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Band of Brothers DVD, HBO MPEG-2, HD DVD & Blu-ray comparison *PIX* - Page 5

post #121 of 257
Quote:
Originally Posted by eric.exe View Post

There's not another high quality source to compare them to, so you have no idea what they could have looked like.

what is your point exactly?, all those titles I listed have very fine film grain visible that cannot survive any level of DNR, Every Which Way is the best example, that is all that matters

-Gary

Gear mentioned in this thread:

post #122 of 257
Quote:
Originally Posted by rdgrimes View Post

I can't speak for anyone else, but it would seem that the uproar is not so much about the actual effects of DNR on any particular movie as it is about the use of DNR in the first place. The only "noise" in the image is that which was put there by the makers of the film, so the use of DNR does violate the original intent of the filmmakers. You can achieve more or less similar results by simply turning down the sharpness setting on your monitor or player. Many people do prefer a slightly softer image, and if the results are pleasing to you than by all means do so. The issue here is that the studio is making that decision for you and it cannot be "undone".

Even if we had never had the HD-DVD set to compare, the comparison of the broadcast image to the BD set reveals the DNR just as well.

You're confusing things here. First of all, on a properly calibrated monitor, most of the time Sharpness will actually be set to 0. The effect that sharpness can simulate (when cranked up) is edge enhancement.

However, many monitors actually have built-in noise reduction that you can turn on, which really makes DNR completely pointless, except as a way to piss off purists.

As for the Band of Brothers transfer - I've seen nothing in these images that goes beyond what's done in the vast majority of Warner's titles - in other words, every single Warner title I've seen with the exception of Speed Racer, which already had airbrushing on the actors and was otherwise mostly CG.

Could Band of Brothers look better? Sure. And I'm pissed that it doesn't. But people are making this out to be much more than it is. It'd be nice if someone could convince Warner that they shouldn't filter all of their titles but they've already shown time and time again that they really don't give a **** about what we think - all they do is feed us the same old crap, again and again and again.
post #123 of 257
Quote:
Originally Posted by ZebraMajor View Post

So I'll ask an obvious question:

Is there a Japanese Blu-ray release of BOB planned and if so, is the U.S. BR release (with DNR) being reused (because Japan is in the same region as U.S. right?) or will they use the existing Japanese HD-DVD master because Japan is a separate market?

Good thinking. I'll keep holding off for now and see if a better version is released somewhere for a decent price..
post #124 of 257
The use of DNR is disappointing, but I'm curious, how apparent would it be on a 42 inch 768p set?
post #125 of 257
probably not bad at all.
post #126 of 257
I still think it's the way Warner uses the VC-1 codec and not DNR. If any of the other studios that still use VC-1 were to encode it like .... weinstein(?). Weinsten and Warner are the only VC-1 studios left?? at least Uni got it right with Doomsday when they used it.

It would probably look completely identical to the HD-DVD. Now if Warner would have just used the same AVC encode, well then they would have to look the same. Stupid studio/codec exclusivity. Switch teams Warner, everyones doing it.
post #127 of 257
Yes, clearly it's the fault of that horrible VC1 codec. After all, look how bad HOW THE WEST WAS WON turned out...

In case you missed it, the above is sarcasm. Damn, I thought this codec vs. codec crap died with the format war. Guess not...

Vincent

Quote:
Originally Posted by shadowrage View Post

I still think it's the way Warner uses the VC-1 codec and not DNR. If any of the other studios that still use VC-1 were to encode it like .... weinstein(?). Weinsten and Warner are the only VC-1 studios left?? at least Uni got it right with Doomsday when they used it.

It would probably look completely identical to the HD-DVD. Now if Warner would have just used the same AVC encode, well then they would have to look the same. Stupid studio/codec exclusivity. Switch teams Warner, everyones doing it.
post #128 of 257
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vincent Pereira View Post

Yes, clearly it's the fault of that horrible VC1 codec. After all, look how bad HOW THE WEST WAS WON turned out...
Vincent

No, no, no. I'm criticizing warner(and the way they do their encodes, Doomsday is 5 star quality). If they were open to more codecs they could have simply done what they love to do - port encodes. Same goes for Sony and Starship Troopers.

I'm ordering How the West Was Won now.
I bet if you guys had a version of that from another studio, you wouldn't think the Warner version looked that good after all.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vincent Pereira View Post

In case you missed it, the above is sarcasm. Damn, I thought this codec vs. codec crap died with the format war. Guess not...

