The Official Magnepan Owners Thread - Page 53

Sure, so long as you pick up the college tab for two kids, especially after our beloved state budget axed higher ed funding.

I have always liked Bryston though haven't heard them in a while (year or two). I have had several in my system to try out through the years (working in the biz helped me play with lots of toys I couldn't afford). They are clean and quiet, dependable, solid performers. They don't seem to garner the accolades of some of the "elite" amps but they sure sound good to me.

As I said, I'm happy with my Emotivas, and at a much cheaper price point. See opening comment... - Don

@go-sox

I used to think stay with 1 company for the electronics too. But since learned that its not necessary.
I have a Audio Research Reference 3 pre-amp. I tried a few different pre-amps before getting this one, 1 of of them was a lesser Audio Research. This Reference 3 is magic. Before, I was always turning the stereo up to try to get the right highs, but seemed to never get it quite were it was stellar.
IF I was going to change anything, I would go with Parasound JC-1 mono-blocks for the amps and add a set of Vandersteen 2WQ subwoofers. But My system is already awesome.

i've heard a lot of places that ARC mates really, really well with bryston. i was looking at your pre-amp just this morning. i just can't justify the cost of that to myself. again, i could do it, but it just passes the point where i'm not willing to invest any more money in this

i'll take that as a "yes"

okay, last question. let's talk cutting corners. if i go all-bryston, should i go bp26 pre+3b sst(150 Wpc) = $8050, or would you recommend putting more of the money into the amp and choosing bp16+4b sst(300 Wpc) = $7800?

The only way I justified springing for the reference 3 was when I heard it in my system. There was no way I could take it back. I HAD to keep it. It was a critical piece of the puzzle.

then i won't consider it until i can find one and hear it. so waddaya think, alien? go with a better pre-amp (which has a separate power supply) and 280 watts into 4 ohms, or a cheaper pre-amp (with power supply built in) and 500 watts into 4 ohms?

I tried a few cheaper pre-amps in my system, and a couple lesser amps also. I think you owe it to yourself to borrow the gear from your audio dealer and connect to your equipment in your home and that will really tell you what you really want and what works. My Maggie dealer in Royal Oak Mi. has ARC, etc. and I can borrow for a few days, to see if its good or not. THE 3.6 Maggies are awesome and if hooked to the right gear will make your jaw hit the floor. There is a huge difference in the electronics end and the investment is sizeable. Also not being able to wipe that smile off your face is something to consider too.

Strange to think of comparing two ~$8000 preamp/amp combos and talk of "cutting corners"... You can send me to either of those corners and I'll sit quietly!

I normally suggest putting money into the power amp(s) initially on the theory that once you get enough power for any future needs there, then you are much more likely to want to upgrade the preamp/processing than the amps. Both preamps are likely to be very good, but you might consider a couple of things the upper model (BP 26) has:

1. A MC phono cartridge input. A don't care if you have no TT and no plans to ever get one. Otherwise, having the option might be nice.
2. Balanced outputs. I suspect this does not matter in the home but opinions vary.

Spec-wise both are essentially the same on paper. The bigger amp provides about 3 dB of headroom, not enough to really matter, but there may be other benefits to having more power on tap, depending upon your room size and listening style (type of music, volume, etc.)

What would I do? Tough call... I have a nice TT but have not set it up since revamping my system last year (after ~15 years in storage). And, while I like MC's, by and large I have owned and been happy with MM cartidges. So, I'd probably get the BP 16/ SST 4B combo if that was my trade space.

I found that some amps I tried in the system didn’t have that much oomph to make the bass outstanding as it is today.
And with the lesser pre-amps, after awhile you realized the vocals were not as nice as you wanted and the highs were not quite as high as you wanted them to be. It makes you not like a lot of recordings so much, and you wind up turning things up to try to compensate for what your ears are missing.

There is a certain amount of soundstage, 3 dimensionality, etc. with any of the amps and pre-amps that were hooked up to the 3.6 Maggies.
These speakers can produce surprising, as in startle you, immaculate bass. But the highs are so high, I don’t understand how they can keep on top of the bass like that. Its like these 60” ribbon tweeters are telling the bass that they are superstars too and can prove it with some change left over. I didn't get that result with lesser gear attached.

I can tell you this, if you haven’t heard the bass tightly fill the space between the 2 speakers (mine are 6’ apart) and from the floor to the ceiling and to your chair (mine is about 7’ away from either speaker) and at the same time with “sparkling” highs that can project across the ceiling or towards the walls, then you wouldn’t have a clue what 3.6r Maggies are capable of.
If your jaw hasn’t dropped to the floor in awe because of how astonishingly
beautiful they sound, then they need better electronics hooked up to them.

