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The Official Magnepan Owners Thread - Page 80

post #2371 of 3520
Quote:
Originally Posted by DonH50 View Post

As I said, the difference lies in this statement in their instructions:

"Connect your subwoofer to the left/right preamp outputs of your receiver or processor."

This sums the L/R into a mono channel to drive the (single) subwoofer. The rest of your statements I agree with. I'll try again: there are two differences in my setup:

1. I use two subwoofers, left and right. This keep stereo separation through the bass region. This does not really matter for the deep bass below 50 Hz, and reduces localization of the subs above that. Ages ago I found I could localize a sub somewhere between 50 and 60 Hz; others at different frequencies. With a steep crossover this is less an issue; with a gentler slope even crossed over at 50 Hz there is still signiificant content in the sub at 100 Hz as the sound does not instantly drop to zero on either side of the crossover frequency.

2. I use an active crossover so the panels do not see the deep bass. Their distortion gets very high when presented with high-level very LF sound, and limits their linearity and dynamic range for the rest of their frequency range.

If you have two subs but no external crossover you can easily implement (1) if you wish. I found in the past sending deep bass to my MG-IIIa's was not something they really liked (this was with music, long before the HT days).

I attached a picture showing the two schemes. I did not show the amplifiers nor distinguish between preamp and amplifier outputs of the AVR (should be obvious).

HTH - Don

Don,

I understand your setup but the forest view is

Run the mid bass from the center channel to the fronts

That is the big picture view

Ideally bass management in receivers would handle this properly but they don't

Magnepan is just giving you an idea on how to work around avr limitations, it is not the ONE way to do it

Using one or two subwoofers, active crossovers, external amps is a detail unique to your configuration

Two subs don't matter, if the bass sent to it is suitably low

Sending deep bass to the fronts is not ideal So you could do as you have done,external crossover

Or run the speaker wires to the sub and use its crossover

Or simply send the bass to both fronts and sub and see what it does

At suitably low levels it is not an issue, the Maggie's cant spit out really low suff anyway and attenuated the other stuff

On the other hand what you have done is implement the method in the optimum way with the cost of external components
post #2372 of 3520
Quote:
Originally Posted by ss9001 View Post


I was pleased that my $4500 speakers sounded better to me than speakers that cost 10 times as much. The best speakers I ever had the pleasure of listening to were Soundlab electrostats. Spooky real sounding.

Once again, I got reminded how much sound quality we get from Magnepan for a reasonable price.

Key phrase above. Others may disagree but part of what you heard was the difference in sound quality rather than a degradation of it. I've owned my share of maggies and they are my favorite but I must say that maggies are not boxes and boxes are not maggies.
post #2373 of 3520
Quote:
Originally Posted by javry View Post


Key phrase above. Others may disagree but part of what you heard was the difference in sound quality rather than a degradation of it. I've owned my share of maggies and they are my favorite but I must say that maggies are not boxes and boxes are not maggies.

I am not sure what your point is, there was no mention of degradation of sound

Electrostatics are not boxes, that is obvious

Personally I agree, Maggie's have a pretty good price performance ratio
post #2374 of 3520
^^
I wasn't sure what the point was either

Looks promising that I'll be going back to local dealer next weekend for a listen to the CCR & speaker stand combo. He has to setup a processor to play the center. I'm not sure this will be 5.5 X better than the CC3 but hey, won't know until I go, right?
post #2375 of 3520
I have a Magnepam 1.7 with Quad Elite seperates and I want to pair a subwoofer to it. Which sub should I use and how should I hook it up for best sound?
post #2376 of 3520
I use Rythmik (http://www.rythmikaudio.com) as their servo design integrates well with my Maggies and they sounded the same as the $3k - $5k subs I auditioned. Rythmik has has a single-band PEQ built-in and accepts L/R preamp outputs. You will probably get as many opinions as people on what sub is best.

Since the Quad Elite series does not include a crossover nor bass management as far as I can tell, you'll need to use the crossover in the sub. If you get Rythmik or another brand that has L/R inputs you can get a couple of RCA splitters (Y cables) to split the L and R signal (each) so that one output the splitter goes to the sub and one to the L/R amplifier inputs. If you have the integrated amp, you don't need the splitter, just use the preamp outputs.