There's an emoticon that makes it easy.
The codec vs codec crap has died.... for every studio but Warner. Sorry, I had to.

Does anyone one have HBO HD caps for Generation Kill? If Warner 'DNR's that, there's nothing left to watch.
post #129 of 257
Quote:
Originally Posted by bunkaroo View Post

My guess is the HD DVD master is entirely separate from what was used for the US Blu-Ray. Unfortunately, since I believe it was Toshiba who released the Japanese HD DVD set, I doubt they'll be interested in releasing on Blu-Ray.

Showgate released BoB in Japan and they used to be Toshiba Entertainment before Toshiba sold that subcompany to another Japanese company.

Showgate actually announced their first Blu-ray for 17th of December, it's Resident Evil (Biohazard) which they released earlier on HD DVD in Japan as well (just about 1 year before the BD release).

There haven't been any other BD announcements from them yet but it's possible that they would release BoB on BD in Japan at some point as well. I think the price would be about the same as the HD DVD set had though.

I have the HD DVD set (got it on release day) and haven't planned on buying the BD set at all in this case.
post #130 of 257
Warner's smoothed over grain has never looked like classic DNR to me.. perhaps it's just the noise reduction pre-processing of the VC-1 encoder that they use.

The claim that the difference will only be visible in still shots, though.. I have both the HD DVDs and the Blu-ray set and the difference is enormous in motion IMO. Band of Brothers is supposed to have very heavy grain and the HD DVDs reproduce that beautifully, but the grain in the BDs looks much finer in motion which badly ruins the mood of the series for me.
post #131 of 257
Warner has certainly been guilty of filtering before. Anyone who saw EYES WIDE SHUT theatrically will remember it as one of the grainiest films released in the 90s. The BD removed virtually every bit of that grain and a ton of detail along with it.

Having said that, other Warner titles like HTWWW or DIRTY HARRY look tremendous. I'm not voicing an opinion on BOB one way or the other, but to say Warner doesn't do filtering on some titles is just plain wrong.
post #132 of 257
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gary Murrell View Post

no DNR on Eraser, it is a Panavision Scope film and is soft, I would give it a 4 out of 5 video of I was reviewing

this crap is getting old on AVS, lookie something is soft like Batman Begins, well **** it must be DNR

give me a break people

-Gary

For the record i am one of the few who said Batman Begins looked great and nominated it for my thread in the signature link.

I have responded in a private message to you rather than derail the thread.


Quote:
Originally Posted by David_W View Post

I understand and appreciate both of the well stated points of view of both 'mzupeman' and 'FoxyMulder'. I suppose, after it's all said and done, that I gravitate closer to the 'FoxyMulder' perspective. If noise isn't made...lots of it, in some cases, we'll never reach the level of quality we seek. The only way to know for sure, is to do and say nothing, and see where we are on the progress meter, a couple of years and hundreds of releases from now. I'm not willing to go that route. I prefer to make noise.

Thanks for that but unfortunately someone has seen fit to remove my post.

With regard to Band Of Brothers it's simple....Xylon is showing us that the Blu Ray edition has undergone grain reduction and lost detail in the process....His remarks state this to be the case....I can see no reason to defend the release so won't bother trying and i won't bother attacking the use of DNR for this release either since apparently this gets your posts deleted.

Finished with this thread and will think carefully before bothering to post in any more like this since it appears thoughtful posts which denounce DNR and the apologists of DNR on here always get deleted.....Have a great day everyone.
post #133 of 257
Just wondering

Is it Warner or HBO that handles this movie.

While they certainly is connected, how much does HBO operate themself?
post #134 of 257
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kram Sacul View Post

Maybe it's a good thing Warner didn't "remaster" The Matrix then.

I should have said "I have a bad feeling about this" when they mentioned "remaster"

I feel good about my HD DVD set
post #135 of 257
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Canary_Jules View Post

Many thanks once again to Xylon for his helpful screencaps. There is clearly less grain in the BD shots - just look at the blue sky in the shot of Nixon walking across the field not to mention Sobel's face in the first shot. That said the Blu-ray set still looks pretty decent, it does have all the extras that are not on the HD-DVDs and it's at a great price. So I wouldn't not buy it if I didn't already have the HD-DVDs. But I do have the Japanese HD-DVDs and I'm glad that I still have the best presentation of BOB (minus the extras) that there is. All of which makes me a tad misty eyed for the dear departed format... I've had Blu for well over a year and half now and my collection is slowly growing (been buying all those cheap HD-DVDs like mad) but it still has to do something special for me to rival HD-DVD in my affections. This BOB set might have done it. I was toying with double dipping and selling my HD-DVD set if the BD set matched it PQ wise, but Warner just lost the sale.

