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The Official Magnepan Owners Thread - Page 79

post #2341 of 3513
how about a martin logan's center with the maggies?
post #2342 of 3513
Quote:
Originally Posted by ss9001 View Post

how about a martin logan's center with the maggies?

Most martinlogans use dynamic woofers for the bass. They might not match the speed of the maggie's
post #2343 of 3513
Quote:
Originally Posted by ss9001 View Post

Have some questions for the gang

Anyone compare the CC3 with the CCR & can comment on sound differences? Big jump in price - is it worth it? I have 3.6's as fronts & currently use the CC3.

Also, what about the bass stand vs the DWM woofer panel?

Besides cost, my other concern is the complex bass mgmt. Good or bad, I use 80 hz and let the chips fall where they may. The Magnepan method may work just fine but does not appeal to me since it seems to require another set of interconnects from the front preamp outs to the sub, in my room setup that's about 45 ft run - yuck. Not interested and not an elegant solution, IMO.

The ideal would be a processor that had independent Xovers, but as fellow Pioneer owners know, we don't have that option.

How about leaving the sub as yes in the proc, set Xover to 80 and just run the CCR center output to the woofer panel first - it strips off the bass & sends the rest to the CCR....has anyone done it this way?

All thoughts are welcome. I am probably going to audition the CCR in a few weeks.

How do you get sound to your subs now?

I think if you use the woofer panel, it has a crossover and the output runs to the small speaker
post #2344 of 3513
Quote:
Originally Posted by ss9001 View Post

Have some questions for the gang

Anyone compare the CC3 with the CCR & can comment on sound differences? Big jump in price - is it worth it? I have 3.6's as fronts & currently use the CC3.

Also, what about the bass stand vs the DWM woofer panel?

Besides cost, my other concern is the complex bass mgmt. Good or bad, I use 80 hz and let the chips fall where they may. The Magnepan method may work just fine but does not appeal to me since it seems to require another set of interconnects from the front preamp outs to the sub, in my room setup that's about 45 ft run - yuck. Not interested and not an elegant solution, IMO.

The ideal would be a processor that had independent Xovers, but as fellow Pioneer owners know, we don't have that option.

How about leaving the sub as yes in the proc, set Xover to 80 and just run the CCR center output to the woofer panel first - it strips off the bass & sends the rest to the CCR....has anyone done it this way?

All thoughts are welcome. I am probably going to audition the CCR in a few weeks.

Disclaimer: I need to do more listening so my comments are based upon very limited exposure. These are all my opinions, my system, my tastes, YMMV -- actually will vary! Also note I do use an active crossover from my mains (L/R) to my subs (pair of Rythmiks). Take that, Pioneer!

1. The CCR uses a true ribbon tweeter with the usual bass'ish/mid panel. The top end is a hair better, but honestly at my age (50+) I really couldn't tell unless it was loud and I was close. It was nowhere near enough for me to justify the large price differential. As Magnepan and my dealer pointed out, the CCR is made to match the ribbon-tweeter-ed 3.x and 20.x series, but when I called both Magnepan and my dealer said the CC3 would be fine with my IIIa's. They also both said the CCR was purchased more by 20.x owners... With full-range L/R Maggies (with ribbon tweeters) I have not missed the center ribbon.

Aside: Note your CC3 claims 80 Hz bottom end, whilst the CCR (and newer CC5) claim 200 Hz. Big difference in low end. You must use a woofer with the CCR, IMO. Which leads to...

2. What I have missed is the bass. My current console and setup does not have space for the speaker-stand that a I really would like. I have debated but so far not tried re-arranging to accommodate but I eventually will. I miss having the extra octave or so on the bottom end much more than the top. Spec-wise and size-wise there is little difference among the various Maggie "woofers" so I would (will) get the CC-speaker-stand because it simplifies mounting the CCx on top and provides the required crossover making for easy and seamless integration.

