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New HDMI Colour Space w/NXE - Page 3

post #61 of 209
"tweaks long asked for have been made to the VGA/HDMI video outputs" http://www.eurogamer.net/article.php?article_id=290745
post #62 of 209
Please remember all Panasonic TVs expect 16-235 levels on VGA, DVI or HDMI, not user configurable. To say all TVs expect 0-255 or VGA or DVI is inaccruate. Actually most TVs expect 16-235 RGB by default unless you switch it to PC setings. This confusion of PC levels and Studio levels will never go away until two camps can come up with a unified standard.
post #63 of 209
Quote:
Originally Posted by Foxbat121 View Post

Please remember all Panasonic TVs expect 16-235 levels on VGA, DVI or HDMI, not user configurable. To say all TVs expect 0-255 or VGA or DVI is inaccruate. Actually most TVs expect 16-235 RGB by default unless you switch it to PC setings. This confusion of PC levels and Studio levels will never go away until two camps can come up with a unified standard.

Sounds like you'r a bit stuffed if you ever want to plug a PC into a Panasonic TV!

The "HDMI Black Level" setting on my Samsung has "Normal" for RGB at PC levels and "Low" for RGB at video levels. I prefer to keep it set to "Normal" because I share the input with many sources including a PC though the AV receiver. The setting is greyed out when I feed it YCbCr. RGB might be undecided, but one thing the camps have agreed on is that YCbCr over HDMI is always video levels.
post #64 of 209
Quote:
Originally Posted by cybersoga View Post

Sounds like you'r a bit stuffed if you ever want to plug a PC into a Panasonic TV!

You just need get a PC with HDMI output. Not a big problem. Not that I ever need to connect a PC to any HDTV. That's just waste of time IMO.
post #65 of 209
Quote:
Originally Posted by Foxbat121 View Post

You just need get a PC with HDMI output. Not a big problem. Not that I ever need to connect a PC to any HDTV. That's just waste of time IMO.

A PC with HDMI output is still going to output RGB with PC Levels, the same as a PC with DVI output or VGA output...
post #66 of 209
Quote:
Originally Posted by Foxbat121 View Post

Please remember all Panasonic TVs expect 16-235 levels on VGA, DVI or HDMI, not user configurable. To say all TVs expect 0-255 or VGA or DVI is inaccruate. Actually most TVs expect 16-235 RGB by default unless you switch it to PC setings. This confusion of PC levels and Studio levels will never go away until two camps can come up with a unified standard.

Not true , most TV's with an actual db-15 VGA port are designed for use as a computer connection (at least here in the USA) . Many of these sets do not even allow non standard PC resolutions via the VGA connection , there are sets from just a couple years ago that will not allow 720p/1080p via the VGA connection . Certainly there are many that allow for both 16-235 and/or 0-255 but most of those would be more recent models (last few years) . If you span the VGA connection on HDTV(s) past then there are far more sets that expect PC levels via VGA than those that expect Video levels ( I used to work in CE sales/management ) .

But again this is all display dependent so just make sure to check .

- Jason
post #67 of 209
Quote:
Originally Posted by cybersoga View Post

"tweaks long asked for have been made to the VGA/HDMI video outputs" http://www.eurogamer.net/article.php?article_id=290745

Thanks for the link , I wonder why I did not see the additional settings in the VGA connected 360 , Hmmm ... .

- Jason
post #68 of 209
Thread Starter 
I know I'm a bit late on this. But if IRE 7.5 is the normal in North America what should I set my Benq w500 to? It's default is 0.0 IRE
post #69 of 209
Quote:
Originally Posted by cybersoga View Post

Sounds like you'r a bit stuffed if you ever want to plug a PC into a Panasonic TV!

The "HDMI Black Level" setting on my Samsung has "Normal" for RGB at PC levels and "Low" for RGB at video levels. I prefer to keep it set to "Normal" because I share the input with many sources including a PC though the AV receiver. The setting is greyed out when I feed it YCbCr. RGB might be undecided, but one thing the camps have agreed on is that YCbCr over HDMI is always video levels.

Yes, YCbCr is always video levels no matter what connection you use -- HDMI, component, whatever. RGB can be either video or PC.
post #70 of 209
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ripeer View Post

I know I'm a bit late on this. But if IRE 7.5 is the normal in North America what should I set my Benq w500 to? It's default is 0.0 IRE

What connection are you using? IRE levels are only relevant for analog connections, not digital.
post #71 of 209
Quote:
Originally Posted by cybersoga View Post

A PC with HDMI output is still going to output RGB with PC Levels, the same as a PC with DVI output or VGA output...