Less grain, less detail. The bigger the viewing screen, the bigger the difference.
post #136 of 257
Quote:
Originally Posted by shadowrage View Post

I still think it's the way Warner uses the VC-1 codec and not DNR. If any of the other studios that still use VC-1 were to encode it like .... weinstein(?). Weinsten and Warner are the only VC-1 studios left?? at least Uni got it right with Doomsday when they used it.

It would probably look completely identical to the HD-DVD. Now if Warner would have just used the same AVC encode, well then they would have to look the same. Stupid studio/codec exclusivity. Switch teams Warner, everyones doing it.

Let's not forget Universal's King Kong. I'm not sure what the avg bit-rate was for it, but it looked extremely good, and was really sharp. Perhaps the blu-ray version may outdo it.

I think Lionsgate uses VC-1 on some titles and AVC on others.

My *guess* (and it really is nothing more than a guess) is that Warner may apply their filtering/DNR in their master that they use to encode the DVD and just use the same exact master for their HD titles. I think Universal does the dnr/filtering on a case by case basis which is why Mummy, and some of the other titles have more DNR on blu than HD DVD and some vice versa (Miami Vice)

If you look at the DVD pics for BoB on the first page, the grain level looks about on par with the blu-ray. It's there, but it's not as grainy as you would expect it to be.

I dunno...
post #137 of 257
Quote:
Originally Posted by MovieSwede View Post

Just wondering

Is it Warner or HBO that handles this movie.

While they certainly is connected, how much does HBO operate themself?

Good question. My guess is that it's Warner, but one thing led me to believe it wasn't: I was watching Sopranos on blu-ray and noticed the bit rate hit into the 30s a few times. I doubt the HD DVD did the same, but it could have been an error in reporting on the PS3s part. Only rented the Sopranos so I couldnt say when it hit > 30, or anything.
post #138 of 257
I finally had a chance to do an on-the-fly A-B comparison between my HD-DVD and BD sets. In many scenes, they look identical. In some scenes I can see the difference ever so slightly. And in some scenes the difference is very definite. It's no surprise that the scenes with the most grain are the ones that are easiest to discern the difference. Bottom line is that they both look terrific but the BD is a bit softer.
post #139 of 257
Thread Starter 
You know it got me thinking especially when some people dismiss this kind of "remastering". Why did we even bother with all this new technology? VHS should suffice with our old analog viewing sets.
post #140 of 257
Quote:
Originally Posted by stumlad View Post

If you look at the DVD pics for BoB on the first page, the grain level looks about on par with the blu-ray. It's there, but it's not as grainy as you would expect it to be.

I don't think WB wants to have the BD version looking even grainier than the DVD. The higher the resolution, the more inherent grain that is visible, so I think they use DNR to tone down the grain to DVD levels since they don't want consumers thinking that Blu-ray is a grainier format than DVD.
post #141 of 257
which is just plain stupidity
post #142 of 257
Quote:
Originally Posted by stumlad View Post

Good question. My guess is that it's Warner, but one thing led me to believe it wasn't: I was watching Sopranos on blu-ray and noticed the bit rate hit into the 30s a few times. I doubt the HD DVD did the same, but it could have been an error in reporting on the PS3s part. Only rented the Sopranos so I couldnt say when it hit > 30, or anything.

Based on Stacey Spears' comment that HBO has been anti-grain (with particular regard to this BD set), I would think that the people who usually handle Warner's titles didn't handle this release. He has insider knowledge, so that's what I made of it.
post #143 of 257
Quote:
Originally Posted by bruceames View Post

I don't think WB wants to have the BD version looking even grainier than the DVD. The higher the resolution, the more inherent grain that is visible, so I think they use DNR to tone down the grain to DVD levels since they don't want consumers thinking that Blu-ray is a grainier format than DVD.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AmishFury View Post

which is just plain stupidity

What it is, is a view that consumers are stupid. Which is not altogether inaccurate.
post #144 of 257
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by bruceames View Post

I don't think WB wants to have the BD version looking even grainier than the DVD. The higher the resolution, the more inherent grain that is visible, so I think they use DNR to tone down the grain to DVD levels since they don't want consumers thinking that Blu-ray is a grainier format than DVD.

