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The Official Magnepan Owners Thread - Page 81

post #2401 of 3488
^^
to make way for the CCR wink.gif

Which, BTW, I got to audition yesterday. It is better on integration than the CC3, it was pretty obvious after listening to 2 cuts on the Chris Botti in Boston blu-ray and confirmed by several songs on SACD I brought in. I didn't have to listen to the rest I had brought in to determine what I came in for.

The question is whether it's worth the big upgrade expense to me. I came to the conclusion that $1800+ for the CC Speaker Stand bass panel was not good value for me, the $800 DWM woofer panel does the same thing, just not as "elegantly".

More later...
post #2402 of 3488
In my mind, for owners other than those with the 2 top models, the CC3 was the "best" choice for a center. And it is not a bad choice for 3.6's. The CCR just blends a bit better which for 3 times the cost, it should wink.gif

DonH50, I'm with you on the bass mgmt issue. Adding 1 of the bass panels to a CC3/5/R is preferable to the full range l/r scheme.

And that will be the way I go. The 1st step I take is add a DWM to my CC3, let the AVR do it's job low pass filter to the subs < 80, then let the DWM handle frequencies between 80 - 200 on the CC3. With Pioneer's implementation of a single Xover, that should help fill the gap for the CC3. I have no desire to universally raise my Xover to 100+ since that further degrades the integration of 2 subs with Maggie panels.

The CCR is still there as an option at a point when budget & desire for more improvement intersect smile.gif

Will probably be ordering the DWM later this month or next. Stay tuned.
post #2403 of 3488
CCR sound -

On the Botti Blu-ray, on 1 song that had Sting and another vocalist who I didn't recognize, there is no doubt the CCR was better on producing a seamless sound with ribbon tweeter'd Maggies. How much better is the big question wink.gif

In this song, Sting was on the left, the other guy on the right. Both vocals had some bleed into the l/r channels in addition to the center. The 3.7's were ~12 ft apart so soundstage was very wide, extending past the boundaries of the projection screen.

When each one took turns singing, you could precisely localize both of them between the center and each respective main speaker, with no audible disparity in tonal texture between the speakers. IOW, it was pretty darn seamless. I know that as good as the CC3 is, it can't quite pull that off...there is a difference in tonal character or thinness between it and the 3.6's, it may be "slight" but is it is audible. I'd be willing to bet that in a side-by-side comparison, there would be a more distinct difference between the way the vocals sounded coming directly from the CC3 and each side speaker if I could play the same recording at home.

In fact, I am going to do just that....I have ordered the Botti blu-ray and hope I can give this a try in a week or so.

The other thing I'm hoping to accomplish is ask my local dealer if he'd let me do an in-home eval of the CCR for a day. Maybe he'll say yes smile.gif
Edited by ss9001 - 6/10/12 at 3:28pm
post #2404 of 3488
With you, Steve. Since my room is narrow and I sit close the image "gap" has not been noticeable, but then again I am far less critical of sound when watching movies and have not tried an audio BD or SACD. Been meaning too...

The CC3 was actually replaced by the CC5, not sure the difference from the CC3 since both have a mid'ish panel and QR tweeter. Except the obvious change from 80 Hz low end (CC3) to 200 Hz (CC5, matching the CCR). The CCR adds a true ribbon tweeter, but I just could not justify the cost difference for a very slight sonic improvement. Especially to my 50+ year-old ears! However, I cannot believe either the CC5 or CCR is adequate for the center with a 200 Hz cutoff; I would consider a woofer panel a requirement. frown.gif

I did not realize the cost difference between the CC Speaker Stand and DWM. Wonder why since the DWM (or DW 1) is actually a little larger than the Speaker Stand and play just a little lower. Price of doing the cabinet work on the Speaker Stand, I suppose. Knowing all that, if and when, I will go for a DWM as well!
post #2405 of 3488
Quote:
Originally Posted by audioholicJeffL View Post