If you get a sub with a single input, you'll need to get an RCA summer. This may look like a Y cable/adapter, but has resistors inside to keep from shorting the L/R outputs (thus turning everything into mono, usually undesirable).

This will run your Maggies full-range. The next step would be to pick up an active (or passive, though I prefer the isolation and buffering of active) crossover. These can range from fairly cheap (e.g. dbx223s, around $200), through expensive (e.g. Marchand, maybe $500), to very expensive (e.g. Bryston, I think around $3k, with features to match). You place the crossover between the preamp and power amps to split the signal frequencies. This prevents the very lowest frequencies from going to the Maggies and sends them to the sub instead, cleaning up the Magnepan's sound since the panels no longer have to deal with large amounts of deep bass (IMO).

HTH - Don
post #2377 of 3520
Quote:
Originally Posted by purdyd View Post

I am not sure what your point is, there was no mention of degradation of sound

Electrostatics are not boxes, that is obvious

Personally I agree, Maggie's have a pretty good price performance ratio

bad choice of words on my part guys - only meant that you will always hear a difference when you compare a planar to a box -
post #2378 of 3520
Hi Echen

I am using my MG 3.7 with a Paradigm Studio Sub 12, my Dealer installed with the suiting software ? I must say I am not missing much of the lower range with my 3.7 but guess that with the 1.7 you profit quite a bit more from a sub ! You can use the 2nd preamp out for connectin the sub - bonne chance ?
post #2379 of 3520
Quote:
Originally Posted by CJ-one View Post

Hi Echen

I am using my MG 3.7 with a Paradigm Studio Sub 12, my Dealer installed with the suiting software ? I must say I am not missing much of the lower range with my 3.7 but guess that with the 1.7 you profit quite a bit more from a sub ! You can use the 2nd preamp out for connectin the sub - bonne chance ?

The only problem is unless I want to buy 2 subs, my Quad Elite pre amp has no sub out so I must buy a external crossover. Could you reccomend any crossover for about $400.
post #2380 of 3520
As I said above, most subs have a crossover built-in so you could get by without an active crossover at first, as long as the sub(s) includes a crossover. You would just split the L/R signals to your sub (through a summer circuit if the sub does not have L/R inputs).

For a crossover, less than $200 would pick up a dbx223xs (XLR balanced I/O) or dbx223s (TRS I/O, then use 1/4" to RCA adapters from Monoprice or whatever -- that is what I an doing).

The subwoofer forum is set up to answer all sorts of sub-related questions and may be more helpful.

Simplified explanation:
1) Single sub with L/R (summer) inputs
L preamp output --> Y cable --> L amp input, L sub input
R preamp output --> Y cable --> R amp input, R sub input
Adjust sub crossover etc. appropriately. Rythmik has a continuous phase control to match to the L/R speakers; other brands may have something similar.

2) Single sub, only one sub input
L preamp output --> L amp input, summer input
R preamp output --> R amp input, summer input
summer output --> sub

The summer is usually a passive resistive device (cable or small box) that sums two signals without actually shorting them together like a simple Y cable would do.

HTH - Don
post #2381 of 3520
Hey guys, I acquired a set of 1.6QR's a couple months back and have been enjoying them ever since. Got the pair for 700 along with some new cloth. The guy selling them is a salesman at a higher end audio shop here in NH and he was going to re-sock them and sell them in the store. I inspected them while they were apart and they were in superb shape. Details of that process can be seen below.

Anyway, my Paradigm studio center was not blending well at all so I ordered a MMG C about a week later. I love it but I did blow fuses with movies. I am using an XPA-3 and Onkyo TXNR 809. I placed a call to Magnepan and was advised that going to a 5amp over the 4amp would not be an issue. I did that and have not had an issue at all until the other night. We were watching Real Steel and towards the end I popped the 5amp fuse. I had it pretty loud; it was not quite ref level but darn near it. No biggee as I had plenty of spare fuses. I just lowered it a tad and put in the new fuse. My question to you all is do you think going up to a 6amp would be an issue with the MMG C? It doesn't have the tweeter section like the 1.6's do. Which I have only blown a fuse on those when purposely trying to see what the speakers limits were. Nice to report that I had those at insane levels when it popped. Levels I would never listen to anything at. Excess of 105db they were when it popped. Why is the MMG C fuse protected at all? Thoughts anyone?

