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Input lag scared me away :( Please help

post #1 of 40
11/9/08 at 4:37pm
Thread Starter 
I recently settled on getting the Samsung a650 or a750 depending on their prices this holiday season; however, I wanted to further my research on HDTVs before I became positive. This is what brings me to my topic.

After reading several post on this website regarding input lag, I'm starting to turn away from ol' Sammy (with its lack of configuring Game mode) and even LCDs in general. I know it's not a big deal to some people, but I own several racing and first-person shooting games and having no controller lag compared to a tad makes a huge difference when it comes to the next sharp turn or that one last bullet to kill the enemy.

Some people have said to purchase a Plasma, others have asked me to get a Sony HDTV. And that is why I turn to you, AVS members, to see if I can learn more about input lag and your opinions on Samsung as well as other HDTV manufacturers.
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post #2 of 40
11/9/08 at 6:36pm
Well, I just got the A750 and the input lag is real, I'm afraid. The set is going back.
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post #3 of 40
11/9/08 at 7:16pm
do a search for a thread I started on best LCD for gaming. I had narrowed it down to the samsung 630 and Sony W4100, and chose to go with the Sony due to the samsung input lag and lack of configurable game mode. I compared them in store and the sound on the Sony is better too.
Good luck.
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post #4 of 40
11/9/08 at 8:13pm
the pannys dont really have a problem with that
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post #5 of 40
11/9/08 at 8:18pm
Are you aware of the PC mode thing with the sammys? It alleviates the lag problem for 1080p HDMI sources but you can still adjust the important settings. Won't work for other resolutions though, so you're stuck with game mode for a Wii or an older system. VGA also doesn't lag much, if you're an owner of an older 360.
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post #6 of 40
11/9/08 at 8:29pm
Does the lag improve with the sammys if you take AMP off?
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post #7 of 40
11/10/08 at 2:41am
Mooey this is what ive learned since i started shopping for a gameing only TV.
-Avoid anything that says samsung A### on it.Way to many negative posts about them
-Toshiba... I wanna beleive there turning a corner but not risking 1700 bucks on em
-Sharp stuff is still banding
-Vizio sucks
-LG i find is kinda overpriced
-Plasma is still to scary to me
-OLED afforadable in 2014

At the moment im playing games on my Sony Rear proj 60A3000.I just want a TV to play games on.After 2 years of reading these forums im pretty much set on getting the Sony 46Z4100.I dont need a TV with mindblowing blowing blacks when 90% of the games i plan on playing have nice big explosions going off every 2 secs.
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post #8 of 40
11/10/08 at 5:49am
Quote:
Originally Posted by tubby View Post

Does the lag improve with the sammys if you take AMP off?

If game mode is on, then AMP is already off. You should not be gaming with AMP.
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post #9 of 40
11/10/08 at 5:55am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mooey View Post

And that is why I turn to you, AVS members, to see if I can learn more about input lag and your opinions on Samsung as well as other HDTV manufacturers.

The Samsungs definitely have lag, even with Game Mode "on" (1080p signal via HDMI).

I recently tried purchasing a Sony XBR6 after the positive reviews here, but that's also a no-go. At 1080p/HDMI, there's 80ms lag with Game Mode off and 24ms lag with Game Mode on (as a comparison, my Westinghouse LVM-37w3 is under 8ms).

I'm in the process of trying to acquire a newer, larger set that isn't plagued with lag issues, and I may have made a breakthrough. I plan on making a new thread for this in a few days if it works out.
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post #10 of 40
11/10/08 at 6:24am
I actually have a question concerning lag. If a set is in the -, for example -8 for lag, what would that equate to, good or bad?
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post #11 of 40
11/10/08 at 10:52am
As indicated in other sites the still-not-fully-understood "input lag" seems to be paticular with VA-type panels which Samsung manufactures. The otherwise inferior TN panels (generally) seem to have little to no input lag, the same (generally, again) for superior S-IPS & H-IPS panels which Panasonic now uses. There may be a connection with overdrive and other video processing that can accompany VA panels -- which the other panel types (generally) do not use.

Having written that, in general day-to-day use, even with video I'm not noticing an input-lag problem with VA-type panels -- even with light game playing. However, I could understand the issue with detail-intense games.
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post #12 of 40
11/10/08 at 11:49am
i've played rockband on an 850 with amp on low and can gold star many songs, input lag is no big deal.
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post #13 of 40
11/10/08 at 11:57am
I have Sharps and use my Xbox, GC and others on it and have had no issues of lag. I also play first person shooter games (Halo 1&2, COD) and have seen this issue brought up, but never experienced it on my sets.