3. I piddled with Magnepan's scheme and just found it wasn't worth the effort for me. if I did not have the active crossover setup (something I have used for ages), I would use the CC3 plus CC speaker-stand for the center, hook up the L/R normally, and plug the sub into the LFE input and be done with it. With 3.x I would set the crossover at 60 Hz. (Actually, as you probably know by now, I would spend a week or two measuring, piddling, and assessing to choose the optimal crossover. Which would probably be 60 Hz. )

HTH - Don
post #2345 of 3513
Quote:
Originally Posted by ss9001 View Post

Have some questions for the gang
How about leaving the sub as yes in the proc, set Xover to 80 and just run the CCR center output to the woofer panel first - it strips off the bass & sends the rest to the CCR....has anyone done it this way?.

I have my center channel and my DWM woofer paired in this way. However, my center channel is the MMGC (which works well with my MMG's). It works with the Xover set at 80 Hz. My Epik subwoofer takes over below that point. However, after living with 80Hz crossover for several months I recently changed it to 40Hz for the center channel only (I have an Integra 80.3 pre/pro that allows independent Xovers) and I like it even better!
post #2346 of 3513
Quote:
Originally Posted by DonH50 View Post

...honestly at my age (50+) I really couldn't tell unless it was loud and I was close. It was nowhere near enough for me to justify the large price differential....I piddled with Magnepan's scheme and just found it wasn't worth the effort for me.

that's what I wanted...a dose of objective analysis

the audio world is so full of hyperbole anyway. I'm sure the CCR will be audibly better but not sure it's going to be $5K better including the woofer stand

Even on paper, I don't think their bass mgmt scheme is an ideal solution at all. It's a kludge. The ideal solution is design the speaker differently but the next best is a processor with independent crossovers. Unfortunately, with Pioneer gear that's not an option.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Beto3645 View Post

I have my center channel and my DWM woofer paired in this way.

Good to read that that works. I'd hate to read that the only way to properly integrate it is use Magnepans' scheme. That would kill it for me.

I may consider adding the DWM woofer panel to the CC3 and live with that awhile but I want to hear what the flagship model can do first and talk to my wallet
post #2347 of 3513
Quote:
Originally Posted by echen1024 View Post

Most martinlogans use dynamic woofers for the bass. They might not match the speed of the maggie's

maybe...

but we do it all the time with subwoofers so not sure why this would be any different

I'm really looking for someone who actually has used a M-L e-stat center with maggies and can objectively describe how well it worked for them.

not that I don't appreciate your response
post #2348 of 3513
Quote:
Originally Posted by ss9001 View Post


that's what I wanted...a dose of objective analysis

the audio world is so full of hyperbole anyway. I'm sure the CCR will be audibly better but not sure it's going to be $5K better including the woofer stand

Even on paper, I don't think their bass mgmt scheme is an ideal solution at all. It's a kludge. The ideal solution is design the speaker differently but the next best is a processor with independent crossovers. Unfortunately, with Pioneer gear that's not an option.

I may consider adding the DWM woofer panel to the CC3 and live with that awhile but I want to hear what the flagship model can do first.

Actually what is really needed is the ability to specify that the small center speaker bass goes to the front speakers

The kludge actually sounds pretty good, you run the sub off the front pre outs and turn sub to off so all bass goes to the fronts

I am still wondering why you can't try that and why you think that requires additional wiring to your sub?
post #2349 of 3513
Quote:
Originally Posted by purdyd View Post

Actually what is really needed is the ability to specify that the small center speaker bass goes to the front speakers

The kludge actually sounds pretty good, you run the sub off the front pre outs and turn sub to off so all bass goes to the fronts

I am still wondering why you can't try that and why you think that requires additional wiring to your sub?

+1 on your 1st comment

I have no doubt that it sounds good. Maybe I don't understand it completely. For some reason, to me it reads like a sub Plus setup with the sub and fronts getting all the bass at same time. unless you are connecting the mains to the sub's speaker output not the processor amps. is that the answer? what powers the fronts then? I confess, it sounds confusing to me.

and bass from the surrounds get sent to? sub, fronts or both?

if in the end, the bass is handled by sub and fronts, then that is no different than a Plus or Large setup, to use Pioneer-speak, which about everyone on the planet says is not ideal (comb filtering, uneven bass response, ringing, etc)
post #2350 of 3513
Quote:
Originally Posted by ss9001 View Post

I may consider adding the DWM woofer panel to the CC3 and live with that awhile but I want to hear what the flagship model can do first and talk to my wallet

I am awaiting delivery of a Magnepan CC5 and a DWM to be used in a "traditional" center channel setup. As soon as I can I will post my initial impressions. By the way LR's will be 1.7's and the surrounds MC1's. Rhythmic F12 for sub.