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Edited by audioholicJeffL - 6/9/12 at 4:40pm
post #2382 of 3520
I think I popped a fuse once, maybe twice in decades of owning and playing Maggies, but that was before the HT revolution.

Where is the crossover set on the center? The MMGC is only rated to 100 Hz....

How large is your room, and how far are you from the speakers?

Continuous operation at too high power can melt and separate the foil in the panels. I am not sure about QR models, but overheating earlier panels could also cause the wire to separate from the panel substrate, leading to a buzzing sound.

I would be tempted to get one of the larger centers, but a more cost-effective solution might be to buy another MMGC and wire it in series with the present one to give you twice the panel area.
post #2383 of 3520
Quote:
Originally Posted by DonH50 View Post

I think I popped a fuse once, maybe twice in decades of owning and playing Maggies, but that was before the HT revolution.
Where is the crossover set on the center? The MMGC is only rated to 100 Hz....
How large is your room, and how far are you from the speakers?
Continuous operation at too high power can melt and separate the foil in the panels. I am not sure about QR models, but overheating earlier panels could also cause the wire to separate from the panel substrate, leading to a buzzing sound.
I would be tempted to get one of the larger centers, but a more cost-effective solution might be to buy another MMGC and wire it in series with the present one to give you twice the panel area.

The crossover is set to 150 where Audyssey set it. I am about 12 1/2 back and the room is 13.5x25. Putting in the 5amp did pretty much solve the issue except for the other night. I think the 6amp would solve it for me compelety but I also don't want to damage it either.

I thought about using two as well. Just wondering how it would effect imaging and all and what would be the best way to stack them? Might need to call Magnepan on that one.
post #2384 of 3520
Blowing fuses is a sign too of too much power; while I am sure there is design margin, going 50% higher is getting up there.

I'd probably stack them if there's room between the sub and bottom of the screen. However, call Magnepan and see what they suggest; side-by-side would be easier to place and might provide more of a center fill.

Let us know what they say...
post #2385 of 3520
Quote:
Originally Posted by DonH50 View Post

Blowing fuses is a sign too of too much power; while I am sure there is design margin, going 50% higher is getting up there.
I'd probably stack them if there's room between the sub and bottom of the screen. However, call Magnepan and see what they suggest; side-by-side would be easier to place and might provide more of a center fill.
Let us know what they say...

I think I will call them this week. However, after thinking about it would I really be gaining anything with two and wiring them in series? Parallel is out of obvious reasons but in series you don't get the net gain. It would cut amp power back down but then that results in it just being turned up higher to get the level back where it was. My other thought was using one MMG on its side. Has anyone ever tried this and if so what were the results. Magnepan really needs to come up with a better and more robust center. One with response down into the 60-70hz range. Something more like an MMG on its side would be a perfect match with all their line.
post #2386 of 3520
Quote:
Originally Posted by DonH50 View Post

Blowing fuses is a sign too of too much power; while I am sure there is design margin, going 50% higher is getting up there.
I'd probably stack them if there's room between the sub and bottom of the screen. However, call Magnepan and see what they suggest; side-by-side would be easier to place and might provide more of a center fill.
Let us know what they say...

Perhaps not so much too much power as too much clipping. Some amplifiers will clip when they are ask to provide more power. While Maggies are not horrible loads, they are 4 ohm speakers. Many amps lose composure when facing that impedance load and asked to produce large amounts of power.

I wouldn't increase the value of your fuses, this might result in damaging the speaker.
post #2387 of 3520
I am not sure what you mean by "net gain". It may not save any power but you would have twice the radiating area so should get more output (volume) before blowing a fuse.

Since the MMGC is only 5 ohms I would not wire in parallel as the impedance would be pretty low for most amps.

Someplace in this thread is a discussion of using an MMG on its side; not sure if it was done or just discussed.

A number of us have opined a center that went deeper would be better. Magnepan's answer to date has been the various woofers, like the CC Speaker Stand, DWM, and DW 1. It is difficult to get high displacement from a panel (dynamic or electrostatic) so output is related primarily to panel area. A panel large enough to provide output and bass matching the much larger L/R speakers is difficult if not impractical. Their other answer is the tri-center approach, but aside from various technical issues I do not think you have the room in your set-up.

