The Official Magnepan Owners Thread - Page 6

Neekos: I had MMGs from 2004 until 2006, then made a very difficult decision to leave them for some DeVore Fidelity Super 8s. The DeVores were among the first "cone and dome" speakers I heard that could match the Maggies transparency. I listened to so many speakers a few years ago that it was making my head spin....the DeVores are amazing! The problem was that I could never fully get Maggie off my mind, so I made the (again) very difficult decision to leave a speaker I loved and take a chance on the bigger Maggies. So far it's been a great ride, and I'm loving the 3.6s

My system is as follows:
Maggie 3.6 mains
Maggie CC3 center (on the way soon)
Butler Audio 5150 amp
Marchand xm44 2-way crossover
Mapletree Audio Design Line 2A SE preamp
Tube Audio Design TA-DAC
Squeezebox Duet
Outlaw Audio 950 pre/pro
Sony BD550 blu-ray

I'm going to add some MMG-Ws in back, but since I'll need a couple more amp channels I'm going to hold off until after an upcoming trip to Biloxi

Thanks for the response.

Looks like a great system you have there.

An audio engineer? I'm far more familiar with the physics involved in this particular case than you are, apparently. Plonk.

Thanks, man....it's taken a while to get here, but I'm pretty happy with the sound. But honestly, if someone told me I HAD to stick with MMGs as my mains forever and could never upgrade? I know for a fact I could be happy with them for life. Are the 3.6s better? Of course they are. But especially for the money, the MMGs are an amazing speaker. You get a whole lot of Maggie Magic for not a lot of money, and you can really build a nice system around them. That's one of the things I love about maggies...you can find an entry point at almost any budget.

Go ahead and act like a six year old (second childhood perhaps?) if that's what you prefer. Or perhaps you'd like to offer up your deep understanding of the physics involved, and why they do not apply in this case.

Nope, I'm using the same Yamaha RX-V3300 AVR. I am looking to replace it, possibly with an NAD t785.

Peter Gunn would disagree with you.

http://www.indiespinzone.com/mag/mag4.html

http://www.positive-feedback.com/Issue37/magnestand.htm

http://www.audiocircle.com/circles/i...topic=29387.20

More subjective and anecdotal claims without a scrap of objective evidence in sight, but thanks for the links. As a counterpoint, I have a colleague who is a physicist who agrees with me. He's not a woodworker or even an audio hobbyist, but he got quite a chuckle out of this little tempest in a teapot when I called him last night.


The woo peddlers are so predictable that I think they must all operate from the same playbook. Disagreement with their claims seems to initiate the same responses rather consistently:
1. My hearing isn't discerning enough. When that fails...
2. My system isn't revealing enough. When that fails...
3. I wasn't listening correctly. When that fails...
4. Toss in some questionable testimonials and hearsay. (My personal favorite is the spouse who is normally oblivious to such things, but noticed the night-and-day difference nonetheless. It was like veils had been lifted from his/her ears.)
When that fails...
5. Lob as many claims and as much extraneous information into the discussion as possible in an attempt to obfuscate the original issue and make any meaningful discussion of it impossible.
I've heard these types of interchanges likened to playing chess with a pigeon. It doesn't know the rules. It knocks the pieces over and craps on the board. Then it flies back to its roost cooing about its victory.

Wow....

Okay, here's my take on it: I am a summa cum laude graduate in Psych, so I'm not oblivious to the issues of perception and bias. That being said, this is a hobby first and foremost for a large majority of those involved, and I don't think there should be any "expectation" for anyone to use anything other than their ears to guide them. Everything from the forums, to the demos you undertake at your local stereo shop, to the professional magazines, is centered primarily on subjectivism.

I'm not DBX'ing every piece of gear I own, but you know what? My system sounds better today than it ever has. So obviously something I'm doing is making sense, even without the benefit of objective bias controlled scientifically sound experimentation. Do I find the idea of DBX testing in this hobby interesting? Of course. I think it would be great if someone took the time to do more of it. But I don't have any interest in taking the time to carry it out myself, and I don't feel the least bit bothered by that.

So what's my point? My point is that if subjective, biased evaluations of gear isn't your thing, then you're pretty much SOL.

Oh, and Maggies rule.

Interesting. I was most surprised to hear you did not like them as well as your MG-I's. I found them to be a major improvement, especially in the upper midrange and beyond.

But the MG-I did have a bit more diaphragm and did sit more vertical. I think setting the MMG's on the floor leaned back with the stupid little feet is far from ideal.

-sb

I await the return of MK and the 2 pairs of mmg's he ordered...