I also did not want to try the tri-center or Magnepan's bass management scheme either. Although my pre-processor has very flexible bass management I wanted my home system to behave as the re-recording studio that mixes the shows I work on, that is no phantom center (tri-center) and industry standard bass management. I wanted to review our work as closely as possible to the sound in the mix studio....within realistic constraints in a dedicated home environment. Our mix turnaround is incredibly tight. After we mix and have Producers approval the show airs three nights later! The show is still rather fresh in my dizzy head!

Our Lead male character has an absolutely amazing, deep, chesty, resonant, and articulate voice. In the years I have worked on the show I have grown very accustomed to his voice, in person, in the ADR studio, and in the re-recording studio. I am very interested how he will sound on the CC5 with and without the support of the DWM. Remember the DWM is only being used to support the CC5, the DWM is only receiving center channel signal.

Painting and electrical is done, carpet to be installed next week, Maggies to arrive late next week or early the week after. I am so very anxious!

I will report back soon.
post #2351 of 3513
Quote:
Originally Posted by ss9001 View Post


+1 on your 1st comment

I have no doubt that it sounds good. Maybe I don't understand it completely. For some reason, to me it reads like a sub Plus setup with the sub and fronts getting all the bass at same time. unless you are connecting the mains to the sub's speaker output not the processor amps. is that the answer? what powers the fronts then? I confess, it sounds confusing to me.

and bass from the surrounds get sent to? sub, fronts or both?

if in the end, the bass is handled by sub and fronts, then that is no different than a Plus or Large setup, to use Pioneer-speak, which about everyone on the planet says is not ideal (comb filtering, uneven bass response, ringing, etc)

Yes, it would be like setting sub to both, almost, but the problem with both, is the bass from the small center goes to the sub

IF you could send bass from small speakers to BOTH then it would be easier to do it


Well, your sub has a crossover right?

And the fronts have a spot where the frequency rolls off?

You set the sub crossover to be at that spot

And you have to adjust the volume on the sub
post #2352 of 3513
Quote:
Originally Posted by purdyd View Post

Yes, it would be like setting sub to both

Well, your sub has a crossover right?

And the fronts have a spot where the frequency rolls off?

You set the sub crossover to be at that spot

ok, that makes sense. both of mine do.

I'll try to keep an open mind as I evaluate this hi-priced center/woofer combo.

however, let me add 1 more caveat. sub EQ. I have a velodyne DD18 with built-in parametric EQ. I would be sure I'm in the minority that has both that capability & the added capability of using the SVS/audyssey sub EQ. you do it Magnepan's way, leaving subs turned off in the AVR/proc, then you could negate some of the benefits of sub EQ if it's audyssey based and 2) I don't see how you could use a standalone EQ like the SVS, Velodyne's SMS-1, or Anti-mode because they require subwoofer inputs, not full range preamp outputs. I'll concede that maybe audyssey in an AVR could apply a correction to the combined sub & mains response (that's what I did with the velodyne's EQ). Or use a sub with its built-in EQ, like the Velodyne. But an external solution would be difficult if not impossible to use. So, a big limitation is introduced.

Gain the illusion of a full-range maggie center, lose some or all the benefits of subwoofer EQ. Not sure that's a good trade-off, purdy.

Maybe there's a way to make it all work, but look at the convoluted effort it takes to think it all through. Not a solution for HT enthusiasts trying to optimize bass performance.

I think DonH50 said it best when he said he tried it & decided that it wasn't worth the effort for him. You may be one who doesn't need or want sub EQ, certainly with the Pioneer you don't have it

I think the ideal solution is to let the processor do its job, send the bass managed center to the DWM panel, let it handle freq's from the processor's Xover to its internal Xover (200 hz?) and let it send the rest to the CCx center. As long as the woofer panel and center are in proximity to each other, relatively in the same plane, they should be mostly in phase and that allows you to maintain all the benefits of subwoofer EQ, whether in the AVR or an ext unit. If you set the AVR's Xover higher than the DMW's low freq response, then < 40 hz would be sent to the sub anyway. I don't see how anyone could say that is not only easier to do but closer to being ideal.