It looks like the center is behind the mains. You could try moving the center forward into the same plane as the L/R Maggies to increase its effective volume at the listening position.
post #2388 of 3520
Quote:
Originally Posted by DonH50 View Post

It looks like the center is behind the mains. You could try moving the center forward into the same plane as the L/R Maggies to increase its effective volume at the listening position.

That pic is the old center. I have since removed that stand from the wall and placed the MMG C on a short stand on top of the sub. It is out 3ft from the wall same as the L and R. Another thought would be using a single MC1' on its side or use two of them one top and one bottom. Any thoughts on that?
post #2389 of 3520
Quote:
Originally Posted by robertawillisjr View Post

Perhaps not so much too much power as too much clipping. Some amplifiers will clip when they are ask to provide more power. While Maggies are not horrible loads, they are 4 ohm speakers. Many amps lose composure when facing that impedance load and asked to produce large amounts of power.
I wouldn't increase the value of your fuses, this might result in damaging the speaker.

My XPA-3 is rated 300watts into 4ohms. I don't think clipping is the issue here. I have never blown a fuse on the 1.6's in normal use because their fused on the tweeter section only. With the MMG C the whole thing is protected so a lot more juice is going through the fuse.

I guess I would be happy if they just updated the MMG C with the quasi ribbon speaker section like the MC1's. I know the other center speakers have it but they are only rated down to 200hz and that is not acceptable to me.

If the MC1's can not be used on their side without some weird sound anomalies then I do have one other option. I could reduce my screen size from 106 down to 90-95 and setup the MC1's as the dual center option. That would be my last option though unless I can get a screen that cost less than my Carada was. I am not paying 750 for another screen.
Edited by audioholicJeffL - 6/10/12 at 9:02am
post #2390 of 3520
Quote:
Originally Posted by DonH50 View Post

A number of us have opined a center that went deeper would be better. Magnepan's answer to date has been the various woofers, like the CC Speaker Stand, DWM, and DW 1. .

Well, the other solution that Magnepan suggests is to run the bass to the large fronts. This is not the same as a tri-center, at least the way I understand it

http://www.magnepan.com/tri-center
Edited by purdyd - 6/10/12 at 9:10am
post #2391 of 3520
Quote:
Originally Posted by purdyd View Post

Well, the other solution that Magnepan suggests is to run the bass to the large fronts. This is not the same as a tri-center, at least the way I understand it

Yeah I read all that too but that is just not a good answer in my opinion and defeats the purpose the high resolution room correction systems we have now. That is really a pre-modern processor answer from Magnepan. They need to improve the center. I don't see why taking the MMG C and making it a tad wider and adding the ribbon tweeter section like an MC1 would be such a big deal. The MMG C is almost there. It just needs to be a tad bigger with a tweeter section. Problem solved.
post #2392 of 3520
Quote:
Originally Posted by DonH50 View Post

I think I popped a fuse once, maybe twice in decades of owning and playing Maggies, but that was before the HT revolution.
They have fuses?

Who knew? wink.gif


Next you will tell me there is a resistor in the back of them for adjusting the high frequency......

Reference level? 105db? I would have to wear ear plugs.


I say take the fuse out and put in a solid chunk of metal and run 'er full throttle, full speed ahead!
post #2393 of 3520
Quote:
Originally Posted by purdyd View Post

Reference level? 105db? I would have to wear ear plugs.
I say take the fuse out and put in a solid chunk of metal and run 'er full throttle, full speed ahead!

I only did that to see what the limits of the speaker were. Interestingly too I heard no audible sounds of distress. The fuse on the left simply went. I won't be doing that again anytime soon though. It was beyond loud.
post #2394 of 3520
Quote:
Originally Posted by audioholicJeffL View Post

Yeah I read all that too but that is just not a good answer in my opinion and defeats the purpose the high resolution room correction systems we have now. .

Why do you think that? Room correction features in the AVR still work.

I agree, it would be nice to have some more bass out of the center or add the woofer if you have the money and room, but the work around, does..... well, work.

It just seems like most people just don't really get their minds around the whole concept.
post #2395 of 3520
The MMGC is their entry-level product, and they have chosen to set the low-frequency cut-off higher on their higher-end speakers. I am sure they have sound reasons for doing so (I and you can probably think of several good ones). The CC5 has a quasi-ribbon tweeter, for around $1k, and the CCR a true ribbon, for around $4k. You can get a tweeter, just have to pay more. And, they are actually less sensitive than the MMGC...