A PC with HDMI output will output YCbCr by default. There is no need to use RGB w/ PC levels. The driver and the video card hardware will do the proper conversion.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DaGamePimp View Post

Not true , most TV's with an actual db-15 VGA port are designed for use as a computer connection (at least here in the USA) . Many of these sets do not even allow non standard PC resolutions via the VGA connection , there are sets from just a couple years ago that will not allow 720p/1080p via the VGA connection . Certainly there are many that allow for both 16-235 and/or 0-255 but most of those would be more recent models (last few years) . If you span the VGA connection on HDTV(s) past then there are far more sets that expect PC levels via VGA than those that expect Video levels ( I used to work in CE sales/management ) .

But again this is all display dependent so just make sure to check .

- Jason

What is not true? I've owned Panasonic TVs (3 different models) and can confirm that it expects 16-235 range via VGA. If you play a video on your PC, it will show with extreme black crush.
post #72 of 209
Quote:
Originally Posted by Foxbat121 View Post

What is not true? I've owned Panasonic TVs (3 different models) and can confirm that it expects 16-235 range via VGA. If you play a video on your PC, it will show with extreme black crush.

I've owned a Panasonic plasma (700u) and it expected PC levels via VGA. It still had black crush, but not because it expected 16-235 -- levels below 16 were visible, I think it crushed everything below 10 or so. Panasonics are just annoying in general.

And what DaGamePimp said is true -- the great majority of TVs expect PC levels on the VGA input. The only ones I've seen that don't are old CRT HDTVs that have an RGB input but weren't ever intended to accept a PC-style signal. They just date from before component became the de facto standard for analog HDTV signals.
post #73 of 209
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by chrisherbert View Post

What connection are you using? IRE levels are only relevant for analog connections, not digital.

HDMI.
Thanks
post #74 of 209
With NXE now out, anyone got any comments? I have just updated mine, first impressions:

Settings were the same as before I updated to NXE. Changed HDMI Colour space to Auto (was on RGB). Reference Levels set to Expanded.

With these settings, video games output RGB with PC levels. DVD outputs YCbCr with video levels (so it looks like when the console outputs YCbCr it ignores the reference levels setting)
post #75 of 209
Hey Jason,

I was in the NXE beta and I did not have the option. However, I use a Hannsp. PC Monitor that gives me the option of Video or PC HDMI. Maybe if I change it to PC I would get the options??? Anyway, currently I am outputting 1080p WS Expanded to monitor via HDMI (Video). I am guessing this is the best choice. This stuff is a little over my head; however, I have yet to run any calibration, but I am guessing the main calibration would be "brightness". Does the Video/PC monitor setting lead to whether the new option shows up? I am away from my system now, or I would check it. Will test tomorrow.

Anyway, not sure why I posted but just wondering if I made the right choice: Video setting over PC....I think so
post #76 of 209
Quote:
Originally Posted by cybersoga View Post

(so it looks like when the console outputs YCbCr it ignores the reference levels setting)

As it should be, since ycbcr always uses video levels.
post #77 of 209
after reading this topic, I'm going to use Auto as well. (HDMI, Expanded)
post #78 of 209
Wondering if I can do the same. But, with my set. It is more tricky. I have a Samsung lcd and it picks the 360 up as RGB. I can adjust hdmi black level in my tv setup. Choices are Low or Normal. I was told Low is for standard video levels and Normal is for PC levels. My tv has 3 hdmi ports. HDMI 1 is used for a hdmi-dvi cable when using a pc. I named the input to PC hdmi black level set to normal. 360 black level set to expanded. Hdmi color space set to rgb and finally 360 set to optimal resolution. Which shows my tv at 1360x768. Native is 1366x768. I hope this is the right way to have it set up. I want things to match up for every thing looks awesome.

Quote:
Originally Posted by FlawlessEdge View Post

after reading this topic, I'm going to use Auto as well. (HDMI, Expanded)
post #79 of 209
Quote:
Originally Posted by KoRn View Post

Wondering if I can do the same. But, with my set. It is more tricky. I have a Samsung lcd and it picks the 360 up as RGB. I can adjust hdmi black level in my tv setup. Choices are Low or Normal. I was told Low is for standard video levels and Normal is for PC levels. My tv has 3 hdmi ports. HDMI 1 is used for a hdmi-dvi cable when using a pc. I named the input to PC hdmi black level set to normal. 360 black level set to expanded. Hdmi color space set to rgb and finally 360 set to optimal resolution. Which shows my tv at 1360x768. Native is 1366x768. I hope this is the right way to have it set up. I want things to match up for every thing looks awesome.

Sounds fine to me for video games, although video (DVD etc) is going to be converted to RGB PC levels having it set like that which isn't quite optimal for video. Personally i'd have the xbox 360 colour space set to auto and let it auto switch. Your TV will still accept YCbCr on that HDMI input even though its setup for PC.
post #80 of 209
Thanks. I was actually thinking about changing it to auto myself. But, thought I would come here first and ask the experts.