My XPA-3 is rated 300watts into 4ohms. I don't think clipping is the issue here. I have never blown a fuse on the 1.6's in normal use because their fused on the tweeter section only. With the MMG C the whole thing is protected so a lot more juice is going through the fuse.
I guess I would be happy if they just updated the MMG C with the quasi ribbon speaker section like the MC1's. I know the other center speakers have it but they are only rated down to 200hz and that is not acceptable to me.
If the MC1's can not be used on their side without some weird sound anomalies then I do have one other option. I could reduce my screen size from 106 down to 90-95 and setup the MC1's as the dual center option. That would be my last option though unless I can get a screen that cost less than my Carada was. I am not paying 750 for another screen.

Some folks will tell you that 300 watts is not a lot. smile.gif Your amp may be clipping at 105db (movies can demand a lot more instantaneous power than music). I would check with Emotiva. Are you using any sort of dymamic room correction? If so, power may also be boosted at some frequencies.

I may be wrong, but I've been around Maggies for a long time and clipping is the main culprit for blown fuses. If you don't normally listen at those loud levels, you should be safe.
post #2406 of 3488
My Maggie Home Theater is in the throws of it's first set-up and it is going very well except for one Big issue! I also have some Maggie center channel comments below that might be of interest to some here.

First the good news, All my Maggies have arrived and so has the Rythmik F12 Sub. Everything has come together beautifully, better than I expected....I had major room size concerns. I am equally thrilled with music and broadcast/blu-ray playback.

I found it harder to place the 1.7's for musical playback than the entire package for the "theatrical presentation". It also took a while for me to integrate the sub but I must say once I found the proper balance and location the Rythmik disappeared for music playback, its only signature being an increased soundstage and a subtle extension of low end decay into the soundstage. I was surprised how low the 1.7's go right out of the box (after three days breaking in). The 1.7's seem to like my room! For theatrical presentation the sub carries it's weight (pun intended) without adding bloat to the lower bass, but helps with impacts and the subterranean demands of blockbuster movies.

The CC5 playing without the support of the DWM is brilliant within it's frequency range. It is extremely articulate and detailed. It is a perfect sounding match to the 1.7's in the upper bass through the hi-end. Theatrically panned effects sweep across seamlessly and convincingly without tonal balance or volume changes.

The "body" of a characters voice (male and female) is very convincing and dimensional without the DWM and should only improve with it. Please keep in mind the above comments relate to the CC5's stated frequency range (200-20kHz). Without that consideration I would say the CC-5 sounds "thin".

The CC-5 anchors it's output firmly in the center of the LCR stage, even when standing outside the edge of the LR 1.7's in the back corners of my room. As I walk around the room the CC-5's image stays locked to the center without tonal shift or vertical venetian blind, or picket fence distractions. It just plays and sounds as if you are perfectly centered. It is a fantastic center channel design.

I am thrilled with the entire package and it is improving each day as the speakers break in.

The bad news: I have a DWM sitting unused! In all my research, in all my shopping, and in all my fact finding I failed to ask an important question and no-one volunteered one important piece vital information. Three weeks after I placed my order for the Maggies and during the week of delivery I found out that the CC5 and the DWM, when hooked up in series, presents a 2 ohm load to the amplifier. Gulp!

I took delivery and began setup with the DWM sitting and sulking silently beneath the CC-5! I had four straight days of 12 hour "loud" listening sessions with all channels being driven by my Emotiva XPA-5 and the amp was always only warm to the touch even in my ,not yet, air conditioned room. I called Emotiva and they said my XPA-5 could easily handle the demands of the Maggies as I was currently set up. but strongly urged me not to add a 2 ohm load to the center channel by hooking up the DWM and the CC5.

