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Paradigm Reference Signature Sub 25 - Page 3

post #61 of 1378
I enjoyed reading Randall's review but one thing really bothered me. He only tested it on a 110v outlet.

From my understanding, what really separates this sub from many of its high end competitors is the level of dynamic headroom and exceptional sound quality at high spl. To what degree it separates itself from the competition is clearly dependent on how much clean power the amplifier can continually to deliver to this massively overbuilt driver.

I think it's great if it can outshine the f113 on a 110v outlet in both perceived effortlessness and output. After all, the amp is supposed to be far more efficient than all of the other class D based sub on the market. BUT guys, cmon this thing is 4k retail. How can Soundstage! publish a review on something this significant without the 220/240v outlet it deserves?

Gear mentioned in this thread:

post #62 of 1378
No matter how good this subwoofer is, honsety it's not worth $4000. Also, the idea of having 220v powering the thing is outrages to say the least. You can easily buy two Submersives.
post #63 of 1378
Why are there no objective measurements provided in Randall's review?
post #64 of 1378
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hksvr4 View Post

No matter how good this subwoofer is, honsety it's not worth $4000.

Why not?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hksvr4 View Post

Also, the idea of having 220v powering the thing is outrages to say the least.

There is a reason firefighters use ~4" hoses instead of garden hoses.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hksvr4 View Post

You can easily buy two Submersives.

The Submersive, as good as it is, is not small and is only offered in one finish.
post #65 of 1378
Soundstage's measurements are usually done at the NRC in Canada. I have measurement equipment that I use for loudspeaker placement and evaluation; however, I am not experienced in measuring subwoofers. I did provide an in-room response on page 2 of this thread. I also included a screen shot from the PBK-1 software, but it didn't make it to the final review.
post #66 of 1378
Quote:
Originally Posted by fanbrain View Post


The Submersive, as good as it is, is not small and is only offered in one finish.


For the price of the Sub25, you could easily order a submersive naked and have a custom finish for it.... I highly doubt the Sub 25 is in the same league as a submersive.... trust me..

It may not be as pretty, but your ears and body will thank you in the long run...
post #67 of 1378
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hksvr4 View Post

No matter how good this subwoofer is, honsety it's not worth $4000. Also, the idea of having 220v powering the thing is outrages to say the least. You can easily buy two Submersives.

This is an ignorant comment to make. Some people want maximum performance out of a relatively compact enclosure and see the value in the level of control the built in dsp and $300 perfect bass kit provide. Some people don't like the group delay issue with vented designs when listening to music just so that they can have more output for movies. For some people, parting with $4000 for a product like this is not that big of an issue.
post #68 of 1378
Quote:
Originally Posted by ghopkin View Post

This is an ignorant comment to make. Some people want maximum performance out of a relatively compact enclosure and see the value in the level of control the built in dsp and $300 perfect bass kit provide. Some people don't like the group delay issue with vented designs when listening to music just so that they can have more output for movies. For some people, parting with $4000 for a product like this is not that big of an issue.

Thanks for adding.....

I'm going to go now.
post #69 of 1378
Hey guys, I contacted Nick from Anthem to get a few answers concerning the SUB 25. Nick has been intimately involved in the development of the SUB 25, especially in the implementation of the Perfect Bass Kit. He has been at Anthem for a long time and I have found him to be a great source for accurate information concerning many different topics throughout the audio world. Anyway, Nick will join the conversation here so that everyone's questions will be addressed.

Thanks

Randall Smith
post #70 of 1378
I don't get all the hostility about this. Paradigm makes good products that while not cheap (especially Reference or Signature), usually perform as well or better than many higher priced products. My first sub was the Servo-15 V1 and while it is cerainly outclassed in output by many of the subs today it still sounds as good or better than most.

If the sub 25 can truly take advantage of the higher power output of a 220 v line, then all the better. I look forward to seeing more objective tests of the sub.

Regards,

Dennis
post #71 of 1378
As Randall mentioned I got to know the model quite well through testing its software, then setting up and using multiple Sub 25s in the factory's theater. I'm also familiar with the lineage beginning with the Servo 15 v1. Some clarifications regarding this thread:

Residential 120V circuits are almost always 15A or 20A and with that the Sub 25 amp can deliver 3000W to the voice coil's minimum impedance for a few seconds. After that the DSP lowers output so a dedicated 15A breaker doesn't trip. This intentional characteristic was modeled within a 15A breaker's time constant. With 208V or higher the Sub 25 can put out 3000W continuously. In North America 240V circuits and receptacles are used with window air conditioners and pumps. Converting a dedicated 3-conductor 120V (non-Edison) circuit to 240V is a minor operation, with a receptacle change and 2-pole breaker instead of single-pole (15A or 20A according to wire gauge, or typically 10A in 240V countries). If the outlet to be converted is not a dedicated circuit, it has to be turned into one - contact a licensed electrician. 240V is really not needed. With the bassiest music track that we use for testing subs, average consumption through the track is 800W if level is set so its peaks are at 3000W. This doesn't trip a dedicated 120V 15A circuit, and this is synthesized bass that is practically a sine wave.

