or Connect
AVS › AVS Forum › Audio › Speakers › The Official Magnepan Owners Thread
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:

The Official Magnepan Owners Thread - Page 94

post #2791 of 3537
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cardiff Kook View Post

Beaverlake,

Your system looks amazing. I do have some questions...

Do the DWMs add sound volume to the 3.7s, or do they smooth out bass response, or both? The reason I ask is that my 3 series measures relatively flat in the bass. Sure it has a few peaks and valleys, but it is flat at 31 Hz and only down 5 db at 25 Hz.

Are the DWMs designed to give more bass or better, smoother bass? What differences do you hear with them out of the system? Which is more important for audiophile music listening, the subwoofers or the DWMs?

Your input would be really appreciated. The concept of woofer (rather than sub) enhancements is really novel and you are at the cutting edge.

The other cutting edge trend you are leading is with the three channel for stereo listening. Just to clarify, does the music only performance improve dramatically with the center channel added? I don't need a wider sweet spot, but am more interested in critical listening for one. Asked another way, do you get even better depth, soundstage and 3d imaging with the center channel?

Sorry for all the questions, but your system is awesome.

1. Both. I had B&W 803s with an HTM3s center. I didn't want to give up the mid-bass "slam". I can't comment on smoothing out the bass because I've only listened to the 3.7s once without the DWMs also running and that was during a set up exercise.

2. I don't know how to quantify the impact. I'm using the Meridian G61r room correction (handles >250Hz) so I can only assume that there is not "more bass" but there is more air moving so I'm assuming (again) that's why there is a more visceral feel to the mid-low bass. Although we haven't use a sweep generator, my dealer - who has 20+ years in high-end audio - thinks we're dropping slightly below 40Hz without a sub in my room. To reuse Don's acronym - YMMV.

3. I found the system generated significant bass without the sub. Using the Paradigm Seismic 12 added a bit more on the low end with multi-channel music. Note that Wendell's recommend set up means no sub for two channel even when I use Dolby Pro Logic II Movie or Meridian's Trifield modes. The SUB1 not only takes multichannel bass down low (claimed -3dB at 12Hz), but as good as the Seismic 12 is on music, the SUB1 is better (which is why I'm keeping it).

4. Tri-center: using the tri-center for stereo with either Trifield or Pro Logic II Movies produces "all of the above": better depth, imaging, soundstage and detail. This is evident in the sweet spot (and it was nice to hear Wendell's very explicit comments and compliments in this regard) AND also anywhere along that end of our 14' sectional. There is a slight advantage to being in the middle but the Maggie sound is consistent across the cushions - no more "head in a vice" which is why I never went to Maggies in the past. If this hadn't worked out so well (considerably exceeding my expectations) I would have sent all the kit back and installed Meridian DSP5200s.

Mind you - these seven panels are powered by seven amplification channels.

Thanks for the questions and the compliments. I find myself digging out CDs I haven't listened to in years, some of which I didn't like at the time (content, not production) and I'm enjoying it all - even a CD of contemporary Greek music we bought for a party a few years ago!

gordon
post #2792 of 3537
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cardiff Kook View Post

How do you like the sound of Maggie's for metal and hard rock? I
Jumping in, I listen to mostly Rock plus some Electronic and Trance on my system. I find the Maggies' clarity beneficial on any source.
post #2793 of 3537
Random thoughts:

I prefer about 3' from the wall behind, same as Magnepan suggests, but room treatment behind any dipole will allow you to place them closer to the wall behind and greatly improve imaging. Mine are currently about 2' from a heavily-treated wall. Imaging is fantastic, but the room is very dead -- any ambiance is what's on the recording, not added by the room. Whether that is good or bad is a matter of debate (and taste).

DWM's will add more upper bass. They can be placed to help smooth room response or other effects. For me, once the response gets solid to about 50 Hz or so I prefer to add a sub and spare the panels. They exhibit pretty high distortion down low, and driving them with low bass eats up headroom (I wrote about that elsewhere recently). I would probably add one to a Magnepan center speaker, but probably not to anything else except to solve a room mode problem. Even for that if the mode is ~60 Hz or below I'd add a good sub (or two) instead.

I find a sub beneficial for most all music. Organ tones, big drums, kick drums, movie effects etc. all have deep bass content no normal speaker will handle. To solve the issue discussed above I actually use an external crossover for my subs and run my L/R Maggies in parallel with the subs. They look like full-range large speakers to the AVR and the external crossover keeps sub and Maggies happy. And it soles the bass management issue since the AVR has no sub (so far as it knows); all bass and LFE content is routed to the mains.