If you haven't missed sub EQ, it's because you don't have it in your Pioneer Not being contrary, just saying.

IIRC, Magnepan had downplayed the role of room correction with their speakers anyway...one has to wonder if they have done so out of necessity rather than objective analysis

Remember, I've used Maggies for over 30 years and have talked with Wendell Diller (very approachable, nice guy for owners to speak with) so it's not like I'm unfamiliar with how to set them up

I'm not being contrary for the sake of it I'm trying to raise legit issues. If you & others can explain where I'm missing something, I'll listen. I'm trying to learn here.

All this came about from me talking about how to do heights, and ended up with considering a better center speaker.
post #2353 of 3513
Quote:
Originally Posted by stustan View Post

I will report back soon.

that would be great! looking forward to your observations.

in the meantime, after I've done my own in-store audition, I'd be happy to post my own impressions on the CCR & stand combo. They will only apply to that room, of course. The store has the 3.7's about 12 ft apart I'd estimate in a large room while my 3.6's are only 5.5 ft apart in a narrow one. So comparing aspects like soundstage width is impossible. Their setup sounds more expansive from the get-go.
post #2354 of 3513
Quote:
Originally Posted by ss9001 View Post


ok, that makes sense. both of mine do.

I'll try to keep an open mind as I evaluate this hi-priced center/woofer combo.

however, let me add 1 more caveat. sub EQ. I have a velodyne DD18 with built-in parametric EQ. I would be sure I'm in the minority that has both that capability & the added capability of using the SVS/audyssey sub EQ. you do it Magnepan's way, leaving subs turned off in the AVR/proc, then you could negate some of the benefits of sub EQ if it's audyssey based and 2) I don't see how you could use a standalone EQ like the SVS, Velodyne's SMS-1, or Anti-mode because they require subwoofer inputs, not full range preamp outputs. I'll concede that maybe audyssey in an AVR could apply a correction to the combined sub & mains response (that's what I did with the velodyne's EQ). Or use a sub with its built-in EQ, like the Velodyne. But an external solution would be difficult if not impossible to use. So, a big limitation is introduced.

Gain the illusion of a full-range maggie center, lose some or all the benefits of subwoofer EQ. Not sure that's a good trade-off, purdy.

Maybe there's a way to make it all work, but look at the convoluted effort it takes to think it all through. Not a solution for HT enthusiasts trying to optimize bass performance.

I think DonH50 said it best when he said he tried it & decided that it wasn't worth the effort for him. You may be one who doesn't need or want sub EQ, certainly with the Pioneer you don't have it

I think the ideal solution is to let the processor do its job, send the bass managed center to the DWM panel, let it handle freq's from the processor's Xover to its internal Xover (200 hz?) and let it send the rest to the CCx center. As long as the woofer panel and center are in proximity to each other, relatively in the same plane, they should be mostly in phase and that allows you to maintain all the benefits of subwoofer EQ, whether in the AVR or an ext unit. If you set the AVR's Xover higher than the DMW's low freq response, then < 40 hz would be sent to the sub anyway. I don't see how anyone could say that is not only easier to do but closer to being ideal.

If you haven't missed sub EQ, it's because you don't have it in your Pioneer Not being contrary, just saying.

IIRC, Magnepan had downplayed the role of room correction with their speakers anyway...one has to wonder if they have done so out of necessity rather than objective analysis

Remember, I've used Maggies for over 30 years and have talked with Wendell Diller (very approachable, nice guy for owners to speak with) so it's not like I'm unfamiliar with how to set them up

I'm not being contrary for the sake of it I'm trying to raise legit issues. If you & others can explain where I'm missing something, I'll listen. I'm trying to learn here.

All this came about from me talking about how to do heights, and ended up with considering a better center speaker.