With 208V or more the Sub 25 amp can actually put out 4500W but since the cone can't use it the sub is rated at 3000W, not 4500W. This is the opposite of how some other manufacturers rate their subs when amp power exceeds driver rating. Also, the Sub 25 power figures are real measured continuous watts, not "equivalent" power that some manufacturers quote based on amp performance with a lighter load - it's like saying a small car that goes 60 mph (100 km/h) uphill has an engine that puts out 500 HP when a 10 ton trailer is pulled.

----------

Another factor in getting all this power is active power factor correction, which changes PF from around 0.65 to 0.99. All power supplies have poor power factor. Lower cost passive correction can take it up to about 0.85. Power factor represents the phase difference between AC voltage and current. The lower this is, the lower the real power because current can only flow while the voltage cycle peaks, resulting in a spiky current cycle instead of a sinusoidal one.

----------

When on but with no input signal the Sub consumes 26W. If this seems low for a 3 kW amp remember that it's a class D amp with a switching power supply. When it's playing, consumption depends on how loud it's playing. When in standby mode the consumption was too low for the meter I used - probably well under a watt.

----------

Due to high voltage inside a permanent grill was indeed needed to pass safety regulations. The certifications body later recognized that people aren't normally going to push things through the cone but what's done is done.

-----------

The SPL figures below are from anechoic measurements. For in-room response add 3 dB per nearby boundary, so if the sub is in a corner add 9 dB to all the numbers (that's where the data sheet's 125 dB of clean in-room bass comes from).

The Sub 25 puts out 9 Hz cleanly up to around 89 dB - after that it's limited by the DSP. We could make it go louder but it won't be clean. This is still better than not having 9 Hz response at all, and it's not like some manufacturers who say that if you input 8 Hz you'll get 120 dB out when what they're not saying is that it's loaded with distortion and/or containing no fundamental tone to speak of. From 17 Hz and up Sub 25 output is linear up to 108 dB. Beyond that the DSP rolls off the deepest bass off and the remainder goes up to 116 dB cleanly.

--------------

A proper setup and good source material says the rest.

Incidentally if you're using ARC, PBK usually isn't needed regardless of the number of subs (the greater the number, the more even the pressure around the room - it self-corrects). Just remember that when using multiple subs they must be balanced to one another before running ARC. This can be done by setting them individually to a reference SPL - usually below 70 dB each to account for the other subs - or by adjusting levels so peaks and nulls at the listening position set up by one sub are complemented by the other(s).

NOTE1: Subwoofer correction such as PBK only accounts for one sub at a time. The overall response is different when all subs play together, so overall correction in a pre-pro, such as ARC, must be run in a multi-sub setup after each sub has been individually corrected.

NOTE2: **Results can still be better if each sub in a multi-sub setup is PBK'd before running ARC. The only way to find by how much is to try both ways.

For more info the quickest way to reach me is to e-mail tech at anthemav dot com.
post #72 of 1378
djarchow,
I'm sure most will agree with you. I sure do. But subwoofers have come a long way since you servo 15 v.1 and many companies today offer equal or better performance for a lot less. That's where the question comes, where is the extra money going to? The finish is one thing paradigm is known for. The signature series is one of the most beautiful speakers I've ever seen. I really hope the sub 25 trumps the f113 so JLA can come up with something new, and they can battle for the king of great performing, beautiful sub title.
post #73 of 1378
Thanks Nick. Your input is appreciated.
post #74 of 1378
Thank you, Nick, for all those details. I have one question. You mentioned anechoic levels of 108db at 17hz and peak clean levels of 116db at higher frequencies. Could you tell me the distance that the measuring mic was from the sub?
post #75 of 1378
Nick,

Thanks alot for your input. One question...

What portion of the deepest bass is rolled off as the volume is increased past 108db? Does the frequency at which the dsp rolls off the bass increase as you approach 116 db or is this fixed with the dsp just changing the slope of the filter with increasing volume?

Cheers,
G
post #76 of 1378
for ghopkin: From 108 to 116 dB anechoic output (that's 117 to 125 when the sub is in a corner), bottom end rolloff slides as output gets higher. From what I've seen just about all subs made these days do it one way or another - nothing controversial.

for mojomike: 2m physically but all measurements are referenced to 1m. For higher frequencies it's easy since doubling distance makes a 6 dB difference but for lower frequencies it's not so easy. The chamber has to be calibrated and that involves modeling through comparing the known output from a accelerometer-equipped transducer to what the mic hears in that situation, and also using experience and knowledge based on building and measuring other chambers, and also using independent measurements. There's a sort of room correction going on here too and the mic distance alone doesn't say much.
post #77 of 1378
Thanks Nick!

Is there really no way to remove the grill without damaging anything?
post #78 of 1378
Quote:
Originally Posted by chengbin View Post

There are a few ways to look at this:

1. Simple physics will tell you that is impossible. No single 15'' driver in a sealed enclosure can be -3dB at 9Hz without massive EQ boost at the low end.