@purdyd: Seems like we can't agree about anything, eh? In any event you are right; I was thinking of adding more bass to the center speaker, not their scheme of running the L/R large. That is certainly something worth trying, though I do not care for running very deep bass to the L/R panels but that is based on a lot of history and not listening of their newer speaker lines. I also had the higher (200 Hz) cut-off of the CC5/CCR in mind vs. the 80-Hz cutoff of the MC1s or 100 Hz of the MMGW's. While more LF would be of benefit IMO, that is probably not the reason for the blown fuses, especially with a 150 Hz cutoff as the poster stated.

I do not think clipping is the problem since the poster stated earlier he was using an XPA-3; I think there is simply too much power to the speaker. You can certainly remove the fuse and run them as loud as you like but there is the danger of damage. Your call...

The panels act like a line source over most of their frequency range, so laying one on its side would provide limited spreading past the ends of the panel (same as normal). You'd have to tilt it up a bit due to limited "vertical" dispersion and keep the listening position within the speaker boundaries, or get a couple and angle them to increase the image width.

At very high volume we are less sensitive to distortion and long-term damage may occur subtly due to overheating of the wires.

I do not think I have anything else to contribute to this one... - Don
post #2396 of 3520
Quote:
Originally Posted by purdyd View Post

Why do you think that? Room correction features in the AVR still work.
I agree, it would be nice to have some more bass out of the center or add the woofer if you have the money and room, but the work around, does..... well, work.
It just seems like most people just don't really get their minds around the whole concept.

With Audyessy XT the highest resolution filters are in the sub channel where the most noticable issues in rooms occur. I have my fronts crossed over at 50hz now and I like the way it blends with the subs. There is no way I am my setting my receiver to sub no and letting the LFE channel through to the L and R panels. I am not having an issue with the sound of the center anyway. Because It is sitting right on top of my sub, the redirected bass from the center channel and the center are both coming from the same place. My issue is the fuse blowing with movie soundtracks.

I guess my real question is just how fragile is the MMG C panel anyway? I suspect the fuse is being blown by some high transients in the film content but are those even close to being long enough in duration to actually do any kind of damage to it? I mean my paradigm studio center tweeter could not possibly any more robust and it is neither fuse protected and never had any damage to it all the years I had it up front.

Oh and thanks for your feedback guys. These are my first maggies so I am just trying to find out all I can. I do think I am hooked now and will never go back to conventional speakers. I am going to sell my monitor 7's, the center and the rears and put some MMG's in the bedroom and some MMG W's or MC1's as surrounds in the HT. I am going all the way smile.gif
Edited by audioholicJeffL - 6/10/12 at 12:22pm
post #2397 of 3520
There are now two things being discussed: bass management and extra bass in the center, which is probably not the cause of your center's fuse blowing, and the original fuse-blowing issue.

If you set your mains to Large then Audyssey will use the extra filters for LF, I would assume. Not saying it is the ideal solution, but as purdyd said room correction should still work OK. Unless XT only adds the extra filters to the sub channel? I do not know.

It's hard to compare to your other center because the MMGC is essentially a one-way speaker. No crossover to reduce power to the tweeter (there is no "tweeter", it's all one big, err, small, happy panel). The panel sees higher power than the tweeter alone, and since it is probably less sensitive (and lower impedance) it is using more power than your other center.

Damage could be because of a large transient that exceeds excursion limits enough to rip the panel (hopefully not) or long-term heating that causes the wires to break (melt) and/or separate from the backing material (substrate). There is also the risk of flexure breaking the wires where they connect to the panel. Even a fast-blow fuse does not blow instantaneously; very short transients don't provide enough heating. My guess is a loud passage, like an explosion or such, is loud enough for long enough (hundred's of ms or more) to blow the fuse. Since fuses tend to work on average power over time*, much larger transients may be OK and not damage the speaker. Or not. I do not know their design limits, thus the need to ping Magnepan again. If they do not actually physically damage the panel, then short passages should not cause the panel to overheat significantly.

It would be nice if power limits were published that related to the max average and instantaneous power the panels can take. That is, the amount of power that causes immediate physical damage or "bottoms" the panels, and the amount of average power that causes failure due to overheating. Of course, it gets complicated quickly for multi-driver systems, since there is also frequency dependence.