An SPL calculator such as the one below can help estimate how much power you need. Magnepans are inefficient and a 4-ohm load, but I often think the whole "gobs of power" argument is overstated. One key thing to remember is that they operate as line sources above the bass region, thus picking up about 3 dB in efficiency relative to a conventional design since a line source radiates straight ahead (little power is lost to the sides and top/bottom).

Any good speaker should sound great on any material. A speaker only good on certain types of material must be intrinsically colored IMO.

SPL calculator = http://myhometheater.homestead.com/splcalculator.html

FWIWFM - Don
Edited by DonH50 - 6/9/13 at 1:37pm
post #2794 of 3537
Quote:
Originally Posted by hiprecked View Post

I visited a dealer yesterday and listened to the 1.7s. First time I had ever heard them and I loved them. We paired them up with a REL sub and it was a great listen. Dealer was ready to send me home with them and I was ready to buy, but I asked a few questions that I wasn't comfortable with the answer to. So off to the experts at avsforum!

First question was placement. I would be placing these in my home theatre room. Carpeted floor, 10 foot ceilings, room is 14 feet deep and around 35 feet wide, but my home theatre is on one side of it.

I asked how far off the wall the speakers should be, he said 18". That seemed on the low side?

Question 2 was driving the speakers. I have an Onkyo TX-NR809 which can drive 4 Ohms. But I realize that doesn't mean squat for better speakers. Dealer said any 40 watt amp could drive the 1.7s loud enough.

The dealer had the 1.7s connected to a tube amp. He does not allow for demos at home or returns. So I'm nervous about getting them home and not being able to place them right or needing to purchase a better amp for them to really enjoy them.

Appreciate your responses.

Dave

First They need at least 4 feet off the front wall!

Second just buy the MG direct from Magnepan you get 60 days money back guarantee. If you don't like them send them back.

Third you amp might be a bit light!
post #2795 of 3537
Quote:
Originally Posted by blw View Post

I'm considering Maggies. I've read their web site, but still have questions.

First, this is a HT / audio installation, in a dedicated room with sufficient space for planars. I have the required 4+ feet behind the main speakers (my current speakers are about 5' out). The video is a retractable, micro-perf 92" screen, so I have the option of placing the center behind the screen or below it, within reason. I have what i believe is sufficient power (180W @ 8 ohms, 360W @ 4 ohms).

>>360 watts @ 4 ohms should be sufficient. Though I prefer about 500 watts @ 4 ohms

I'm most interested in 1.7's. What would I use for a center? A CC5? The CC5 appears to be a horizontally oriented planar, priced about $1100. Seemingly it would benefit - greatly - from a DWM, so this is really about a $1800 center channel.

>>Yes a CC5 would be the best center channel, you could add the tri- center latter if you think you need it.

I have a micro-perf screen, an alternate proposal might be to put a third 1.7 behind the screen. However, the screen is fairly permanently mounted only 27" from the rear wall, and moreover moving the screen that far into the room probably would look rather silly. I own (all of) the aesthetics decisions in this room, so I can do it if it makes sense.

>>Not a good idea, as you said it would be too close to the wall.

The implication of the web site and some of the reviews is that the 1.7s benefit from DWMs. Since the DWM is placed inline between amplifier and the 1.7, the logical conclusion is that this application requires two DWMs. The front of the system thus is probably 2x 1.7s, a CC5 and 3x DWMs - about $5500. And a sub is still required?

>>Best start out with just the 1.7 and the CC5, get them setup properly and see if you really need them, it just depends on you room and your taste.


What to use for surrounds? I assume that Magnepan would suggest MMG or MMW. Currently I have (small) floorstanders for the surrounds, so in fact an MMG would work. They aren't anywhere near 5' from their walls, though. They would probably be closer to 15-18". Or does the lack of space for the surrounds mean that the MMW is the only real option? I should add that I currently have some rear surrounds that are VERY different from the rest of the system, and this does not seem objectionable, contrary to much advice over the years.

>>If you have the room, the MC1 or MC2 would be the best for the surrounds. I use an old CC2 for the rear surround as it's mono anyway. I don't have the room for the MC1 or MC2, so I use some old Ohm speakers for the surrounds and they sound fine to me on movies, for music I wish I had the MC1 or MC2's, but I don't have much music that has much in the surrounds anyway.

