Need some main speaker in-wall recommendations

Well what do you want to spend???

I am going to recommend these in-walls. SpeakerCraft AIM LCR 1. These are $100 over budget. But read the description.

Description
Building on the award winning AIM series of fully pivoting ceiling speakers the new In-wall AIM LCR series dramatically improves flexibility of in-wall applications. With a dual woofer and a single dome tweeter configuration the In-wall AIM pivots side to side or up and down (depending on vertical or horizontal installation) by 17 degrees. The pivoting tweeters can be angled an additional 30 degrees. This allows physical tow-in or vertical adjustments while remaining completely flush in the wall. This proprietary feature sets the AIM LCR apart from all other in-wall offerings in the industry.

http://www.surroundsolutions.com/cgi...cgi/99166.html

http://www.speakercraft.com/#Products:18:AIM%20LCR%201

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q...=Speakercraft+

I wouldn't have recommended them, if I didn't think they were better.

Before you commit to in-walls, please read this article:
http://www.cepro.com/article/how_to_...peaker_systems
Unless you can use backboxes or enclosures, you'll have issues with in-walls. If you are absolutely commited to in-walls, please consider the use of backboxes or enclosures. Speakercraft makes some backboxes, as does DynaMat:
http://www.dynamat.com/products_arch...l_dynabox.html

Good luck.

Craig

I love how you find every in-ceiling/in-wall thread, and give your recommendations having very little experience with these systems. After all that is what you have stated to me.

I'm surprised *you* don't give the same advice. After all, you've stated to me that your in-wall system uses backboxes.

Craig

Edit: I don't know how long ago I stated to you that I have very little experience with in-walls/in-ceilings, but I have recently helped several friends install systems with in-ceiling speakers, (enclosed Mirage Omnicans installed in the surround positions.) Also, I have heard several other systems that use unenclosed in-walls. The SQ of those systems is the *reason* I advise people to use enclosures.

I also had an unlimited budget. With the OP's budget, I already suggested speakers over his budget. And those enclosures would almost cost what the speakers do.

Not every system is going to be perfect. Speakers, placement, room all play a significant part.

In that case wouldn't it be better advice to steer him away from in-walls? An enclosed on-wall would provide better sound quality than an unenclosed in-wall. Gene DellaSala of Audioholics feels the same way:
http://www.audioholics.com/tweaks/do...-wall-speakers


I agree, but we should give advice that *optimizes* these parameters as much as possible. IMO, unenclosed in-walls are not optimum, especially for the dynamics required of HT. They're OK for background music, but the wall resonances get really out of control with HT sound effects.

Craig

I don't agree with that totally. IMO there are quality in-walls that will out perform, and sound better then some traditional speakers. Not in every case will a traditional bookshelf, or tower speaker sound better then an in-wall speaker.

How does even a "quality" in-wall that does not have an enclosure, deal with the inherent resonances of the wall? Also, how does it deal with the inherent porosity of drywall? Many people are under the impression that you can take an "open-back" in-wall speaker, stick it in a wall cavity and the backwave of the speaker driver will have no impact on the sound quality. Nothing could be further from the truth.

There are 3 key elements to speaker design; the drivers, the crossovers and the enclosure. All 3 have a significant impact on the final sound quality. How does a speaker engineer design a speaker for highest sound quality when one of these 3, the enclosure, is so totally unpredictable? An in-wall speaker could be installed in an open cavity with drywall on the front and "back" walls. Or, the "back" wall could be plywood with a layer of brick on the other side. The column could be a 16" on-center 2"x4" stud interior wall, or it could be a 24" on-center 2"x8" exterior wall. The column could be 8' high, or it could be 16' or 24' high. The column could be stuffed with pink fluffy fiberglass, or it could be a wide open "resonator".

Tell me, mazer, how does a speaker designer optimize a speaker for all these potential enclosure types. I asked several in-wall manufacturer's this question at CEDIA a few weeks ago. The standard response I received was, "We let the installers take care of that."

I have seen and heard several in-wall installations done by "professional" installers. Walls hum, buzz and rattle. The bass is exactly ONE NOTE, the note that the wall resonates at.