You will not believe how incredible these speakers can sound. With some really
nice electronics hooked up to them, your music collection will absolutely freak you right out. You will be listening to music that you never liked before. And you will be buying a lot more music to listen to, too.

Any way, good luck with putting a system together and have lots of fun.

Gentlemen. Jumping in here as a newbie to the forum and this thread, although I've been lurking about for years. I have a set of Carver Amazing Silver editions that are dying to foam rot. Had them for about 15 years now. I have been a believer in dipoles since first hearing a demo by Bob Carver in 89. The last box speakers I owned were 70's vintage, and sounded like crap in comparison. My quandry now is, since the Carvers are out of the room for now, I have gotten really, really used to the extra space in my living room. I have fantasized about Maggie 3.6's for some years, but the need to purchase had yet to materialize till now. But, recently, I have heard some amazing box speakers in the same price range, and would not have to have two closet doors standing in the end of the room. Paradigm Studio 100v5, PSB Synchrony Ones, and if I went a little nuts, B&W 804's. Leaning toward the PSB's. Note it's just me, no WAF to consider. But still. Note, Carvers are 27"x19"x54".

So, at age 62 with my hearing not what it used to be, I wonder, are the new 3.7's worth the closet door effect? Do they come in dark cherry? I don't care for the new red, or the aluminum And would my B&K 7250 be enough to drive them properly at 375wpc @ 4 ohms? It will sort of drive the Carvers which are 8 ohms, but I acquired two Carver M4.0t amps to solve that issue, and I run them in bridged mono, so there's a kilowatt available if they need it. My system is 5.1 and that leaves two channels in the 7250 unused. If the 7250 would be enough, I could sell the two other amps. Also, if any of you have heard them, do they do bass well? The Carvers will rock the house. The final bars to Emerson, Lake, and Palmer's Lucky Man comes to mind. I ask as I have yet to find a way to put my sub (infinite baffle) in use in stereo mode. (2.1 as it were) Pre-pro is a B&K Ref 50
.
The Carvers may in fact be repairable, not sure yet. I am waiting to hear if new drivers will be available from the original maker. So I have time, As I might be ready to decide by mid summer, but the Paradigm Mini-Monitors now in the living room just ain't making it.

Thanks in advance.

i get your point, don. i went back and re-read my post. it does come across as kind of pretentious, doesn't it? but believe me, i'm not like that. hell, i'm pretty embarrassed at spending this much money on stereo gear. the post was meant to be taken at face value. what i'm trying to say is that this is going way over budget, and i'm trying to rein it in. i originally thought i could get by with different electronics, but from what i'm hearing (and reading), the sound i want from this stuff is gonna cost me more than i originally planned. i'm going to be retiring in a few years, and i don't want to be on a fixed income and looking at parts of my stereo and saying "man, that pre-amp sounded so good; i wish i had just coughed up the extra money and sprung for that thing i really wanted back when i could afford it". i want to end the constant equipment turnover and be happy with what i've got for the next 3 decades. that's why i'm buying the maggies now, and i'm so excited: i've listened to 'em, and loved 'em, for decades, and this is the first time in my life i could afford them. and now i can also afford the bryston right now, finally, for the first time in my life. having said that, it doesn't mean i'm gonna write a blank check. if dropping down a level on the pre-amp isn't gonna really make a difference to the maggies, i'm gonna do it. same with the amp. alien makes it sound like i'll be sorry if i do either. i just want the stereo that's gonna knock my socks off for the next 30 years, and i won't have any thought of buying new stuff when i really shouldn't be spending the money on this any more.

the more i think, the more i like your idea of the 4b sst and dropping down one level on the pre. but alien's comment about losing the vocals and high end is scaring me. my problem is that my bryston dealer doesn't stock all their stuff, so comparing pre-amps and amps in these combinations isn't going to happen

@Randy: You mean the foam surround on the woofer? The panels are ribbons, or were last time I heard a pair... There are places that will replace the foam surround pretty cheaply and you'll be back in business if that's the case. The ribbons themselves are more painful to deal with...

The 3.7's will sound great, likely very comparable to The Amazing Loudspeaker (Bob, Bob, Bob...) down to 40 Hz or so, but do not have the same bass. What they have is stunningly clean, but you're going to want a good sub for that last octave. Or two subs; I use a pair of Rythmik F12's with my old MG-IIIa's and they sound great. Personally, while I thought the Amazing was pretty durn good, I never felt the woofer was cleanly integrated (or maybe I am thinking of the old MLs) - always seemed like a bit of discontinuity as the sound went deep.