I'm also in the Richmond area, If you would like to PM me, maybe I could help some with some different ideas.
Edited by POCOBEAR - 6/9/13 at 2:53pm
post #2796 of 3537
Quote:
Originally Posted by hmunster2 View Post

Thanks, here is the link-http://www.avsforum.com/t/1476378/match-speaker-with-amplification

Would somebody please take a look at my post and offer some info?
Thanks again
post #2797 of 3537
Quote:
Originally Posted by mrlittlejeans View Post

I don't have any experience with those amps so can't help there. I'm personally a big fan of tube preamps and solid state amps. Check out the stereophile review on the KEF's. They look pretty impressive. You'll likely still need a sub but you can get a rythmik pretty cheap and they are great subs.

What pretube and ss would u recommend?
post #2798 of 3537
Re: 360w. Particularly with a sub, I have been happy with the power with my current Martin Logan Odyssey. 360w was expensive enough, 500w would have been pretty astronomical even ten years ago when I got the amp (Classe CAV-180). The ML's are not exactly efficient speakers either, although my guess is that they pull less power than the Maggies.

Sub: I have a Descent, which is a pretty fast sub. The idea would be to sell the Odyssey/Cinema/Scenario and replace them with Maggies. My thinking is that if I'm going to use a sub, there aren't many that would be more capable matching a planar. Perhaps I can go with 1.7/CC5+DMW/1.7 and the sub?

Virtually all of my music is two-channel, so my inclination is to think that the MMW's or MMGs would work fine for the surrounds. The MMGs can't be any worse than the Scenarios in terms of rear reflections, although perhaps the curved panels of the MLs may help a bit here. The rear surrounds are Triad Silvers, which are cones and generally are thought not to work at all with fast primary speakers, but they seem to do ok for rear surrounds. I suppose that it helps that there is no music that exploits the rear channels; I'm a lot pickier about music than about movies/TV.
post #2799 of 3537
blw - I kept my B&W CCM663 6" round rear surround speakers and so far the blend well enough with the "wall of Mylar" in the front of the room.

Gordon
post #2800 of 3537
I use Rythmik subs and have been happy. After trying a few others decades ago I built my own servo (using a dual-VC Infinity IRS woofer and my own home-brew PID controller) and decided that was the way to go for subs.

ML's and similar ESL's are generally comparable in sensitivity, but the transformer plus built-in woofer gives them a generally higher impedance but with wider excursions, and they usually dip very low (<2 ohms) at the top end. So arguably easier to drive depending on the model and frequency.

I agree that MMGW's should be fine for surrounds. I am using MC-1's but honestly am not sure I would notice if they were MMGW's instead. Of course, at 50+ and after years of loud music (listening and playing) my HF hearing has dropped an octave...

The curved panels of the ML's actually make reflections worse; flat panels do not radiate significantly from the sides but they do. The curved panels provide a more "spacious" sound and wider sweet spot but do cause more comb filter effects etc.
post #2801 of 3537
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by BONEHOOK View Post

What pretube and ss would u recommend?

It all depends on what you like. I currently have an Audible Illusions L3 paired with an AVA amp and the combo is great. I also have an AI M3A that I'm going to trade in for a 3B when the turntable I ordered arrives. I'll probably by another AVA amp for that setup.
post #2802 of 3537
Man, that's some serious gear you have there. I appreciate the feedback. Im pretty much exploring new territory. ive never owned any separates other than adcom. I have a vpi scout on order. I'm seriously considering the kef/sub combo. I probably can't afford a pre that nice right now. Any other suggestions on tube pre amps that are decent for maybe half that price? Thanks.
post #2803 of 3537
Vincent makes some hybrid preamps for around $700 and $1500. I have not heard them (my old ARC SP3a1 is in storage).
post #2804 of 3537
Quote:
Originally Posted by Knight7m View Post

I listen to the movies by pair of MG-20 speakers and now I'm about to add magnepan surround speakers and woofer to have 5.1 surround sound, but after extensive listening I found the sound filling my room and I can hear the sound coming from all directions even from back, look like a pair of MG-20 is sufficient for home theater. Since I never use full 5.1 speaker setup with MG-20 I cannot be certain so I thought I ask here. If I add surrounds and woofer to MG-20 will make huge sound improvement ?

My listening setup at the moment: I set digital output from DVD player to PCM two channels (not bitstreem), and I set preamp/processor to Preamp mode which is stereo only. My Preamp/processor is old Krell Audio Video Standard.
And thank you for answer.

My guess is that you would be disappointed wtih 5.1, especially if you are satisfied right now with what you've got. That happened to me when I added rear speakers to my setup with front Maggie10.1's and B&K AVR 507 receiver. I eventually went back to a 2.1 setup.
post #2805 of 3537
Quote:
Originally Posted by beaverlake View Post

blw - I kept my B&W CCM663 6" round rear surround speakers and so far the blend well enough with the "wall of Mylar" in the front of the room.