The solution: This is what I have come up with. I will purchase an Emotiva XPA-2 (500 watts per channel, continuous into 4 ohms all channels driven) and use that for the 1.7's. I will then use 4 channels of my Emotiva XPA-5 (300 watts per channel, continuous into 4 ohms all channels driven) for the rear surrounds (MMC-1's). the CC5 and the, DWM. I will split the center channel output from my Emotiva UMC-1 and feed the CC5 and the DWM in parallel so they each present 4 ohm load to the XPA-5.

I am open to all comments and suggestions. Please keep in mind I came in right on budget and this conundrum just broke it. I cannot afford a fix in excess of a grand. I hope the above is clear and makes sense, if not ask and I will respond.

I will report on the CC5 and DWM combination as soon as I hear them together.
Edited by stustan - 6/11/12 at 10:10am
post #2407 of 3488
Thread Starter 
I've been holding off on buying more Mags as I've thought my room (at 12.5' wide) is too narrow for 3.7s. How wide are the rooms you guys are using?
post #2408 of 3488
13.5 ft at the plane of the speakers. There is an indentation, 6" on each side, like a mini-alcove, behind the speakers, so 12.5' wide behind them. Listen almost exactly 10 ft away from them. Mine is a HT setup. But they sound fantastic with 2 ch.

Outside edge of each one is about 18" off each side wall. Close by Maggie standards but 3.6's still work. It just means your soundstage won't be as large as if they had more room and more space between them. I've been in this house for almost 20 years and Maggies still sound great to me in this room even on the short wall.

In our previous house, I had 80's era MG-I's in a great room along the long wall on each side of a fireplace, not a home theater, so I have a basis of comparison long wall vs short wall. I used the MG-I's in my current room for >10 years before going to 1.6's then the 3.6's

3.6's might sound a bit better, certainly a wider stage, if I could get them further apart. But I have zero regrets trading up to them from the 1.6's.

Recording dependent, but on recordings that have depth, I don't lack for any smile.gif. Typically get excellent depth between the speakers, sometimes with the illusion of sounds coming several ft to 5 ft or so behind the plane of the speakers. On classical orchestral music, it's a deep stage, just like you'd expect in a concert hall.

I'd say you're OK, depending on what you want to stuff between them. If this is HT, a projector screen or HDTV will work.

Some may argue that they need more room and that width is too small.

But like everything in this hobby, ymmv. Sure, it'd be great to have 15 ft or so, but it is what it is....and sound-wise it works for me. I chose to use the short wall 20 years ago.
Edited by ss9001 - 6/11/12 at 10:26am
post #2409 of 3488
Thread Starter 
My old room was 15' wide and I had an 8' wide screen between my 3.6's. I have an AT screen in the current room so the only thing between the speakers would be a center channel. I'm thinking that if I have 2' on either side and the speakers are 2' wide, that only leaves 4.5' in between, although I guess the tweeters would be 8.5' apart so maybe that would work.
post #2410 of 3488
Quote:
Originally Posted by mrlittlejeans View Post

I've been holding off on buying more Mags as I've thought my room (at 12.5' wide) is too narrow for 3.7s. How wide are the rooms you guys are using?

My small room is only 11x13x8, 1.7's are on the short wall, 3 ft in and I am very satisfied and surprised they sound as good as they do.
post #2411 of 3488
mrlittlejeans,

You've hit on the one limitation with short wall - projector screens.

I don't have one, only using a 60" plasma between them and the only way I could go with a PJ screen is use an AT screen like you and even then, an acceptable screen size would only partially cover the panel widths. Any larger screen to completely cover the panels would be way too big, well over 40 deg viewing angle. I could never get my wife to sit there - she never liked sitting near the front in cinemas wink.gif

Any reason you can't put them closer to the side walls? Unless there's furniture there, if I were you, I'd give 1 ft or maybe a tad less a try.