I suppose a competent installer could design an in-wall system that would get crossed-over above the resonant frequency of the wall. However, that would require the ability to actually *measure* the wall's resonant frequency, (and all of those wall types I listed above would have *very* different resonant frequencies.) Still, if the system is crossed to the sub much higher than 80 Hz, sub localization will become an issue.

Everything I just said addresses the issue of sound quality of an in-wall system. There is also the issue of sound-bleed to other living spaces with in-wall speakers. An enclosed in-wall reduces this problem by at least 20 dB.

Mazer, you seem to think I have a "thing" for in-wall speakers. I don't. I have a "thing" for UNENCLOSED in-walls. There are a lot of questions asked about "budget" systems with unenclosed in-walls. I consistently tell people that they either need to spend the money for enclosures, or they should look at on-wall or free-standing speakers. Until drywall manufacturers start to make "speaker-quality" drywall, I will continue to express this opinion.

Craig

I haven't even read past this sentence and I wanted to respond.

You speak of "resonance". Over 90% of tradition speaker enclosures have measurable resonance.

I don't disagree. However, that "measureable" resonance is nowhere near the level of resonance of a piece of drywall attached with drywall screws to a "stud".

Craig

The same can be said about a traditional speaker design. How does the speaker designer know what kind of room the speaker will end up in?

Room dimensions, construction, furniture, and material within the room all effect sound.

Again, I don't disagree. In fact, I would go further and say that speaker position and listener position affect sound even more than those other considerations.

However, it is the relative *levels* of these interactions that is important. IME, when the *wall* is resonating at it's resonant frequency, it so overwhelms the other room interactions that they become irrelevant.

Craig

Overwhelms??? I do not agree with this. JMO

OK, to give a "real life" example:

My brother, (who lives about 3,000 miles away from me), had a "professional installer" install a system in his HT. He ended up with some in-walls installed in a stud-wall around a (*way* overpriced) plasma display, and a "subwoofer" installed in a cubby hole recessed into the wall.

The sound in his room is so pre-dominated by the resonances of his walls that it is hard to hear anything else. He can't turn the volume up because the resonances are so overwhelming that they totally obliterate the rest of the sound spectrum. He thinks it sounds great. I don't have the heart to point out to him that his bass is just one note.

Another "real life" example:

I have a friend who had a local "high end" shop install an in-wall system in his second floor loft; no subwoofer, just in-walls with "deep bass response". He wanted to show off his system to me so he threw in a "Sopranos" DVD. The opening song "Got Yourself a Gun" has some pretty good mid-bass in it. Those notes all sounded the exactly same to me. My friend's comment was; "Check out that bass!" I didn't have the heart to tell him that all the notes sounded exactly the same.

Bottom line, maybe it's just expectations, but I have never heard an *unenclosed* in-wall system achieve the kind of sound quality that a free-standing speaker system can achieve.

OTOH, I have heard several *enclosed* in-wall systems (Klipsch THX Ultra2 and Atlantic Technology THX Ultra2) and they can definitely hit the SQ mark. However, they are not cheap.

Ya gets what ya pays for...

Craig

Just because a "Professional Installer" installers a system does not mean speakers are placed, calibrated, or installed properly.

Ask 100 members here about installing a system in the same room, and you'll get 100 different variations.

My suggestion would be to contact the manufacturer of your in-wall speakers and ask them about the "optimal" size and type of enclosure. Different driver and crossover designs respond differently to being "sealed" in an enclosure. The best source of information on your particlar speaker is the manufacturer.

You could also ask Gene DellaSala, the author of that article I linked to above, over on the Audioholics forum. Reference the article. He's pretty good about responding.

Craig

You have a big engineering task in front of you. Read up on the Thiele-Small parameters after you find out the specs of the speaker system, if they are even available. Most inwall companies lie about their specs, so you may not get the real numbers. -3 dB at 40 Hz usually means -3 dB at 75 Hz or higher. Be prepared to design an air-tight enclosure, too, or it will sound like hammered crap. Then consider that an inwall can be designed EITHER to be used as an infinite baffle design OR an acoustic suspension design...not both. And optional back boxes are flimsy enough that they accentuate the system resonance frequency, and they vibrate like the body of a Gibson Dove guitar.

In your price range you get open back designs. That is the reality. Klipsch and Speakercraft, as well as Sonance, Boston, Bay Audio, Niles and others, all do an okay job. Good luck.