I was also told that Sharp is really good for this as well. Sharp does (or did) make a set specifically for gaming at one point these sets have a GP in the model number such as LC32GP3U.
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post #14 of 40
11/10/08 at 12:57pm
I had the opportunity to compare an Eizo ($2500USD-S-IPS) and a LaCie 324($999-S-PVA) side by side in a dual monitor configuration. Supposedly the LaCie has ~40ms input lag. Either the two displays had the same input lag or the fact that both were connected to a Mac but I couldn't tell the difference with an open window and photograph between the two displays when moving up/down or side/side.
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post #15 of 40
11/10/08 at 4:21pm
Do yo think this is a deal breaker for the casual weekend GT-5 /Dirt driver on ps3? Is this something I am really going to notice on the sammy a650? I have a 5 yo dlp projector now and have noticed NO lag whatsoever.
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post #16 of 40
11/10/08 at 5:38pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by tubby View Post

Do yo think this is a deal breaker for the casual weekend GT-5 /Dirt driver on ps3? Is this something I am really going to notice on the sammy a650? I have a 5 yo dlp projector now and have noticed NO lag whatsoever.

- It depends on how easily you can spot lag. IMO, it's much easier to spot in fighting games than other types of games that are more forgiving and do not require moves performed within certain frames.

There's a GREAT thread with input delay numbers and measurements. The last few pages have Samsung and Sharp measurements.
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...=558125&page=1
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post #17 of 40
11/10/08 at 5:57pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tree Dude View Post

If game mode is on, then AMP is already off. You should not be gaming with AMP.

+1 to that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by davez82 View Post

i've played rockband on an 850 with amp on low and can gold star many songs, input lag is no big deal.

You can compensate for lag on RB though, not in fps's or any other games I know of.
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post #18 of 40
11/10/08 at 6:08pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by davez82 View Post

i've played rockband on an 850 with amp on low and can gold star many songs, input lag is no big deal.

Same here, I've been gaming on my samsung 52850 for a month now and I have yet to feel like my gaming has been effected in any way. Just got gears of war 2 and I hit the timed reload everytime with no problem, I would think if there was any real bad lag that would screw up my timing. I do have to say that gears looks mindblowing on this TV!
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post #19 of 40
11/10/08 at 6:16pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by fubarduck View Post

I recently tried purchasing a Sony XBR6 after the positive reviews here, but that's also a no-go. At 1080p/HDMI, there's 80ms lag with Game Mode off and 24ms lag with Game Mode on (as a comparison, my Westinghouse LVM-37w3 is under 8ms).

How did you measure that? I did quite a bit of game testing on an XBR6 before decided to go that route and I wasn't really able to detect much input lag. But then I suppose the only games that really need uber-low-lag are the music games.
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post #20 of 40
11/10/08 at 6:19pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by JakiChan View Post

How did you measure that? I did quite a bit of game testing on an XBR6 before decided to go that route and I wasn't really able to detect much input lag. But then I suppose the only games that really need uber-low-lag are the music games.

JakiChan, I think I'm in the same boat you are. I saw your posts on the Denon 3808ci thread and am a little worried about the Sony/Denon compatibility. Let me know if you find any low lag sets.
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post #21 of 40
11/10/08 at 6:24pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by tokerblue View Post

JakiChan, I think I'm in the same boat you are. I saw your posts on the Denon 3808ci thread and am a little worried about the Sony/Denon compatibility. Let me know if you find any low lag sets.

I'm still going to have the set delivered. There are those saying that they can't detect it and can still play the games. There are others saying it's impossible. Given so wide a difference in opinions I'm going to give it a try. I think some folks do "testing" and look at numbers but if you did a blind test they wouldn't know....
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post #22 of 40
11/10/08 at 6:28pm
If I forget to set my TV to PC mode before I play a game on my PS3, I instantly notice the lag... I guess it might be because I'm mostly a PC gamer and use a CRT for that, so the lag sticks out in a big way. I can still play with it for most games, since the precision requirements for most console games are pretty low, but why would I want to?
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post #23 of 40
11/10/08 at 6:29pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by JakiChan View Post

I'm still going to have the set delivered. There are those saying that they can't detect it and can still play the games. There are others saying it's impossible. Given so wide a difference in opinions I'm going to give it a try. I think some folks do "testing" and look at numbers but if you did a blind test they wouldn't know....

