AVS Master Thread: Discussion of Blu Ray Player's Upconversion Performance - Page 6

I may try this as well. It seems to defy logic: hdmi is a pure digital signal, and the source is the same; why should component connections produce a better picture?

For a normal DVD on a plasma HDTV. Does it look better on a standard dvd player, or upscaled on a blu-ray player?

There is no rule. When playing DVDs a BR player is just like a DVD player. There is variability among models as to how well they handle DVD.

Note that proper calibration of the display can make a greater difference in image quality than switching gear.

-Bill

Is it better to turn DVD upscaling on or off on my blu-ray player? The output is still 1080p.

If your player is producing 1080p then it is deinterlacing and scaling the DVD video.

-Bill

I did a test a couple of nights ago to see about upscaling of standard DVDs. I watched a standard DVD played on a Samsung BD-P3600 player on my Samsung 55" HDTV, using HDMI and Component cables. Couldn't tell the difference, even though BD players are supposed to upscale standard DVDs. I thought that the PQ through Component wouldn't approach the PQ played through the HDMI cable. Would I see a difference with a different player?

You aren't seeing much of a difference because the SD DVD is being upscaled both ways, either by the player or by the display. You would see a difference only if the upscaling is done much better by one of your devices. Both being Samsung, I'm guessing upscaling is pretty much done in a similar way with both devices. Yes, you may see a difference with a player that has a better upscaler. Also, you don't say what your settings are. What are you outputting over component? 480i? 480p? 720p? 1080p? And what are you outputting over HDMI? 1080p? 1080i? 720p? 480p?

The TV said 480 over component, not sure over HDMI. SD DVDs are limited to 480 over component cables, so I expected to see a better picture over HDMI. It looked the same.

So, the question is why SD DVDs aren't being upscaled when using the HDMI cable.

I was toying with the idea of buying an Oppo 95 and one of the HD Fury versions, but if SD DVDs aren't upscaled over HDMI, it doesn't look like I'll gain enough to justify the expense.

As was pointed out, when you have a fixed pixel display (any flat panel TV) and you feed it any signal other than the TV's native resolution, there is always upscaling taking place. If the Blu-Ray or DVD player does the upscaling, it will put out a 1080p signal (assuming your TV is 1080p) and the TV will just use it with no upscaling needed. If the player is putting out 480i or 480p, then the TV will do the upscaling to its native resolution. One thing to always check is that you have set the output of an upscaling player to the appropriate resolution of your TV. Your SD DVDs are being upscaled either way.

It is quite possible, as was mentioned in the previous reply, that both your TV and player do equivalent upscaling and therefore you see no difference since the results are the same. You need to try some other device that upscales and see if you see any differences in its performance.

Interesting. I was doing the test to see if buying the new gear would improve the PQ in my home theater. The display down there is a 720P DLP PJ, which I assume doesn't upscale since it's 10 years old. It doesn't have HDMI input, of course.

Jon,

All digital displays, including DLP projectors, have to scale their inputs to match their display resolution. You need to look at the details of the scalers that you're using -- in the player, in the receiver (or pre/pro), in a separate scaler (if that's what you use), and/or in the projector. The visual differences, unless you have defective hardware, tend to be very subtle for most people and can be best seen when using appropriate test patterns, not while watching movies.

What model of projector do you have? I suspect it's capable of scaling 1080i to 720p, since both resolutions are in the original HDTV specs.

A caveat: my understanding is that while those few current-generation Blu-ray players which have component video outputs can be configured to scale to 1080i or 720p over their component video connections, future players will not be allowed to have component video outputs at all. This is due to the "analog sunset" provisions included in the license to use HDMI.

In other words, you need to start considering getting a projector (and other components) with HDMI connectivity.

Thanks, Selden. My PJ is an NEC HT1000. So, you're saying that the 480p or 480i signal put out by my BD player over Component will be upscaled by my PJ? The question is, would a new 1080p PJ with HDMI input look better with SD DVDs. The HDFury supposedly gets around the upscaling restrictions of SD DVDs over Component, which was why I was considering it.

I watched a SD DVD played on a standard DVD player, then on a BD player. Both my wife and I thought the BD player looked better. Were our eyes playing tricks?

Yes. According to the spec sheet I found on the Projector Central site, your projector can handle most of the common scanrates: 1080p60, 1080i, 720p, 576p, 480p, and 480i, scaling them down or up as needed. (I don't see 576i listed, though. That's the standard the PAL/SECAM scanrate).

A native resolution of 1920x1080 would have noticably higher resolution than your current projector's resolution of 1024x768. That alone would make a big difference in your movie and video experience. It might not be entirely good, though. It's amazing how many actors have minor facial defects. (Watching a widescreen presentation letterboxed on your current projector would be not much better than SD. Or do you use an anamorphic lens?)


Probably not. The scaler in your projector is old enough that the newer scaler designs available in current generation hardware probably are better: many of them include features that were only available in high-end scalers just a few years ago.

I'm not using an anamorphic lens. For 16:9 displays, I'm really only seeing 576p. It's really a nice picture, though, and I'd like to at least use the PJ till the bulb goes bad. I have a ways to go, though. Like you say, HD isn't always friendly.

I wouldn't mind buying a nice 1080p PJ, but my room is only wired for Component. HDMI cable install isn't going to happen, as it's technically difficult and I don't want to tear into the walls and ceiling. I'm waiting for wireless transmission from my BD to the ceiling mounted PJ.