2. They don't tell you anything about its 9Hz capability. They just said it can reach 9Hz. A 1'' tweeter can produce 9Hz, but at what SPL?

3. What if it's -3dB at 9Hz at 50dB? A subwoofer need to produce 110dB at 9Hz for useable 9Hz output. I can tell you that by rough estimate, it will take at least 5 SUB25 to produce 9Hz at 110dB.

I'm sure the SUB25 will be a fantastic sub, but the price/performance ratio is nowhere near ID sub's. I'm not even sure if it can outperform the SVS PB13 Ultra, an example of an excellent ID sub.

You've got to be kidding! A 13" 750 Watt sub couldn't possible do anything close to this 15" class D 3000watt RMS sub could do. What planet are you on? I've heard this sub in a freinds audio store, unreal. He has done installs using ONE of these subs and drywall came off the studs, literally fell onto the floor.
post #79 of 1378
Sound Master, you have to excuse chengbin, he knows too much information on the ID subs.
post #80 of 1378
IMO the Studio series Sub 15 plays cleaner than the SVS pb13 ultra.
post #81 of 1378
Sound&Vision just recently did a review on the Signature W5 on-wall speaker system featuring the Sub 25 subwoofer. Here what they had to say about the sub:

Measurements: 20-150 +-2.1 dB

"Peak bass output of the Sub 25 subwoofer is a frightening 115 dB at 40 Hz. Average output at 10% distortion or lower between 20 and 80 Hz is 109.5 dB. And usable bass extension is extraordinarily deep at 18 Hz."
post #82 of 1378
Quote:
Originally Posted by skool View Post

Sound&Vision just recently did a review on the Signature W5 on-wall speaker system featuring the Sub 25 subwoofer. Here what they had to say about the sub:

Measurements: 20-150 +-2.1 dB

"Peak bass output of the Sub 25 subwoofer is a frightening 115 dB at 40 Hz. Average output at 10% distortion or lower between 20 and 80 Hz is 109.5 dB. And usable bass extension is extraordinarily deep at 18 Hz."

Not bad...were these tests done in-room or in quasi-anechoic conditions? And at what distance were the measurements taken?

EDIT: Nevermind, I didn't see Nick's posts above which contain anechoic output numbers. Very impressive indeed, and the sub is beautiful to boot. Looks like Paradigm has created a true reference subwoofer with the new Sub 25.
post #83 of 1378
Quote:
Originally Posted by skool View Post

Sound&Vision just recently did a review on the Signature W5 on-wall speaker system featuring the Sub 25 subwoofer. Here what they had to say about the sub:

Measurements: 20-150 +-2.1 dB

"Peak bass output of the Sub 25 subwoofer is a frightening 115 dB at 40 Hz. Average output at 10% distortion or lower between 20 and 80 Hz is 109.5 dB. And usable bass extension is extraordinarily deep at 18 Hz."

Have a look at the following graph for the SubMersive at listening position.



125 dB at 36Hz, 110 dB at 16Hz, and 101 dB at 8Hz! There seems to be a suck-out around 15Hz which is room related.
post #84 of 1378
Kain,

The sumersive is not the only sub.
post #85 of 1378
Quote:
Originally Posted by thecutter View Post

Kain,

The sumersive is not the only sub.



Just comparing the performance of a $3,999 subwoofer to a $1,995 one.
post #86 of 1378
Quote:
Originally Posted by lalakersfan34 View Post

Not bad...were these tests done in-room or in quasi-anechoic conditions? And at what distance were the measurements taken?

EDIT: Nevermind, I didn't see Nick's posts above which contain anechoic output numbers. Very impressive indeed, and the sub is beautiful to boot. Looks like Paradigm has created a true reference subwoofer with the new Sub 25.

The quote from the other post came from Tom Nuisane's measurements which is always taken in his room. See the S&V website for more data.
post #87 of 1378
Is this just a coincidence? >> Sub 25
post #88 of 1378
Thread Starter 
My Reference Signature SUB25 arrived!
Unpacking the beast:

Underside:


Topside:

Unveiled:


The finish is very good:


Initial quick, quick impression with 120V is very good, it is a big step up from my Paradigm Servo 15A. I will not have time to set it up with the PBK-1 kit until next week... sometime after that 240V will be run and a complete calibartion and experimentation with room placement will occur.. fun times are ahead!
post #89 of 1378
I look forward to hearing your thoughts. I am sure it will be impressive.

I would be curious if with the same MV the sub would produce more output on test material at 110 vs 220? You would have to be pushing it at the time of course.
post #90 of 1378
Quote:
Originally Posted by shiznit View Post

My Reference Signature SUB25 arrived!

Initial quick, quick impression with 120V is very good, it is a big step up from my Paradigm Servo 15A. I will not have time to set it up with the PBK-1 kit until next week... sometime after that 240V will be run and a complete calibartion and experimentation with room placement will occur.. fun times are ahead!

Congrats shiznit....

The Signature Subs are truly beautiful, I have always lusted after them, but just couldn't justify the cost myself....

I hope you enjoy it for years to come...
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