Side wall proximity doesn't seem to bother the sound quality, at least that's been my experience. When I went from 1.6's, I had to naturally move the speakers closer to the sides. Then, to accommodate a larger HDTV, I moved them 6" closer ea wall. So, I only have 18" now. And in both changes, I did not notice any downsides from moving closer to the wall. The local Maggie dealer didn't see a problem going to 1ft if I had to.

worth a try....smile.gif
Edited by ss9001 - 6/11/12 at 10:25am
post #2412 of 3488
Using the DWM's crossover to drive the CC5 will keep the load from being in parallel across the entire frequency band. The amp should not see less the minimum of each panel rather than the two in parallel. So, you should not see less than 3 ohms, still a little low but the amp should handle it. Maggies do not vary much in impedance so there is not a nasty lower dip as seen in some speakers. Hook it up and let us know how it sounds!
post #2413 of 3488
Quote:
Originally Posted by ss9001 View Post

Side wall proximity doesn't seem to bother the sound quality, at least that's been my experience.

Very true. Like other flat-panel speakers, Maggies radiate very little from the sides (or top and bottom) over most of their range. Makes for a narrower sweet spot but means side (and floor/ceiling) first reflections don't really matter, and it also boosts the effective sensitivity a few dB since more sound is going straight ahead and not to the sides. The biggest proximity player is the wall behind them...
post #2414 of 3488
Thread Starter 
I have my current speakers 4' out from the back wall and my screen (54" X 130") is hanging around 51" from the wall so I'm ok from a front wall perspective. I guess I just need to think long and hard about whether I should drop the cheese for them.
post #2415 of 3488
My old IIIa's are in a room that is only 13'3" wide. The speakers are about 8' apart center-to-center with a 52" TV between them, and the listening position is about 8' from the TV (near-field).

I have had numerous models through the years and listened to the rest but none of the newest models. That said, I greatly appreciated the step up in bass and sheer sound stage size going from I's to III's (and from 3's to 20's, which I cannot afford, alas). I have not heard the 1.6/1.7's, but my money is on the 3.7 being a big step up.
post #2416 of 3488
Quote:
Originally Posted by stustan View Post

The bad news: I have a DWM sitting unused! In all my research, in all my shopping, and in all my fact finding I failed to ask an important question and no-one volunteered one important piece vital information. Three weeks after I placed my order for the Maggies and during the week of delivery I found out that the CC5 and the DWM, when hooked up in series, presents a 2 ohm load to the amplifier. Gulp!
I took delivery and began setup with the DWM sitting and sulking silently beneath the CC-5! I had four straight days of 12 hour "loud" listening sessions with all channels being driven by my Emotiva XPA-5 and the amp was always only warm to the touch even in my ,not yet, air conditioned room. I called Emotiva and they said my XPA-5 could easily handle the demands of the Maggies as I was currently set up. but strongly urged me not to add a 2 ohm load to the center channel by hooking up the DWM and the CC5.
The solution: This is what I have come up with. I will purchase an Emotiva XPA-2 (500 watts per channel, continuous into 4 ohms all channels driven) and use that for the 1.7's. I will then use 4 channels of my Emotiva XPA-5 (300 watts per channel, continuous into 4 ohms all channels driven) for the rear surrounds (MMC-1's). the CC5 and the, DWM. I will split the center channel output from my Emotiva UMC-1 and feed the CC5 and the DWM in parallel so they each present 4 ohm load to the XPA-5.

The Better News: I just got off the phone with Magnepan and they clarified my "problem". There is no problem! The CC5 and the DWM were meant to work in conjunction with each other and will present a 4 ohm load to the amplifier when connected as per the instructions. They explained the CC5 and DWM should be considered a three-way system with an impedance of about 4 ohms. I just rewired and gave the system a perfunctory listen and I now have a full range center channel that sounds better than great. I will re-calibrate the system and listen all night and get back to you all.
post #2417 of 3488
Wish I'd said that. wink.gif It's also in the manual...
post #2418 of 3488
Quote:
Originally Posted by stustan View Post

The Better News: I just got off the phone with Magnepan and they clarified my "problem". There is no problem! The CC5 and the DWM were meant to work in conjunction with each other and will present a 4 ohm load to the amplifier when connected as per the instructions. They explained the CC5 and DWM should be considered a three-way system with an impedance of about 4 ohms. I just rewired and gave the system a perfunctory listen and I now have a full range center channel that sounds better than great. I will re-calibrate the system and listen all night and get back to you all.