Sad isn't it? At the expense of HF detail. It's really frustrating when you know there is another release that is better in PQ.
post #145 of 257
I'm convinced this is being done, so a better release can be put out 3-5 years from now, and reviews will say it's that much better than the original release, therefore causing us all to go out and buy it again.

Future Release sample review: "The grain in this release is superb, and clearly blows the original release of the water. So if you love the series, and care about grain, it is definitly worth the upgrade." Cha-ching!! $$$$$
post #146 of 257
Quote:
Originally Posted by jra166 View Post

I'm convinced this is being done, so a better release can be put out 3-5 years from now, and reviews will say it's that much better than the original release, therefore causing us all to go out and buy it again.

Future Release sample review: "The grain in this release is superb, and clearly blows the original release of the water. So if you love the series, and care about grain, it is definitly worth the upgrade." Cha-ching!! $$$$$

The problem, I suspect, is if you did an informal poll at Walmart or Best Buy and had BoB playing with grain intact on HDM and another one playing with slight DNR on HDM next to it, there are many people that would tell you the one with less grain looked "more HD like" and better to them.

I mentioned this in the James Bond review thread but one of the very first Blu-Ray movies we (the wife and I) watched was Rocky Balboa. Now that movie has a very gritty grainy look per the directors intent. About 15 minutes into the movie my wife wondered why it had so much "noise". She was expecting it to look like network television (HD). My wife is no idiot, but she is not a film buff nor did she understand grain structure and detail. She expected HD to equal a very polished look. I expect many other people feel the exact same way. I can't tell you how many comments I saw regarding 300 on Blu-Ray/HD DVD where people thought there was something wrong with either their copy or their equipment because of all the "noise", err, I mean "grain"...

I much prefer that the studio left the grain intact. I definitely prefer the HD DVD encode vs the Blu-Ray, but the Blu-Ray still looks pretty good to me, and there is no way I could justify paying the price difference to get a slightly better looking encode for the HD DVD at this time (plus I stopped buying HD DVD's since the Warner announcement). That said, I am still disappointed slightly with Warner's decision to apply DNR to this Blu-Ray release. But I bought it on Blu-Ray, so I am not that disappointed
post #147 of 257
Quote:
Originally Posted by Xylon View Post

I feel good about my HD DVD set

Me too
post #148 of 257
I believe this title was filtered with the Digi Vision box. HBO strongly dislikes grain.
post #149 of 257
Quote:
Originally Posted by ack_bk View Post

The problem, I suspect, is if you did an informal poll at Walmart or Best Buy and had BoB playing with grain intact on HDM and another one playing with slight DNR on HDM next to it, there are many people that would tell you the one with less grain looked "more HD like" and better to them.

Unfortunately true.
post #150 of 257
Here's the first review I've seen of BoB on BD from a reviews/news website: DVDTOWN.com

Here's the part you guys are probably interested in:

Quote:


VIDEO:
"Band of Brothers" is presented in its original 1.78:1 aspect ratio. Much has been made online about the intentionally washed out, grainy look to all ten episodes, specifically regarding the fear Warner Brothers applied DNR to "clean up" the miniseries. Here's what I can report: grain is largely intact throughout each and every disc. Now, about that grain. The first time I really noticed it was gone happened to be in Episode 8, "The Last Patrol." Everything on screen looks too clean considering what comes before and after. Am I saying DNR was absolutely applied here? No. Just that there is a different look to the action. Take that are you will.

Chances are most audiences aren't going to notice and the use of DNR is so minuscule the score will reflect it. There is one other issue I wanted to mention. In the same episode, the slats on a wooden fence appear to jump as the camera moves into a forest. At no other time does this jumping become a problem, leading me to believe this is an isolated incident.

The desaturated and blown out look of "Brothers" is well rendered in high def, with the transfer doing a bang up job from beginning to end. There are no problems in dark scenes with details or blockiness while snow covered locations remain crisp. By design, there are no colors to "pop" on the screen, leading to a naturalistic, dirty presentation just as was originally intended.
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