Quote:
Originally Posted by cybersoga View Post

Sounds fine to me for video games, although video (DVD etc) is going to be converted to RGB PC levels having it set like that which isn't quite optimal for video. Personally i'd have the xbox 360 colour space set to auto and let it auto switch. Your TV will still accept YCbCr on that HDMI input even though its setup for PC.
post #81 of 209
I have the Sharp LC-37D90U with HDMI 1.2
so is the expanded color only for HDMI 1.3 sets?
Could I use expanded color on this set, its about 2 years
old but it was ahead of its time.
I only play games on my 360 (so RGB?), I save movies for
my PS3.
post #82 of 209
I don't see any new choices for VGA connections. I can't say I'm too surprised.
post #83 of 209
cybersoga,

I have a general question. Since you have a Samsung as well. As I said earlier. I made the adjustment and set hdmi color space to auto as suggested. I was watching some game videos and tried out a dvd. As expected. My tv does the signal change. Because it goes black and then comes back on. You can hear it changing. The only thing I was curious about is this. Since it is changing to the YCbCr signal for movies/videos. Why is every thing still locked out? My only choices still are Contrast, Brightness and Back Light. I thought maybe since it was changing over to that setting. Color, Tint etc would be unlocked? No big deal. Just curious and wanted to make sure its working properly.
post #84 of 209
Ok I want to set some things straight here. I have a Pioneer Elite 151, and when I set the hdmi color space to source and play any 360 game myTV is detecting a RGB signal with 16-235 color space. People need to stop saying the games are in pc color levels, it is simply not true. When I set it to hdmi auto it does the same thing. When I play a HD-DVD movie with source selected the movie plays at YCRCB REC709 with color space 16-235. Now lets look at the reference levels since most people on here are not using this correctly as well. The only time you have to use expanded is if you have a television that expects PC levels, and there are only a few displays that do this, Particularly the first 1080p sets to accept 1080p thru hdmi. Mitsubishi was one display that when fed a 1080p signal with hdmi or vga would look for a 0-255 signal and if not fed one would be washed out. Samsung displays have pretty much been the most versatile in handling both 16-235 and 0-255 from the get go.
The only reason for this is Samsung worked with Microsoft on launching the 360 and had the inside track on what the 360 output color levels were going to be with VGA. I Recommend everyone to set the hdmi color space to auto if your not sure what your display is looking for unless you have a display that you know for 100% can handle any source, then set it to Source. Source will do the least amount of conversion and should yield the best image and reduce lag.
Reference Levels should always be set to standard unless you have an older display that does not accept hdmi at 16-235, or if your using a PC monitor.
There is no reason to use expanded on a TV, and there is no benefit to it.
Infact setting to expanded will on most tv's cause black crush, but even the ones that accept expanded without black crush usually have other errors in color you cant easily detect without knowing what to look for or using a test pattern. For example, my Pioneer Elite 151 will accept and show Expanded from RGB or YCRCB with what looks like a correct image until you look closer, and notice white crush at the very top IRE's. On some displays you will even get Chroma errors by using expanded. Standard is the correct setting to use on 98% of all digital displays that are not computer monitors. There is no difference in image quality on a display that is doing both correctly.
The reason vast amounts of disinformation was injected into consumers regarding color spacing and reference levels was the mistakes Microsoft made with VGA " Sending Video Levels instead of PC when hooked up to a Monitor" and Sony " Sending PC levels thru Hdmi when hooked up to a TV". Both of these mistakes have been fixed finally. So let me repeat there is Zero benefit to using Expanded on 98% of TV's. You should always use auto for hdmi if your not sure what your TV is capable of "if your display can convert RGB to YCRCB without chroma errors". If you have a display that does this correctly setting to source is the best option for image quality and reducing lag.
post #85 of 209
anyone own a Sony Bravia KDL 32L4000 with the 360?

what kind of settings are you using for the 360 and your TV?

My image is way too dark (I own a ps3 and don't have this issue when I turn on RGB Full and Super White on)

On 360 setting are Auto and Standard = image washed out

Auto and Intermediate = better but gets dark in some areas and increasing brightness on TV makes it washed out
post #86 of 209
Tremendous post, Parasite.
post #87 of 209
Quote:
Originally Posted by KoRn View Post

cybersoga,

I have a general question. Since you have a Samsung as well. As I said earlier. I made the adjustment and set hdmi color space to auto as suggested. I was watching some game videos and tried out a dvd. As expected. My tv does the signal change. Because it goes black and then comes back on. You can hear it changing. The only thing I was curious about is this. Since it is changing to the YCbCr signal for movies/videos. Why is every thing still locked out? My only choices still are Contrast, Brightness and Back Light. I thought maybe since it was changing over to that setting. Color, Tint etc would be unlocked? No big deal. Just curious and wanted to make sure its working properly.