Gordon
Maybe it would be sufficient to just replace the Odyssey/Cinemas with 1.7/CC5 and just leave the unorthodox Scenario/Triad surrounds in place?
post #2806 of 3537
Quote:
Originally Posted by DonH50 View Post

ML's and similar ESL's are generally comparable in sensitivity, but the transformer plus built-in woofer gives them a generally higher impedance but with wider excursions, and they usually dip very low (<2 ohms) at the top end. So arguably easier to drive depending on the model and frequency.
Your comment implies that the Maggies are even harder to drive than my MLs - is that what you mean?

Probably the whole reason I have Martin Logans now rather than Maggies is that the local dealer ten years ago just didn't have enough power. The Maggies (probably 3.6s) sounded better except when the signals were clipped. At that time I'd never heard anything clipped so badly, and I didn't associate the symptoms with the root cause. I'd have to dig out that notebook to be sure. But know that I later discovered that the power amp was insufficient. It was a tubed CJ; I seem to remember that it was an MV60 (55 wpc @ either 8 ohms or 4 ohms) but could be wrong. This certainly happened years before the LP140 came out, so whichever amp it was definitely wasn't a power monster.

I feel pretty confident that my CAV-180 is a lot more capable of driving the Maggies than that CJ. I would think that this amp is in practice better than its rating, since it is a 5-channel amp with 360w into all five channels, but I'd be very surprised if the surrounds ever consume anything like the full 360w. Certainly when playing 2-channel music, the surrounds and center don't consume any meaningful power at all. Doesn't that mean that the power supply is fully available for the two main channels?

I'd say that if I really do need to upgrade the amplification also, this whole proposition is a non-starter. I'm not prepared to upgrade to something like (say) a Bryston 4B SST. Actually I guess it would really have to be a 6B SST since I'd need at least three channels - probably another $7k. Is a CAV-180 REALLY not capable of driving these things??? If that's the case, how does anyone drive them with any kind of tubes? A CAV-180 was not all that far from the capability of an Omega at the time. From my vantage point, the near-state-of-the-art in power amps doesn't seem to have moved all that far in ten or eleven years. (I'll exclude amps > $20k since I haven't auditioned any other than the Wavestream V8.)
Edited by blw - 6/12/13 at 1:21am
post #2807 of 3537
No, other way around. ESLs are generally harder to drive than Maggies due to their wide impedance variation. Maggies are ~4 ohms, dropping to ~3 at HF due to the ribbon tweeter, but are almost purely resistive. MLs and ESLs drop in impedance as frequency goes up, often dipping well below 2 ohms at 20 kHz. That can cause amp stability issues. ESLs are often paired with a conventional woofer as a hybrid system, which can lead to impedance variations in the bass as well.

I drove my Maggies for many years with a 75 W/ch tube amp (ARC D-79). Tube amps have a 4-ohm transformer output tap so you'll be fine.
Edited by DonH50 - 6/12/13 at 6:48am
post #2808 of 3537
Quote:
Originally Posted by DonH50 View Post

Vincent makes some hybrid preamps for around $700 and $1500. I have not heard them (my old ARC SP3a1 is in storage).

Thanx. I'll do some research.
post #2809 of 3537
Quote:
Originally Posted by BONEHOOK View Post

Man, that's some serious gear you have there. I appreciate the feedback. Im pretty much exploring new territory. ive never owned any separates other than adcom. I have a vpi scout on order. I'm seriously considering the kef/sub combo. I probably can't afford a pre that nice right now. Any other suggestions on tube pre amps that are decent for maybe half that price? Thanks.

Marsh p2000T is a great amp for the price somewhat limited in the use market. Here's a review:

http://www.positive-feedback.com/Issue45/marsh_p2000t.htm

Mates well with SS amps.
post #2810 of 3537
This is day two with the 1.7's and QSC PLX 3002. OMG!!! on well recorded discs amazing. I was concerned about some of the things that were mentioned about these maggies since they have more resolution than the mg12's. Panel slap I haven't experienced yet, too damn loud. Sandiness or grain, I have put to a placement issue. increasing the toe-in solved that. Mind you it wasn't on all recordings. lack of kick drum impact, bs. you hear and feel everything with these. I suspect any reported loss of dynamics at higher volumes is exposing weakness in amplification.