Wonder if the CC3 will be the same way. I never thought about the impedance redface.gif
Before I buy, I think I'll call Magnepan to make sure.
post #2419 of 3488
It is NOT a problem if you use the crossover in their woofer panels; that's what it's there for. If they were directly in parallel, yeah, but you'd also be feeding full-range signals to both, a no-no. Using the crossover built into the woofer panels to drive the CCn speaker you should be fine.
post #2420 of 3488
Quote:
Originally Posted by audioholicJeffL View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by robertawillisjr View Post

Perhaps not so much too much power as too much clipping. Some amplifiers will clip when they are ask to provide more power. While Maggies are not horrible loads, they are 4 ohm speakers. Many amps lose composure when facing that impedance load and asked to produce large amounts of power.
I wouldn't increase the value of your fuses, this might result in damaging the speaker.

My XPA-3 is rated 300watts into 4ohms. I don't think clipping is the issue here. I have never blown a fuse on the 1.6's in normal use because their fused on the tweeter section only. With the MMG C the whole thing is protected so a lot more juice is going through the fuse.

I guess I would be happy if they just updated the MMG C with the quasi ribbon speaker section like the MC1's. I know the other center speakers have it but they are only rated down to 200hz and that is not acceptable to me.

If the MC1's can not be used on their side without some weird sound anomalies then I do have one other option. I could reduce my screen size from 106 down to 90-95 and setup the MC1's as the dual center option. That would be my last option though unless I can get a screen that cost less than my Carada was. I am not paying 750 for another screen.

I like the idea of a least trying the MC1s - just to see how it works. But I also have to ask if you've tried running your front left and right speakers in phantom mode? You could eliminate the need for the center speaker altogether and get the frequency range you're looking forand keep your screen size if you could get that to work. At least you could give it a try.
post #2421 of 3488
Quote:
Originally Posted by audioholicJeffL View Post

Thanks for the input. In answer to your audyessy question it has more resolution in the sub channel. 128x in the sub vs 16x in the other channels. Multi eq XT32 has 512x in all channels. Even with that I would never want to redirect the LFE channel to the fronts when I have two Titanic 12's tuned to 21hz being run by a Behringer EP-2500. No way I want movie LFE going into my fronts. Not an option for me.
wink.gif

You can run all you want into the fronts, you just won't get anything out at 20 Hz

I'd say at least try it, it won't cost anything

Might be fun
post #2422 of 3488
^^^ You won't get appreciable sonic output, but the panels will still move in response to the LF input, meaning you give up dynamic range for signals you can't hear. Think of the higher signals riding on a big LF signal; the big signal does not produce sound, but leaves less range of motion for the HF sounds.

There is no real concern with trying it, as purdyd said.
post #2423 of 3488
Quote:
Originally Posted by javry View Post

I like the idea of a least trying the MC1s - just to see how it works. But I also have to ask if you've tried running your front left and right speakers in phantom mode? You could eliminate the need for the center speaker altogether and get the frequency range you're looking forand keep your screen size if you could get that to work. At least you could give it a try.

I really like how it sounds now. Sound quality is not the issue. I just want to not pop fuses on the center is all. If it keeps up I may try using two MMG C's one top and one bottom or two across the bottom. I would call magnepan on that though first. I also may put in a 6amp fuse and chance it. I have to believe the speaker is more rugged than a six amp fuse. It has to be.
post #2424 of 3488
Disclaimer: I have no idea if 6 A is too much or not.

