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The Official Magnepan Owners Thread - Page 95

post #2821 of 3513
Sounds like it all should work, AVR included. Plenty of power for that room. Enjoy!
post #2822 of 3513
Don thanks, one last question . Is the 1.7 also good to listen at low volume cause i have read in a review that they are not as good at low volume. Is that true ?
Carlos
post #2823 of 3513
Don thanks, one last question . Is the 1.7 also good to listen at low volumes ( i have read in a review that they are not as good at low volume as at high volume). Is that true ? Am i still going to have the detail and all the goodness they offer ? Cause most of the time i listen at low volume.
Carlos

Sorry for the double post.
post #2824 of 3513
I have read that over and over and I do not believe it. I have listened to numerous Magnepans over the years and often at lower levels. There is no reason they should not sound fine at lower levels; they are so clean they sound great at high levels and I think people get their perceptions reset. Any time you listen at lower levels, with any speaker, the bass and to a lesser extent the highs are going to sound rolled-off. Loudness compensation was designed to help with that aspect of our physiology.
post #2825 of 3513
Great to hear that . Thanks a lot for your opinions.
Regards.
post #2826 of 3513
Gordon recently provided a great plug for the Magnepan DWM Bass panels. I am very intrigued by this possibility. Word on the street is that at the CES, the 3.7 combined with two DWMs was competitive with $100k plus speakers (competitive as in it smoked most of them)

Has anybody else had experience, good or bad with the DWMs with full range Maggie's?

Have you used one or two?

Any Subjective feedback?

How much louder is the mid and lower bass in db with the addition of the panels? Did it lower your extension?

Sorry for all the questions, I've read all the stuff on Magnepan's website but this is shaping up as a significant development for panel speaker lovers. We've always had better quality bass, now we can fine tune better quantity to match our rooms and needs.
post #2827 of 3513
Quote:
Originally Posted by manzano 804 View Post

Stustan has a similar room ( 13 x 11 x 8 ) and is using 1.7 as frontals in a HT configuration , that gave me hope that i can set them up in my room.
Do you think the receiver i have is enough or i should consider a different amplifier ?
What about the room ? Do you think that with a proper acoustic treatment i can make it work to get a proper imaging , depth and soundstage ?
I would place the speakers aprox . 2.6 ' away from the front wall with 5' between them and 7.6" away from the side walls and i will be seating at 7.2 ' from the speakers with 2' of space behind my listening position.

Best regards,
Carlos

Carlos I sent you a PM. After sending the PM and coming here and reading the thread and seeing what Don had to say....Don and I speak the same!!!!!!! Frighteningly so!!!!

Good, Good Luck to you. Keep all of us up to date please.

Are you watching the Confederations Cup!!! ???
post #2828 of 3513
Quote:
Quote:
Originally Posted by DonH50 View Post

I have read that over and over and I do not believe it. I have listened to numerous Magnepans over the years and often at lower levels. There is no reason they should not sound fine at lower levels; they are so clean they sound great at high levels and I think people get their perceptions reset. Any time you listen at lower levels, with any speaker, the bass and to a lesser extent the highs are going to sound rolled-off. Loudness compensation was designed to help with that aspect of our physiology.

I understand what you are writing BUT I disagree somewhat. They.7s do a better job at low volumes than previous models but there is still some congestion (IMO). I've had a few excellent amps pushing my 1.7s and at times 3.7s. The 3.7s are clearer at low levels but both models "sing" when the volume is raised. I try to listen at peaks of 85db and the sound is exceptional. At low levels (say around 25 db) they just sound as good.

I haven't done any experiments so I can't say anything about ranges.
post #2829 of 3513
Hi guys , i finally took the decision and ordered the 1.7 , but is going to take 4 to 8 weeks to be shipped , so the wait will be long. I only hope i have made the right decision .
Thanks to those of you who gave me some advice .
I will let you know when i get them,
Regards,
Carlos
Edited by manzano 804 - 6/21/13 at 5:59am
post #2830 of 3513
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cardiff Kook View Post

Gordon recently provided a great plug for the Magnepan DWM Bass panels. I am very intrigued by this possibility. Word on the street is that at the CES, the 3.7 combined with two DWMs was competitive with $100k plus speakers (competitive as in it smoked most of them)

Has anybody else had experience, good or bad with the DWMs with full range Maggie's?

Have you used one or two?

Any Subjective feedback?

How much louder is the mid and lower bass in db with the addition of the panels? Did it lower your extension?

Sorry for all the questions, I've read all the stuff on Magnepan's website but this is shaping up as a significant development for panel speaker lovers. We've always had better quality bass, now we can fine tune better quantity to match our rooms and needs.