The MG-1b's also didn't have quite the hf response of the later systems. I believe the spec was 45-18 khz ± 4dB vs. the MMG's 50-24 kHz ±3 dB and the 1.6QR's 40-24kHz ±3dB.

I did set the MMG's near vertical and couldn't tell any real difference other than that I had to have my ears closer to the floor, like sitting instead of standing. My friend (who has MG-1c Maggies) also likes the 1.6's better than the MMG's.

Oh, well, I have the MMG's stored for now and will either use them as rears in the new house or maybe sell them.

Picked these up locally last year for $800, 2years old I'm told. Bought the basic feet to apply tilt...all's good. Purchased 2 Crown K1 to do them justice, I'm using them for 2 channel application only...far from the ideal setup/tweaks nevertheless, getting closer eventually I'll have more time to devote.

Wow, eight bills for 2-year-old 1.6s?? Awesome deal, man!!

You will read a lot of negative comments about the center speaker (MMG-C). I own an MMG-C and I am using it with my MMG's and they pair great IMHO. It takes some work with the placement just as the MMG's do, but once set up they all integrate quite well. Keep in mind that this is a BIG center speaker. The biggest consideration is that the MMG-C wont give off much bass, but still sounds natural with deep male voices in my setup.

I have mine mounted under my TV tilting up towards the listener (about 2 feet from the wall, in an open air placement). I used a laser pointer to aid in the placement of the speakers, but I still get up from the sofa from time to time to play with the placement of all of my speakers. It really is a game of millimeters.

I think if your going for a speaker system that is for music first and HT second your on the right track. I have heard plenty of speaker systems sound better in surround, but non as good with the music. All in all... for roughly $900, its a heck of a deal. Just invest the extra coin you saved on a nice sealed sub.

Instead of an MMG-C, I am using a pair of MMGW as center. I split the center signal out of the preamp and feed it to separate channels on my amplifier so each speaker has separate amplification. They are on the floor on each side of a 65 inch rear projection display. The dialog is clear even when dialog is whispered and volume is low. It blends seamlessly with wall mounted MC1 used of mains. Surround is handled by another pair of MMGW.

Thanks--- I think MMG-C might be the way to go for the center.
Imu

Actually, if you believe the indefatigable Mr. Gunn, Mye stands are not solving the inherent vibration problems that Maggies suffer from. According to Mr. Gunn, Mye stands are fundamentally incapable of removing/dissipating panel vibrations. For example:

"They tried to solve the problem by "stiffening" the panels with struts and metal frames. Because doing this had some effect on the sound, people felt vindicated doing it, and it became the accepted truth. Yes, attaching struts to stock maggies will yield some improvement, but not for the reasons thought. What the struts are actually doing is providing more floor coupling which allows some extra vibration to bleed off that normally would not escape the frame. They are not solving the inherent problem."

And the solution is:

"The solution therefore is to remove these waves entirely and stiffening will not do that. Fortunately it turns out that there is an ideal medium which can do this: Wood. It has a natural ability to absorb vibrational energy and diffuse it. One of the things I found is if you hold a stock Maggie by the MDF frame while playing, you really don't feel a lot of vibration, but if you look at the driver it will be bouncing all over the place. If you hold one of my frames while playing the amount of vibrational energy one can feel is startling, however if you look at the driver, no movement can be seen, even at high volumes. Magnestand frames take the wave energy generated and simply bleed it off, therefore it NEVER comes back into the driver and that energy never contaminates the subsequent waves. What you get is one of the purest sounds in audio, which has been compared to and even beaten electrostats in its delicacy and beauty."

Disclaimer: I am not endorsing Mr. Gunn's mods. On the contrary, I tend to be mostly annoyed by the tweako cultist culture that surrounds Maggies. I do love my MG1.6; however, I used them only to listen to music, nothing else.

Ah, terrific exchange between Bradford and Merrill. Loved it. Great writing. I am with Merrill on this one. The proof simply isn't there, and most comments on why there is sound improvement border on comical. Yes, I do have Mye stands on my MG 1.6 but only because that is how I purchased them.

As for reviews of modded Maggies, they are a riot to read! Highly recommended for sheer amusement. They rival some of the most absurd cable reviews in TAS or Stereophile. Consider the following observations:

http://www.positive-feedback.com/Issue37/magnestand.htm

"There is much more meat on the bone and flesh in the overall sound." (Merrill, are you paying attention?)

"...the panels in my modded 1.6QRs are now back to the normal orientation and they sound more natural that way."