- I think it's usually due to the types of games that people play. Fighting game fans usually detect lag much more easily since moves can't be pulled off consistently. Especially just frame type moves.

I currently have a 1st Gen HD-ILA (720p) with about a 20-30ms delay (based on camera pictures of my laptop and TV). The delay isn't noticeable in 90% of the games I play, but I do notice it in games like Soul Calibur IV and Virtua Fighter 5. I play both in native 720p resolution.
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post #24 of 40
11/10/08 at 6:34pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by tokerblue View Post

- I think it's usually due to the types of games that people play. Fighting game fans usually detect lag much more easily since moves can't be pulled off consistently. Especially just frame type moves.

Well, folks on the XBR6 thread have said they can play RockBand just fine, so I'm not sure what to think.

I have a Hitachi 50V500A. It's an LCD RPTV. I'm not really sure how best to try and measure the lag as connecting a computer via the DVI port is speshul. And I can't find anyone whose talked about it. If the XBR6 is comparable to the 50V500A then I'll be fine, I suppose. I've never noticed it before. I mostly play FPS and such. I'd rather not buy rock band just to measure lag - although if you can do it with a controller I suppose I can borrow the game from a friend.
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post #25 of 40
11/10/08 at 6:42pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by JakiChan View Post

Well, folks on the XBR6 thread have said they can play RockBand just fine, so I'm not sure what to think.

- I've seen various posts that say it's around 24-30ms, which is about a 2 frame delay. I was looking at the KDL-52W4000 and it is listed as having little to no lag on a UK site. I assumed that the KDL-52W4100 was the US version, but I'm not sure.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JakiChan View Post

I'm not really sure how best to try and measure the lag as connecting a computer via the DVI port is speshul. And I can't find anyone whose talked about it.

- If you have a HTPC and a CRT (assumed 0ms lag), then you can take a picture.
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...7#post14548547
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post #26 of 40
11/10/08 at 6:49pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by tokerblue View Post

- I've seen various posts that say it's around 24-30ms, which is about a 2 frame delay. I was looking at the KDL-52W4000 and it is listed as having little to no lag on a UK site. I assumed that the KDL-52W4100 was the US version, but I'm not sure.

Somehow, given the supposedly similarity between the sets, I doubt the W series has no lag and all of a sudden the XBR6 has 2x or 3x the lag, especially in game mode.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tokerblue View Post

If you have a HTPC and a CRT (assumed 0ms lag), then you can take a picture.

No CRT. The only other display I have is a Dell LCD.
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post #27 of 40
11/10/08 at 6:52pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by JakiChan View Post

Somehow, given the supposedly similarity between the sets, I doubt the W series has no lag and all of a sudden the XBR6 has 2x or 3x the lag, especially in game mode.

- Those were my exact same thoughts. The only explanation that I could think of was that the XBR6 had a better Bravia processing engine, which required more time.
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post #28 of 40
11/10/08 at 7:35pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by tokerblue View Post

- It depends on how easily you can spot lag. IMO, it's much easier to spot in fighting games than other types of games that are more forgiving and do not require moves performed within certain frames.

There's a GREAT thread with input delay numbers and measurements. The last few pages have Samsung and Sharp measurements.
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...=558125&page=1

Interesting - seems using 360 to the 650 via VGA yields the lowest lag, 26 ms - probably less if you use 1080p output (so the TV doesn't have to scale the res like in his test).
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post #29 of 40
11/10/08 at 7:36pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by tokerblue View Post

- I've seen various posts that say it's around 24-30ms, which is about a 2 frame delay. I was looking at the KDL-52W4000 and it is listed as having little to no lag on a UK site. I assumed that the KDL-52W4100 was the US version, but I'm not sure.


- If you have a HTPC and a CRT (assumed 0ms lag), then you can take a picture.
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...7#post14548547

According to the lag thread, a CRT is more like 15-30 ms lag.
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post #30 of 40
11/10/08 at 9:52pm
Lag is nothing new. Upscaling DVD users have noticed out-of-sync audio/video for years and some units have built in adjustment to sync up audio and video
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