If you're enjoying it, by all means keep using it!


Understood.

Some business-class projectors have been available for a while which include wireless and ethernet connectivity. I haven't been following the entertainment projector industry very closely since I got my new projector about 18 months ago, so I don't know if wireless is available in them. (Like you, I don't plan to upgrade for a while. I've only got about 1K hours on a bulb rated for 5K at low power.)

I doubt that BD players will be transmitting on wireless networking for a while, although computers already can, so an HTPC system might work. If your cables are in a conduit, you could consider HDMI over ethernet, although you might have to sacrifice your current cables.

Not that I'm encouraging you to spend all that money now, you understand, just mentioning some possibilities.

The Epson 5010e has wireless capability now. Don't know how many others do. It may take a while for the that technology to mature, but that's okay. My bulb has 260 hours on it, so it's probably good for 500 more movies.

Wow, been awhile since I have been to this wonderful forum. I hope someone has some advice for me.

Back in the day I bought my Samsung DLP HDTV, and a Samsung HD931 upconverting DVD player to go with it. I now have a hefty collection of standard DVDs. I was always very pleased with the upconverting capability of the HD931, with its Faroudja or whatever technology.

Recently the HD931 died, and I looked around for highly rated upconverting standard DVD players. I ended up getting a Philips DVP3560, both for its high marks in upconverting as well as its ability to play PAL discs, and be region free.

Well, its upconverting picture quality strikes me as greatly inferior to what my HD931 could do. I thought a much newer player would be able to upconvert as well or better than something from 2004 for a much cheaper price, but apparently that is not the case. Back then a HD931 was about $300.

Incidentally my TV uses a DVI interface, not HDMI, so I had to use a HDMI-out DVI-in cable to send the signal from the player to the TV. Could this be causing an image quality issue? It seems unlikely since it should just be the video digital signal, which should be exact, but I am no expert.

Anyway, assuming the player is to blame, I am wondering if there is a blu-ray player out there with upconverting capabilities on a par with the old HD931. Or does one need to to find a standard player with older tech similar to the HD931? I have heard of "Oppos" but they seem very rare and quite expensive compared to what the HD931 cost me back then.

Any advice would be appreciated.

HDMI->DVI should give the same performance as HDMI alone. DVI is always (?) RGB color space, so make sure the display is not insisting on YCbCr.

Otherwise, recalibrate for each input device to get the best results.

OPPOs are not rare here.

-Bill

I've always wondered how people are using their AV receiver for upscaling of HDMI signals. I've had 2 BD players so far and both could only output either a fixed resolution you choose or Automatic setting. When I want to use my AV receiver to do the upscaling I would have to manually set my BD player to 480p every time I watch a DVD. Why don't these players have an option to output the original source signal?

Some players do have a Source Direct option. You'll get 480i for DVD and 1080p23.976 for most Blu-rays.

-Bill

Oppo's and the current Sony's support 480i output. When I first got my Sony BDP590 I tested deinterlacing and scaling of the TV vs the AVR vs the player. In no case did my AVR produce the best picture.

Thanks. Unfortunately I don't know how to recalibrate and I have read it can destroy your TV if you don't know what you are doing. Can't afford to hire someone to do it either.

It sounds like Oppo's are the way to go nowadays for serious quality upconversion combined with blu-ray capability. I don't understand all the audio stuff so the BDP-103 sounds like the unit for someone like me, who mostly cares about high video quality from a standard DVD.

Operating the user controls with a calibration disc can do no harm, and the results can be very impressive.

-Bill

As I recall, the "destroying your TV" warnings were for CRTs. Burn-in of the phosphors and over-stressing their high-voltage power supplies were possibilities if you set the brightness and contrast too high. Both are irrelevant for modern solid-state TVs and projectors.

Modern BD players in the $200 range, like the Sony BDP-S790 and Panasonic DMP-BDT500 can be a cost-effective alternative to Oppo players (which start at about $500). Both of those players include a variety of upscaling options.

Hm, it looks like Sony's S790 is among the best when it comes to DVD upconversion, which is one of the main selling points in my case. It was recommended to me in the other thread too. I was thinking about Oppo, but this seems to be great alternative price-wise. Any idea how much better is S790 compared to an aging Pioneer BDP320?

Actually I had never heard of calibration until I got my DLP back in (2004?), and I read then that if you went into the hidden technician-only service menu and fiddled with the settings you might end up permanently losing the picture (since it would go black and you could not see to undo what you had done, or something along those lines). It certainly sounded intimidating and a lot of people recommended hiring a professional to calibrate HDTVs.

Thanks very much for mentioning this, now that I look into it a lot of people seem to think the Sony has the same upconverting quality as an Oppo. Hopefully it is better than the Philips DVP3560, which really disappointed me after my Samsung HD931.

I am sure the Oppo has features the Samsung doesn't, at that price, but I suspect I would not know how to take advantage of them.

Speaking of TV calibration when getting a new DVD player, what do you guys think of this? Best Buy has a free service for "Silver" members that says:

"TV Calibration – Having an HDTV is one thing. Having it personalized to your exact needs is another. Our ISF-certified installers will come to your home and calibrate your HDTV so you're seeing it the way it was meant to be seen."

Is this worth doing, or is it worth what you pay for it (nothing) ? Anyone know whether they go into the service menus, or just use the user controls?