"This mod also makes them sound more efficient. Whether this is real or imagined I can't say." (There is a lot of hot air blowing around here)

"It would be fascinating to measure the stock 1.6QR vs. a full Magnestand mod for efficiency, phase, and overall frequency response." (Yes, indeed, although I am not holding my breath till someone does it)

And so on. If it sounds different, it does not mean that it is better. What is better anyway? Change the stock crossover or mod the panels, and you may indeed get different sound. All that is left is to convince yourself that the money was well spent. My advice: a glass of good wine will go a long way towards accomplishing that goal. A week later, you will sit in your favorite chair a little bit differently, or you'll have a crummy day and the magic will be gone. Oh no! Don't despair, you get another free advice: pour yourself another glass of wine.

Room acoustics trump any change in the audio chain, including amps, pre-amps, source, cables, etc. If you have the right equipment, measure frequency response at your listening position, then move the microphone 5 inches forward or backward and measure again. The difference will be remarkable. Move speakers and measure again. Same thing.

Happy listening to your Maggies.

NB: I only drink Keenan Cab when listening to Beethoven. Terrific combination.

I don't own Mye stands... but I have measured the back and forth movement of my panels. I have also seen the intermodulation components introduced into the ribbon from the bass panel. Eliminating these certainly can not hurt.

As I mentioned earlier... Magnepan is not a tweak company, and I am thankful for that. For if they were, they would be much more costly then they are now. If you ever took one apart you would be infinitely familiar with that reality.

They are built to a price; and that means that some compromises are made, and can be addressed by the modders. You can close your mind to it or not. But I'll give you one to contemplate.

For decades, Magnepan did nothing to address the issue of diffraction induced by the large baffle housing their high frequency driver. This was a fairly common user tweak over the decades, especially to the higher end Tympani series that was distributed by Audio Research.

Now while Magnepan has not gone to extraordinary measures to address this, they have addressed it in a cost effective manor in current models. You think they did that because the tweak others were doing offered no improvement?

Like Mr. Merrill, I too had a physicist colleague back when I worked in audio. His name was Les Fields (you can google Lester M. Fields along with Bell Labs and Hughes Aircraft for some background). Les was a friend of D. Jonas Miller, back when M&K Sound was a startup out of the attic of Jonas Miller Sound in Beverly Hills back in the seventies and came on board after his retirement as chief audio engineer.

It was here where I learned that you can't see the big picture unless you sweat the details. While one or two may not bring you to audio nirvana, addressing as many as you can will make the difference between mediocrity and something special. Doppler and intermodulation distortions are very real things when it comes to sound waves, and Les had more patents in this area than I care to count. He wasn't one to "laugh" or easily dismiss a concept that might be foreign to his previous experience or education, but instead possessed an open mind to learn from experimentation and measurement, and even listening. The bottom line is that nothing was "off the table" due to preconceived notions.

While I am not the sort to purchase $500 power cords, I have heard the difference between cabling under some circumstances (a notion that is attributed to tweaks who think they hear something that is not really there). And I have made mods to various audio components that IMHO have demonstrated very noticeable results.

Yes, there is a lot of snake oil out there, and yes, there are mods out there that provide little improvement when measured by their costs. But any product "built at a price" can be improved to reduce the compromises that are made to build at that price. And considering any $1 in increased manufacturing cost will most likely result in a $5 to $10 increase in retail pricing, many products can be improved by the end user much more cost effectively then the manufacturer.

I have no problem if all you want to do is unbox it and listen to it. But if you don't think the majority of things built today can not be improved with a little knowledge and resourcefulness your just fooling yourself.

That's one of my favorite nonsensical statements.

If you really want to bleed off vibrations, how about immersing them in concrete?

You know, if you really want to improve your Maggies and are willing to spend the bucks, here is a simple solution: trade up!


MG 20.1

Thanks for the chuckle and thank you for the kind words. It's nice to see that I'm not the only Maggie owner who doesn't buy into all that nonsense.

Agreed. The 20.1s sound very nice, IMO. I was this close >< to buying a pair (I even had my wife talked into it.), then the stock market tanked.
I think I'm going to follow in Summa's footsteps and give bi-amping and a Marchand active crossover a try on my 3.6s instead. It won't be the same, but it'll keep me out of trouble for a while.

Ahhh, now I see we are down to the level of pointing out typos. So be it. BTW, the term is "straw man".

Just checking.

Keep the personal remarks to yourselves.

Kyser

I assume you are going to disconnect the internal crossovers? As many on these forums have stated, bi-amping with the internal crossovers still in the loop won't achieve the same result.

That is my problem - I really want to try bi-amping but I don't want to mess with the speakers themselves.

I guess that I need to do a bit more research. I wasn't aware that the internal XOs had to be removed/disconnected. I'm not crazy about the idea of tearing into my speakers either.
Do you happen to have any links for any of the XO discussions handy?