You don't lose the ability to use sub equalization

What you lose is the ability to pick your crossover frequency, you base it on your magnepan fronts

For example my magnepan 1.7s specced to 40 Hz start rolling off around 55hz so that is where my sub's crossover is set

I could still use an external sub equalizer

I thin don said he hadn't tried this technique not that it wasn't worth it, don can weigh and correct me if I am wrong about that

You are probabaly right, the ideal solution might be the dwm,

However, I don't have the space because of the furniture I picked and the dwm is not free

I tried a lot of different things and the magnepan setup is the best solution for my ears

It doesn't cost anything to try, just some time
post #2355 of 3513
I am not sure I followed all of this so not sure exactly what technique, purdyd... I tried the Magnepan bass management scheme and did not care for it. It was a brief test as that is not how I planned to set mine up. I have historically had an active crossover to the sub and that's what I have now so I am not using the sub output. My suggestion, and what I would dearly like to do myself, is to put my CC3 on top of the CC speaker-stand woofer, just don't have space in my current setup.

Sorry if I missed the boat; I'll have more time to read through tonight or tomorrow (taking a fast lunch break between meetings at work).
post #2356 of 3513
Quote:
Originally Posted by DonH50 View Post

I am not sure I followed all of this so not sure exactly what technique, purdyd... I tried the Magnepan bass management scheme and did not care for it. It was a brief test as that is not how I planned to set mine up. I have historically had an active crossover to the sub and that's what I have now so I am not using the sub output. My suggestion, and what I would dearly like to do myself, is to put my CC3 on top of the CC speaker-stand woofer, just don't have space in my current setup.

Sorry if I missed the boat; I'll have more time to read through tonight or tomorrow (taking a fast lunch break between meetings at work).

Do you have a crossover for the center and if so, where does the bass go?
post #2357 of 3513
Quote:
Originally Posted by ss9001 View Post

that would be great! looking forward to your observations.

in the meantime, after I've done my own in-store audition, I'd be happy to post my own impressions on the CCR & stand combo. They will only apply to that room, of course.

I would so love to hear your impressions. I am jealous.....you are getting to hear a center channel/DWM combo, something that I have found to be impossible in New York. Mind you I didn't stand on my head and demand an audition before purchasing!

I am sort of enjoying being Christopher Columbus leaving the harbor to circumnavigate the flat world!
post #2358 of 3513
Quote:
Originally Posted by DonH50 View Post

My suggestion, and what I would dearly like to do myself, is to put my CC3 on top of the CC speaker-stand woofer

essentially, Don, that's what I'm thinking of as the budgetary compromise. at least to start with.

unfortunately Magnepan designed the CCR stand so that the combined height with the center is too tall for use with flat panels on most stands, since the screen will typically be only 22-24" off the floor. Wall mounted flat panels and projection screens - it's a perfect idea.

the DWM panel or the DWM-1 furniture looking panel, is what I was considering for my Kuro setup, just sit it on the floor in front of the stand, behind the plane of the fronts.

I could use the CC stand by itself but it might be weird looking with nothing sitting on top
post #2359 of 3513
Quote:
Originally Posted by purdyd View Post

I could still use an external sub equalizer

I understand everything you said but this. How is it connected into the setup?
I'm also going to read thru the CCR, CC5 & DWM manuals again.
post #2360 of 3513
One good thing came out of my 3.7 audition & owning Maggies as long as I have.

While I was waiting for the store owner to finish with a client, I also got to listen to Vandersteen 7's in another room, played an Opus 3 audiophile jazz LP on an expensive oracle TT.

Sat down and was....really underwhelmed. Not even close to what I like about Magnepans. Just another conventional box speaker. Very nice but nothing to rave about, to my ears. At the time I had no idea what the price tag for the Vandy's was. Wasn't important. I figured maybe $10-15K tops. They didn't sound as good to me as some $15K KEF References I got to hear several years ago.

Checked Vandy website & much to my shock, the 7's start at $48,000 per pair For $50K, I would have expected a more transparent sound & better imaging than what I heard. Nice but nothing special to me.

Could have been the LP but I know Opus recordings in any format are extremely well done, so kind of doubt it.

I was pleased that my $4500 speakers sounded better to me than speakers that cost 10 times as much. The best speakers I ever had the pleasure of listening to were Soundlab electrostats. Spooky real sounding.