For reference, P = I^2 * R and the MMGC is a 5-ohm speaker so:

4 A => 80 W
5 A = 125 W
6 A = 180 W

A 6 A fuse will pass 2.25x more power than the stock 4 A. I would call them to be sure there is that much design margin.

I do not recall your room size and listening spot. If I did the math right, the MMGC will put out about 93 dB SPL at 12 feet with 80 W, thus about 96.3 dB at 180 W. A second speaker would increase the output by about 3 dB.
post #2425 of 3488
Quote:
Originally Posted by DonH50 View Post

Disclaimer: I have no idea if 6 A is too much or not.
For reference, P = I^2 * R and the MMGC is a 5-ohm speaker so:
4 A => 80 W
5 A = 125 W
6 A = 180 W
A 6 A fuse will pass 2.25x more power than the stock 4 A. I would call them to be sure there is that much design margin.
I do not recall your room size and listening spot. If I did the math right, the MMGC will put out about 93 dB SPL at 12 feet with 80 W, thus about 96.3 dB at 180 W. A second speaker would increase the output by about 3 dB.

But not wired in series correct? I thought there was only a db gain when wired in parallel and in series the gain was canceled out? Correct me if I am wrong. However power handling does increase correct? and that would also probably do the trick.
post #2426 of 3488
I am not sure I follow your questions...

Wired in series the impedance will double so there is less load on the amplifier. If the voltage is the same across the amplifier terminals then amplifier power goes down by a factor of two.

You can increase the speaker output ("dB gain") whether you wire in series or parallel. Two speakers at the same location at the same power (each) provides about 3 dB more SPL than a single speaker at the same power.

Ohm's Law: voltage = current times resistance, V = I * R; or, I = V / R; or, R = V / I
Power P = voltage times current = current square times resistance = I^2 * R = voltage swuared divided by resistance = V^2 / R

From that you can figure out the power, voltage, and current needed whether the speakers are wired in series or parallel and assuming you want the same power in each speaker as the single speaker had before. In parallel, the resistance is halved and current must increase. In series, resistance is doubled and voltage must increase.

Since your goal is to have the same SPL, with two speakers (wired either way) you can halve the power in each to keep the same SPL and hopefully stop blowing fuses.
Edited by DonH50 - 6/17/12 at 4:51pm
post #2427 of 3488
Thread Starter 
I'm going to join the club again. I should take possession of some 3.7's in two weeks or so. I can't wait.
post #2428 of 3488
Cool, except I bet it's a looonng two weeks... wink.gif
post #2429 of 3488
Quote:
Originally Posted by mrlittlejeans View Post

I'm going to join the club again. I should take possession of some 3.7's in two weeks or so. I can't wait.

Nice! bet they will sound fantastic.
post #2430 of 3488
Quote:
Originally Posted by DonH50 View Post

I am not sure I follow your questions...
Wired in series the impedance will double so there is less load on the amplifier. If the voltage is the same across the amplifier terminals then amplifier power goes down by a factor of two.
You can increase the speaker output ("dB gain") whether you wire in series or parallel. Two speakers at the same location at the same power (each) provides about 3 dB more SPL than a single speaker at the same power.
Ohm's Law: voltage = current times resistance, V = I * R; or, I = V / R; or, R = V / I
Power P = voltage times current = current square times resistance = I^2 * R = voltage swuared divided by resistance = V^2 / R
From that you can figure out the power, voltage, and current needed whether the speakers are wired in series or parallel and assuming you want the same power in each speaker as the single speaker had before. In parallel, the resistance is halved and current must increase. In series, resistance is doubled and voltage must increase.
Since your goal is to have the same SPL, with two speakers (wired either way) you can halve the power in each to keep the same SPL and hopefully stop blowing fuses.

Hmmm, I always understood it to be 3db electrical increase + 3db acoustic increase in parallel and 3db acoustic increase - 3db electrical in series so no gain in db but double power handling both ways. Maybe I have understood it incorrectly though.
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