Question: Does the CCR use magnets on both sides like the 20.1 did (I do not know about the 20.7)?

* A fuse blows when too much power is converted into heat and melts the fuse. Thus, it could be too much current for too long a time, or a brief but much larger current surge that causes rapid breakdown.
post #2398 of 3520
Quote:
Originally Posted by DonH50 View Post

There are now two things being discussed: bass management and extra bass in the center, which is probably not the cause of your center's fuse blowing, and the original fuse-blowing issue.
If you set your mains to Large then Audyssey will use the extra filters for LF, I would assume. Not saying it is the ideal solution, but as purdyd said room correction should still work OK. Unless XT only adds the extra filters to the sub channel? I do not know.
It's hard to compare to your other center because the MMGC is essentially a one-way speaker. No crossover to reduce power to the tweeter (there is no "tweeter", it's all one big, err, small, happy panel). The panel sees higher power than the tweeter alone, and since it is probably less sensitive (and lower impedance) it is using more power than your other center.
Damage could be because of a large transient that exceeds excursion limits enough to rip the panel (hopefully not) or long-term heating that causes the wires to break (melt) and/or separate from the backing material (substrate). There is also the risk of flexure breaking the wires where they connect to the panel. Even a fast-blow fuse does not blow instantaneously; very short transients don't provide enough heating. My guess is a loud passage, like an explosion or such, is loud enough for long enough (hundred's of ms or more) to blow the fuse. Since fuses tend to work on average power over time*, much larger transients may be OK and not damage the speaker. Or not. I do not know their design limits, thus the need to ping Magnepan again. If they do not actually physically damage the panel, then short passages should not cause the panel to overheat significantly.
It would be nice if power limits were published that related to the max average and instantaneous power the panels can take. That is, the amount of power that causes immediate physical damage or "bottoms" the panels, and the amount of average power that causes failure due to overheating. Of course, it gets complicated quickly for multi-driver systems, since there is also frequency dependence.
Question: Does the CCR use magnets on both sides like the 20.1 did (I do not know about the 20.7)?
* A fuse blows when too much power is converted into heat and melts the fuse. Thus, it could be too much current for too long a time, or a brief but much larger current surge that causes rapid breakdown.

Thanks for the input. In answer to your audyessy question it has more resolution in the sub channel. 128x in the sub vs 16x in the other channels. Multi eq XT32 has 512x in all channels. Even with that I would never want to redirect the LFE channel to the fronts when I have two Titanic 12's tuned to 21hz being run by a Behringer EP-2500. No way I want movie LFE going into my fronts. Not an option for me.

I get what our saying and I guess there is no way to know for sure what is popping it. Short or long term. I may just up it to 6amps and take my chances. At least it will be somewhat protected and I think it may move the threshold high enough that it won't happen again. Of course, the other option would be to live it and keep a lot of fuses around. I have not popped it in over a two months with the 5amp suggested by Magnepan. It does kind of suck though right in the middle of something important.

See you did have more to add wink.gif
post #2399 of 3520
Thanks, I have not looked much at XT, though I did read what I could about XT32 (reviews and various white papers) since I am contemplating an AVR using XT32.

It'd be interesting to see what Magnepan suggests. If it is transients, a 4-A slow-blow might be better than a 6-A fast blow, I don't know. It could also be you are near the limits of the 5-A fuse's average power and so after a couple of months it has degraded to where a loud passage will blow it.

I have a pair of subs and an active crossover so I sidestep the issue, though of course it raises other issues...

At the end of the day it's a $300 speaker. Not cheap, but if you put in a 6-A fuse and blow it, at least replacing it won't kill the kid's college fund.

I would love to see a 48" x 12" high version of the center that went down to 60 Hz or so.
post #2400 of 3520
Quote:
Originally Posted by DonH50 View Post

I would love to see a 48" x 12" high version of the center that went down to 60 Hz or so.

Amen brother, with the quasi ribbon tweeter too wink.gif If they could do that for around 600 I would be all over it!

It looks like they did have it right with the CC3. It was rated to 80hz and was a two-way. Why in heck did they stop making it??
Edited by audioholicJeffL - 6/10/12 at 2:05pm
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