Once again, I got reminded how much sound quality we get from Magnepan for a reasonable price.
post #2361 of 3513
Quote:
Originally Posted by ss9001 View Post

essentially, Don, that's what I'm thinking of as the budgetary compromise. at least to start with.

unfortunately Magnepan designed the CCR stand so that the combined height with the center is too tall for use with flat panels on most stands, since the screen will typically be only 22-24" off the floor. Wall mounted flat panels and projection screens - it's a perfect idea.

the DWM panel or the DWM-1 furniture looking panel, is what I was considering for my Kuro setup, just sit it on the floor in front of the stand, behind the plane of the fronts.

I could use the CC stand by itself but it might be weird looking with nothing sitting on top

For better or worse my TV is on a home-made riser (it's in the pix in this thread) on top of my console so I have the height, just no depth for the backwave. I think we should suggest to Magnepan they make a wider, lower woofer panel for this application.

For the money I would definitely get the DWM over the CCR, but that's just me. And my age.
post #2362 of 3513
Quote:
Originally Posted by purdyd View Post

Do you have a crossover for the center and if so, where does the bass go?

No, the center is hooked conventionally and is a "small" speaker to the AVR. As I said, that is it's biggest drawback. Fortunately, most of the deep bass is replicated in the L/R and LFE channel (which in my setup also goes to the L/R mains) so I didn't really notice the lack when I switched from a full-range'ish center to the CC3. In fact, I kind of wonder because the sound seems much better with the CC3 despite the lack of bass; perhaps because I don't have the extra center bass to deal with. I dunno'...

I have said before I think Magnepan's decision to up the -3 dB point to 200 Hz on the new CC5 and CCR (from 80 Hz on the CC3) is a mistake. That is way too high IMO, and is one reason I ruled out the CCR when I was considering adding the center to my system. I am not sure how deep the CC3 really goes, however (or my MC1 surrounds and rears, for that matter).

I have been tempted to buy or build a woofer for the center but have not had the time, money, and/or inclination. It sounds pretty good as it is, in my fairly small room. If I had it in a bigger room (as in days of yore), I would want the woofer, but would also have the room for it. For now, I am still thinking about how to add the speaker-stand. That may happen this summer (thinking of rearranging things a bit).
post #2363 of 3513
Quote:
Originally Posted by DonH50 View Post


No, the center is hooked conventionally and is a "small" speaker to the AVR. As I said, that is it's biggest drawback. Fortunately, most of the deep bass is replicated in the L/R and LFE channel (which in my setup also goes to the L/R mains) so I didn't really notice the lack when I switched from a full-range'ish center to the CC3. In fact, I kind of wonder because the sound seems much better with the CC3 despite the lack of bass; perhaps because I don't have the extra center bass to deal with. I dunno'...

.

Then you have it hooked up just like magnepan recommends

And just like I have it

You don't miss the bass because it is coming out of the fronts
post #2364 of 3513
You mean I am not missing the center bass?

I guess I am not sure I remember what Magnepan suggested. I am not letting my Maggies run full-range; the AVR "sees" a full-range L/R pair, but I use an active crossover between AVR and amps (one amp for the Maggies, then the subwoofer amps). I do not think this is quite what Magnepan suggested but will have to look. Later.

I would still like to get the center deeper.
post #2365 of 3513
Found it. Here is what Magnepan suggests:

Quote:


Set the processor center channel for small center channel speaker. If your processor provides variable crossover points for small center channel speaker, try crossover points between 100-200 Hz. Set the processor for large left/right speakers (if you have Magneplanar on-wall speakers, such as MMG Ws or MC1s, set the processor for small left/right speakers.

Set the processor for no subwoofer. Even if you are using a subwoofer, you will get better performance from your MMG C by using the no subwoofer setting on the processor. If you want an explanation for this unusual set up procedure, please call Magnepan. Connect your subwoofer to the left/right preamp outputs of your receiver or processor.

Set the subwoofer crossover points to the lowest frequency setting. Move the crossover point slowly to a higher frequency as you are listening to music. When the subwoofer overlaps with the Magneplanar, the bass will become muddy. When this happens, lower the crossover point.