Depending on your budget, you might also like Sanders or Sound Labs electostatics. I have a friend with B&W 803D's and they do sound nice. You might be able to find a used pair of Apogees.

Me, I'm a Maggie guy; I'd get the 3.7's and be happy.

@go_sox: I found the $8k range comments funny/ironic, no reflection on you at all. I am still in shock over the price of the gear I used to be able to afford; it's all way over my head now. I have heard $250k+ systems and they sound great, but I'd rather have a house.

You're talking about maybe a 9.5 (16) to a 9.6 (26) in preamps on the 10-point scale. I seriously doubt you're going to be sorry; I have been in and out of the business for decades, and IMO a lot of the big differences reported are practically impossible to pick out in practice and with musical source material. I used an ARC preamp (modified SP3a-1, also had several others rotate through) in my system for years and loved it, but frankly the Bryston was a cleaner (lower-distortion) and somewhat quieter preamp. And, you're probably looking at a lot more money for a slight improvement (maybe) in sound (those last few tenths don't come cheap). If you like the tube sound, then go tubes, but if you like SS Bryston is pretty durn good, IMO. In my case, I am not sure I would pick out the 26 from the 16 in a controlled test. YMMV. Compared to a tube pre, in a second, but that's a very different beast with a different set of trades. I love them, but got tired of dealing with their care and feeding...

My thinking is that you are more likely to upgrade the preamp, maybe to a pre/pro, than upgrade the power amps over the next 5 - 10 years. Thus, I lean towards a lower-end pre and getting all the power you'll ever need.

FWIWFM - Don

DonH50, yes the foam around the woofers. For a 20 year old speaker, the ribbons seem fine. They are currently in a repair shop waiting to hear about new drivers. The shop has contacted everyone in the country he can find and nobody make the particular foam they use, it's some weird really long throw design, and the driver manufacturer only sells complete drivers which are out of stock, supposedly till "the middle of this month". Haven't heard yet. Might just call them tomorrow.
As for the bass, that's kind of what I've seen on the few review sites I've found. As I said, my sub is an IB, and it goes lowwwwww. It has 2 15" drivers in a manifold through to my 2 car garage. But I don't like music in multichannel, and I've yet to figure out how to get the B&K to go "2.1" and feed it in stereo. Might have to call B&K as well. So I really want a speaker that will go down low without needing a sub.
But about the space issue, I have actually thought of taking two closet doors from elsewhere in the house and standing them where the speakers go to see if I can stand it. It's how tall they are that's getting to me. The Carvers being only 54" high I can at least see over. The Maggies at 71" are my height.

Sounds like a Carver thing. I still get annoyed thinking about trying to find the right output transistors for my old Phase Linear 700 (lots of power but one of the least-reliable and worst-sounding amps I have ever owned).

Hmmm... I guess I never worried about the height unless they hit the ceiling. Or maybe I have just never had stuff behind the speakers I wanted to see... I actually prefer the taller panels, but again I have a history of "tall" speakers (Beveridge, Magnepan, etc.)

I run my subs in parallel with the mains so the L/R speakers function as full-range-plus to the AVR (or whatever). I've liked that scheme for ages; no worries about localization or bass management.

To the point: although I like my Maggies, in your case if you get your woofers fixed (likely, one way or another) then you save $$$ and have no worries about what might (or might not) change in the sound. Sounds like a good plan to me.

Good luck! - Don

that's exactly what your earlier post was leading me to think. 4b sst2 for the power and don't look back. mid-level pre, and maybe in a few years i'll talk to alien again and i'll be more willing to consider upgrading the pre-amp then. thanks, man!

I have never been a movie fanatic, more of a "watch the action and whatever sound comes out is OK" guy. Decent sound systems, but nothing spectacular. Upgrading to a full 7.1 Maggie system, new AVR, BD and TV, and well-treated room have changed my tune a bit... The sound in some of the new movies is very impressive! Whilst I miss my old stereo gear, I gotta' admit having room correction and fancy movie (and music video) sound and effects is pretty durn cool, even at my age. Thus, you might want to take a look at some good pre/pros to go with your new 4B...