You can tell if when TV is being fed YCbCr, because the option "HDMI Black Level" is locked out. Not sure why the other options are locked out when your feeding YCbCr, with my TV it only does that when the input name is PC and it's fed RGB, not YCbCr, maybe it varies on model. If the levels are right with a calibration DVD I wouldn't worry about it.
post #88 of 209
Quote:
Originally Posted by PARASITE View Post

Ok I want to set some things straight here. I have a Pioneer Elite 151, and when I set the hdmi color space to source and play any 360 my is detecting a RGB signal with 16-235 color space. People need to stop saying the games are in pc color levels, it is simply not true. When I set it to hdmi auto it does the same thing. When I play a HD-DVD movie with source selected the movie plays at YCRCB REC709 with color space 16-235. Now lets look at the reference levels since most people on here are not using this correctly as well. The only time you have to use expanded is if you have a television that expects PC levels, and there are only a few displays that do this, Particularly the first 1080p sets to accept 1080p thru hdmi. Mitsubishi was one display that when fed a 1080p signal with hdmi or vga would look for a 0-255 signal and if not fed one would be washed out. Samsung displays have pretty much been the most versatile in handling both 16-235 and 0-255 from the get go.
The only reason for this is Samsung worked with Microsoft on launching the 360 and had the inside track on what the 360 output color levels were going to be with VGA. I Recommend everyone to set the hdmi color space to auto if your not sure what your display is looking for unless you have a display that you know for 100% can handle any source, then set it to Source. Source will do the least amount of conversion and should yield the best image and reduce lag.
Reference Levels should always be set to standard unless you have an older display that does not accept hdmi at 16-235, or if your using a PC monitor.
There is no reason to use expanded on a TV, and there is no benefit to it.
Infact setting to expanded will on most tv's cause black crush, but even the ones that accept expanded without black crush usually have other errors in color you cant easily detect without knowing what to look for or using a test pattern. For example, my Pioneer Elite 151 will accept and show Expanded from RGB or YCRCB with what looks like a correct image until you look closer, and notice white crush at the very top IRE's. On some displays you will even get Chroma errors by using expanded. Standard is the correct setting to use on 98% of all digital displays that are not computer monitors. There is no difference in image quality on a display that is doing both correctly.
The reason vast amounts of disinformation was injected into consumers regarding color spacing and reference levels was the mistakes Microsoft made with VGA " Sending Video Levels instead of PC when hooked up to a Monitor" and Sony " Sending PC levels thru Hdmi when hooked up to a TV". Both of these mistakes have been fixed finally. So let me repeat there is Zero benefit to using Expanded on 98% of TV's. You should always use auto for hdmi if your not sure what your TV is capable of "if your display can convert RGB to YCRCB without chroma errors". If you have a display that does this correctly setting to source is the best option for image quality and reducing lag.

I have a Samsung TV. With HDMI Black Level set to Normal it expects PC levels for RGB over HDMI. This goes with the Expanded reference levels setting on the xbox 360.
The other HDMI Black Level setting, low, is for video levels RGB over HDMI, and goes with the Standard reference levels setting on the xbox 360.

None of this is relevant when the xbox 360 is outputting YCbCr over HDMI, as YCbCr is always video levels.
post #89 of 209
Quote:
Originally Posted by jangaboo View Post

anyone own a Sony Bravia KDL 32L4000 with the 360?

what kind of settings are you using for the 360 and your TV?

My image is way too dark (I own a ps3 and don't have this issue when I turn on RGB Full and Super White on)

On 360 setting are Auto and Standard = image washed out

Auto and Intermediate = better but gets dark in some areas and increasing brightness on TV makes it washed out

I'm not sure I understand, too dark and washed out are usually different ends of the brightness control! Do you mean black crush? I get that in Fallout 3... nothing I can do can fix it so I think the developers screwed up. Eurogamer did some comparisons with the PS3 version and it's not crushed on the PS3 version. Other games, GTA 4 for example look fine.

RGB Full Range (HDMI) set to Full on the PS3 is equivalent to setting the Xbox 360 to Expanded reference levels. Super White on with the PS3 allows WTW and BTB with YCbCr over HDMI, Xbox 360 does that anyway and really I don't know why Sony gives you that option.
post #90 of 209
Quote:
Originally Posted by cybersoga View Post

You can tell if when TV is being fed YCbCr, because the option "HDMI Black Level" is locked out. Not sure why the other options are locked out when your feeding YCbCr, with my TV it only does that when the input name is PC and it's fed RGB, not YCbCr, maybe it varies on model. If the levels are right with a calibration DVD I wouldn't worry about it.

If you set the 360 hdmi color space to source and reference levels to standard, does your samsung still look for pc levels? If not then you should keep it this way, since you will be doing less video conversion and should have a more accurate image with reduced lag.
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