The difference between this and my setup (I do not know about yours) is that I am not connecting the sub the L/R outputs, summing them to mono for the sub. My subs are stereo, in parallel with the mains. I prefer to keep the subs stereo, though that goes against today's convention. I'm an old dog, decided upon this scheme ages ago, and simply stuck with it.

I did try Magnepan's scheme and prefer mine. I prefer to take the LF load off my Maggies, and I prefer stereo subs. That said, today's crossovers are typically steeper than the ones I used years ago, meaning less localizable sound from the sub. I did not try summing the crossover's outputs to the sub (no need in my setup, and I am tired of fiddling with the system -- I hardly have time to listen to it now, let alone muck around with it more).

Either scheme gets around the whole bass management issue as the AVR will send the bass and LFE to the large L/R speakers.
post #2366 of 3513
BTW, I am also curious about the ML/Maggie integration. It seems like an obvious choice, but my guess is ML owners have an ML center, and Maggie lovers, a Maggie center. Anybody have a friend who has ML's?
post #2367 of 3513
p.s. Note the CC speaker-stand is a couple of inches shorter than the DW 1 or DWM, but you do give up LF (50 Hz -3 dB instead of 40 Hz).
post #2368 of 3513
Quote:
Originally Posted by ss9001 View Post


maybe...

but we do it all the time with subwoofers so not sure why this would be any different

I'm really looking for someone who actually has used a M-L e-stat center with maggies and can objectively describe how well it worked for them.

not that I don't appreciate your response

I have heard the Maggie CCR and CC and I think that they sound superior to the MartinLogan stage center.
post #2369 of 3513
Quote:
Originally Posted by DonH50 View Post

Found it. Here is what Magnepan suggests:

The difference between this and my setup (I do not know about yours) is that I am not connecting the sub the L/R outputs, summing them to mono for the sub. My subs are stereo, in parallel with the mains. I prefer to keep the subs stereo, though that goes against today's convention. I'm an old dog, decided upon this scheme ages ago, and simply stuck with it.

I did try Magnepan's scheme and prefer mine. I prefer to take the LF load off my Maggies, and I prefer stereo subs. That said, today's crossovers are typically steeper than the ones I used years ago, meaning less localizable sound from the sub. I did not try summing the crossover's outputs to the sub (no need in my setup, and I am tired of fiddling with the system -- I hardly have time to listen to it now, let alone muck around with it more).

Either scheme gets around the whole bass management issue as the AVR will send the bass and LFE to the large L/R speakers.

I don't think that magnepan is suggesting summing l/r to mono

What magnepan is suggesting is sending the bass from the center channels to the fronts

With current bass management in receivers this means turning the sub to off and center to small - fronts will automatically be large

This means all the bass is now on the fronts

So the subwoofer will have to be run from the fronts

Whether you use an external active crossover and external amps or the crossover in the sub doesn't matter, it is all the same thing, in the general sense of what magnepan is suggesting
post #2370 of 3513
As I said, the difference lies in this statement in their instructions:

"Connect your subwoofer to the left/right preamp outputs of your receiver or processor."

This sums the L/R into a mono channel to drive the (single) subwoofer. The rest of your statements I agree with. I'll try again: there are two differences in my setup:

1. I use two subwoofers, left and right. This keep stereo separation through the bass region. This does not really matter for the deep bass below 50 Hz, and reduces localization of the subs above that. Ages ago I found I could localize a sub somewhere between 50 and 60 Hz; others at different frequencies. With a steep crossover this is less an issue; with a gentler slope even crossed over at 50 Hz there is still signiificant content in the sub at 100 Hz as the sound does not instantly drop to zero on either side of the crossover frequency.

2. I use an active crossover so the panels do not see the deep bass. Their distortion gets very high when presented with high-level very LF sound, and limits their linearity and dynamic range for the rest of their frequency range.

If you have two subs but no external crossover you can easily implement (1) if you wish. I found in the past sending deep bass to my MG-IIIa's was not something they really liked (this was with music, long before the HT days).

I attached a picture showing the two schemes. I did not show the amplifiers nor distinguish between preamp and amplifier outputs of the AVR (should be obvious).

HTH - Don
LL
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