(I can't spend any more, but can help others in my place. )

at 71", the maggies are slightly taller than me. get the 3.6s in the black painted finish; they'll look like the Monolith in the movie 2001. turn the lights down, put on Strauss' Also Sprach Zarathustra, and hide under a blanket.

i spent four hours listening to them 2 days ago. the dealer finally had to throw me out at closing time. i never really noticed the sight of 'em; all my attention was taken by the sound

YMMV

An early Magnepan ad line; "They don't look like speakers; they don't sound like speakers; they sound like you're there!" Still true today.

i've never cared about movies. i see one, maybe two a year. when i'm forced. so watching them in stereo instead of surround is fine with me. and every now and then something comes along with a spectacular sound track, and i prefer to hear it faithfully instead of gimmicky 7 speaker stuff. Amadeus comes to mind. i'll never debase my maggie/bryston system with (shudder) surround or (shudder) HT. i do, however, enjoy some well-recorded music videos and live concert performances on DVD and blu-ray

so stop this talk of movies, tv, and 7.1. right now. or out you go.....

Heh-heh-heh -- that was me a year ago, but the Dark Side called (among other movies), and of course my family (esp. teenage sons) didn't help... The Eagles DVD was really great, and a few others are impressive and actually recorded in 5.1. Then there are all these new BD 7.1 movies, like Star Trek and Avatar. Think of it, 3.7's with a CC3 center and full set of MC-1's for surrounds and rears, can you hear them beckon? Ah, great sound from great movies in the comfort of your own home... The siren call begins, better start saving for that next set of amps.

@go-sox
Don't worry about the 3.6 or.7's.
I can tell in your case, get the 1.7's or lower and get a Emotiva amp and call it a day. Have fun, cuz you will never know what the 3.6 or 7's are about because you are too worried.

I have a friend that has the Emotiva stuff and I can't wait to get out of his house. Its loud and all, and Maggies, but damn, thats not the stuff I can even smile at anymore.

The tweeters in the 3.7's are the same as the 3.6's. I talked to a tech at Magnepan a couple weeks ago.
You will be wasting your money buying 3.6 or.7's because you are not willing to back them up or let them play. I am only trying to be nice and informative. But buy lesser because you will have more fun Than pushing the envelope.

You will only be buying "hype" if you get the 3.6's or .7's because to get what they deliver, you have to get the rest, otherwise you have expensive speakers for nothing. And you won't even be able to show anyone what they REALLY are.

These speakers are made for power and insanity to the extreme. You have no idea. Probably the guy at your audio store has no idea either, lol. It is the most fun I've had ever with a HIGH OCTANE HI-FI. High Fidelity is where it is at. The question becomes, how much Hi-Fidelity can you stand?
These speakers can take you to never-never land if you let them. But you have to give them premium gas to get you there.

I think you would be better off in your case to get the 1.7 Maggies, that saves you 3 1/2 grand right there. Get that 500 watt Bryston with the better Bryston pre-amp, and I think you will never look back and be happy, happy, happy.

noted, alien

Just a heads up, James Tanner of Bryston and Wendell of Magnepan has just started a "MAGNEPAN CHAT ROOM" in the Bryston section at the Audio Circle forum.

For those of you who are familiar when Magnepan's "reluctance" with all things internet, this is a big deal. Hope it last.

http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=91238.0

has anyone heard maggies driven by the parasound halo a21? if so, can you compare it to the bryston 4b sst2 or 4b sst?

So I just called the source for the Carver drivers. They're still not in. "We don't have an eta on the container yet, sometime this month." Sounds like they're coming on a ship from China. Grrrrr.

Seems a little harsh, the3rdalien. The 3.7's have a larger sound stage and go significantly deeper than the 1.7's. I guess we'll have to agree to disagree; I would put my money into speakers first, then everything else. I certainly don't feel the preamp is unimportant, but would not be the highest priority; at best, level with the other major components. Of course, my system is clearly not up to your standards, or maybe my ears of lead prevent me from running from the room.

Whatever - Don

@go-sox. This one is kinda long, but maybe can help someone
The reason I suggested maybe 1.7’s to you is that they are also 3-way speakers as are the 3.7 and 20.1.
They are not that much smaller than the 3.7 and with 500 clean watts/channel, it may rival my system or even beat mine.

With the money you save on the speakers, you could buy 2 Vandersteen subs and have a more complete and overall more gratifying system because the subs will help make definition and help create that holographic sound stage.