I did have a question and I cant remember the answer. The 1.7's have an impedance drop in the higher frequencies, with my amp that means when it dips to 2 ohms there will be up to 1500 watts with2 db headroom available. will this increase in available power correspond to an increase in spl at higher frequecies? if so, then it makes sense to me to install the resistors supplied with the speakers. doesn't it to maintain a flatish response?
post #2811 of 3537
Thread Starter 
You can find used audible illusions 3a's for less than $1, 500 but they don't come up too often.
post #2812 of 3537
Question about power and impedance answered in your other thread. The impedance drops for physical reasons, the response remains essentially flat. Add the resistors only if you feel the top end sounds too bright. It should have flat response without them, as always subject to the environment (room).
post #2813 of 3537
Thanx to all y'all for the suggestions....especially on the separates. Sorry to veer off the thread subject. I'm almost positive ill be getting the ls50's and maybe a sub. Now I just need to decide on power and cdp. I have a vpi coming. Again, my main listening is rock and room is small 11x12. Thanx again, and I'll try searching more appropriate threads.
post #2814 of 3537
thank you and thank you.
post #2815 of 3537
Quote:
Originally Posted by mrlittlejeans View Post

You can find used audible illusions 3a's for less than $1, 500 but they don't come up too often.

Thanx for your help......I'll be keeping an eye out.
post #2816 of 3537
If u see one, please let me know.
post #2817 of 3537
Hey guys , i am considering the 1.7 but since i can't demo them i just want you to tell me how good they are at imaging and depth so that i can finally take a decision.
Thanks in advance,
Carlos
post #2818 of 3537
Quote:
Originally Posted by manzano 804 View Post

Hey guys , i am considering the 1.7 but since i can't demo them i just want you to tell me how good they are at imaging and depth so that i can finally take a decision.
Thanks in advance,
Carlos

They're very good. BUT, as with all Magnepan's, you do need space behind the speakers. Depth and imaging are many times limited by the room acoustics, so some simple diffusion and dampening will help a lot. That's with good electronics. Magnepans doesn't need a lot of power, but they do need a lot of current.
post #2819 of 3537
If you have about 3' behind the speakers, or can add treatment behind them, the imaging should be fine.

Power and current are related:

P = power (Watts)
V = voltage (Volts)
I = current (Amperes)
R = resistance (Ohms)

P = V * I = V^2 / R = I^2 * R

Magnepans are a pretty benign ("easy") load in that their impedance (resistance) does not vary much over frequency, unlike most conventional speakers and ESLs. They are nominally 4 ohms, which means they do require more current for the same voltage as 8-ohm speakers, and twice the power at a given voltage compared to 8-ohm speakers. They, like most all dipoles, are not terribly sensitive so may require more power than a conventional speaker. However, they act as line sources for most of their frequency range, meaning little energy (sound) is lost to the sides and top/bottom. That improves their sensitivity for most listeners so you just need an AVR or amplifier that can handle a (benign) 4-ohm load. You can use an SPL calculator such as the one linked below to estimate the power you require; note you can add about 3 dB to their sensitivity rating, and that the power is into a 4-ohm load.

http://myhometheater.homestead.com/splcalculator.html

Be prepared to spend some time dialing in their position for the best sound. The back wave makes them more placement-sensitive than conventional speakers. All here on this thread (and all ESL owners) agree the sound is worth the extra time up-front.

HTH - Don
post #2820 of 3537
Don and Audiojan thanks a lot for your insights , they are very helpful to me since i live in Colombia ( South America ) and here i don't have the chance to listen to the speakers so i have to trust in people as kind as you to make a right decision. The matter is that when i buy audio gear in the States i have to pay custom tax in my country (30% $660 for the 1.7) plus shipping cost that in this case (95 Lbs) is $ 350, besides if i don't like what i buy i have to keep it cause returning stuff from here is forbidding.
That's why i want to thank you for your interest and advice.
I am going to use the speakers for a 2 channel music system. I own an Onkyo TX-NR 3008 rated at 270 watts at 4ohms., with a Burr Brown DAC 24/192 , THX Ultra 2 Plus certified.
The room i will be using the system is very small and that is what worried me the most (13 x 10 x 8.5 ) , i was almost going to give up because of this , when i saw in this thread that Stustan has a similar room ( 13 x 11 x 8 ) and is using 1.7 as frontals in a HT configuration , that gave me hope that i can set them up in my room.
Do you think the receiver i have is enough or i should consider a different amplifier ?
What about the room ? Do you think that with a proper acoustic treatment i can make it work to get a proper imaging , depth and soundstage ?
I would place the speakers aprox . 2.6 ' away from the front wall with 5' between them and 7.6" away from the side walls and i will be seating at 7.2 ' from the speakers with 2' of space behind my listening position.

Best regards,
Carlos
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:
  Return Home
  Back to Forum: Speakers
AVS › AVS Forum › Audio › Speakers › The Official Magnepan Owners Thread