What I did was buy the 3.6’s new from my audio dealer and hooked them up to my Onkyo. I played the same song I took with me to the store (on cd) and I was so disappointed that I called the store and asked the guy what was wrong? Where was all that pinpoint imaging?
What happened?
That’s when I learned about the electronics end of it. The store owner didn’t tell me that the Maggies were hooked up to a $10,000,00 ARC amp, a $10,000,00 ARC pre-amp, and a 8 or $9,000.00 ARC cd player, all from their Reference series products, when I first listened to the speakers. Plus everything had the exotic cables and interconnects and power conditioners in the mix at the store too. I didn’t know about any of that stuff. I just knew I spent 5 grand on these speakers and they are not even close to the magic I heard in the store.
The speakers still sounded nice, clean, etc. at home, but the magic I thought I was buying was not there, at all.
So I borrowed a Rogue Audio pre-amp from him to see if that would fix it. It did change things some but put a hum in the system that I couldn’t get out. That was lucky it hummed.
Then I borrowed a used Parasound amp from him and that was a nice, nice improvement. So I bought that and hooked my old Onkyo pre-amp with it and I knew something was there then. The amp was 385watts/channel 4 ohms. There was still lots of magic still not there though and I would turn it off after listening for awhile because the music was boring me I guess, and I wasn’t happy with the sound quality really.
Then I learned this Parasound amp was 1000 watts run in mono mode 4 ohms. So I went shopping on ebay and got the 2nd one for $425.00. I paid $742.00 for the 1st one.
Now that woke things up. Each speaker had its own amp, and with some really clean power. That was just lucky too. Still have that Onkyo pre-amp, but now I am starting to hear some real magic.

Now I am wondering how to get the rest of the magic, upgrade cd player or pre-amp?
I try a ARC LS 17 pre-amp, nice but seemed the timing wasn’t in sync with the music dvds, and I just wasn’t happy.

The new ARC Reference 5 had just come out at this point. So I bought a used ARC Reference 3 off a audio website because the guy lived in the neighborhood and could deliver it. I paid 5 grand for that.
At first I wasn’t sure it was worth it. But then as I am listening to it for awhile, I realize its like it isn’t there, the speakers are not there. All there is, is this wonderful magical music.
That was a WOW moment, and I have had plenty of WOW moments since then.

To try to describe the sound:
The current set-up turns the whole wall from end to end, from floor to ceiling into a wall of music and it’s a few feet thick (depth). It doesn’t hit you for a few minutes about the depth of the music. Somewhere along the line it hits you that the music just is. That it exists in space.

It also has soooooo much clean power that you can transport yourself
Into the fabric of the music itself. I don’t know how else to explain it, but it is a mind-blower. You can’t believe the building is still standing.
I have blown fuses, tripped breakers, and activated the auto-shut off on the amps for overheating them and sometimes do all that in one night to see if I can break anything with the bass or bust a glass with all that clean highs. Sometimes just because you can not believe what you are hearing, it is sooo loud! But sooo real.

I have done nothing special to the speakers other than abuse them.
Well I did put them on top of my amps, so now they are 80” tall. I don’t know if that is a good idea, but they fit perfectly and have been there for over a year. That let me make a set of speaker cables that are a foot or less in length and they are suspended in mi-air. The amps and pre-amp are linked by xlr cables.
I was thinking of modding the speakers when I 1st got them, but they sound so good already that I can’t do that.
I hope maybe any of this can help you in deciding your dilemma over what to do.

I know one thing. I bought the speakers and it turns out that was a good thing. Getting that ARC Reference 3 was maybe the game changer. I can NEVER let that go…unless there is a Reference 5 coming. The amps provide uncompromising power. But I think the pre-amp is the real boss here. It gives the directions and the commands. These speakers deliver the directions/information precisely.

If my credit was cool and I didn’t mind having a car payment for a few years so to speak. I would get the 20.1’s with the reference series ARC products and live happily ever after. I have heard them is why I say that.

Anyway good luck and have tons of fun.

Seems a little harsh, the3rdalien. The 3.7's have a larger sound stage and go significantly deeper than the 1.7's. I guess we'll have to agree to disagree; I would put my money into speakers first, then everything else. I certainly don't feel the preamp is unimportant, but would not be the highest priority; at best, level with the other major components. Of course, my system is clearly not up to your standards, or maybe my ears of lead prevent me from running from the room.
@DonH50
I was thinking that it probably was a little harsh after the fact too.
I don't mean that Emotive is bad. It may be the very best bang/buck out there. Its just when you leave home listening to this, it is so hard to listen to my friends system.
Of course there is very hugh dollar difference between the 2 systems. I don't mean to upset you or anyone else with my opinions.