When setting up the system we listened to just the 3.7s w/DWMs for a number of tracks including some HD downloads. We did the same with both the NAD M25 and again with the McIntosh 8207. To reiterate I have a DWM paired with ea h 3.7 panel and each panel has its own amp channel (four of the seven channels).

While still very accurate I also experience considerable "bass slam" without boominess. The definition and detail in the mid-low bass is excellent. In my room my rep Gary and I took some measurements using test tones and estimate tha in my room we are dropping to the mid-30s before the bass just fades away. Because I wanted the sub active for two channel (including Dolby ProLogic and Meridian Trifield) I set the system to no sub. The LFE goes to both L and R as well as the sub and we have the sub crossed over at around 50Hz. The setup is a bit of a wiring nightmare but it works.

Bottom line (no pun intended) is that Maggie's can go low. The DWMs help. And I'm feeding all four panels a lot of clean power (200w). Having listened to "Toad" from the Cream reunion concert at Albert Hall I can assure you the Maggie's + DWMs can rock with the best of them.

As for the $100k question I have been to many Definitive Audio "Music Matters" gatherings and I haven't heard anything less than $100k (stereo speakers plus electronics) that comes close (with the possible exception of a personal bias for high end Meridian gear).
post #2831 of 3513
Quote:
Originally Posted by robertawillisjr View Post


I understand what you are writing BUT I disagree somewhat. They.7s do a better job at low volumes than previous models but there is still some congestion (IMO). I've had a few excellent amps pushing my 1.7s and at times 3.7s. The 3.7s are clearer at low levels but both models "sing" when the volume is raised. I try to listen at peaks of 85db and the sound is exceptional. At low levels (say around 25 db) they just sound as good.

I haven't done any experiments so I can't say anything about ranges.

I'm running 3.7s + DWMs. Are you sure about the 25db lower listening level? I just sampled my office at 10:15pm with only background air conditioning/air movement noise in an otherwise "pin drop silent" house and my sound pressure level meter was registering 36-38db. Was your 25db entry a typo?

Although I do tend to listen a bit loud, I run an average of 85+ db with peaks well into the 90s (some concert videos run louder) for most material. That being said, when I do listen at lower levels I don't percieve any loss except Don's aforementioned reference to human hearing sensitivity anomolies at low SPLs.

gordon
post #2832 of 3513
Thanks, Gordon

Based upon your earlier comments I looked up a local store with the 3.7s and DWM panels. They used tens of thousand in electronivs and set up the 3s on the long wall about three feet from the rear wall with the tweeters out. The sound was about as bad as you can get out of the 3.7. No soundstage, three way hard pan stereo (everything was hard panned left right or middle). This just goes to show how bad the Maggies
post #2833 of 3513
Hey Cardiff - I assume you were going to finish by saying "how bad the Maggies...can sound if not set up properly for the room". I'm sorry to learn that you had what seems like a very bad experience in a dealership that should know better.

I was upstairs earlier listening to a collection of female Brazilian vocalists (if only I spoke Portuguese). Since the CD was a compilation the production quality varied significantly but on the 5 or 6 cuts that were well recorded and mixed the soundstage was much wider than the 3.7s and exhibited significant depth. On the not so good recordings everything collapsed into the center. I've had to adjust my attitude when listening and remember that the system is well-tuned and performs really well on quality material. On marginal material the detail is still there, but whatever mistakes were made in recording and mixing are all too obvious.

If you are ever in the Seatlle area and want a listen PM me to set something up. Since I had an "out" to swap the Maggies for Meridian if the Maggies didn't work for me I am comfortable with my observations not being tainted by the tendency to cover buyer's remorse with false praise. Besides - Wendell liked 'em! ;- )

gordon

[EDIT] But then again I'm running the tri-center set up with Meridian Trifield processing and not listening in stereo so clearly YMMV... ghl
post #2834 of 3513
...how bad the Maggie's can be set up. They had them way too close to the rear wall with no treatment.


That said, considering the bad set up, they then added the DWM panels in and out while listening to bass heavy tracks. The improvement in slam was extremely effective. It was exactly what I want... Deep, powerful bass that doesn't boom like a subwoofer. It was the best bass I have heard in a Maggie. Moving the DWMs around definitely allowed the bass to be smoothed to the room. My guess is I could have gotten them to sound even better with careful experimentation. .

My take away is that the DWMs are extremely impressive. As for the 3.7, I am sure they are great too, but as with all Maggie's need to be set up with care. These ones weren't unfortunately.

I am seriously entertaining getting a set to add to my 3a's. My speakers are set up about five feet from the short wall, tweeters in. My room has reinforcement at 28 Hz, and thus goes flat to 32 Hz (at 70db) with no sub. However, it lacks power and slam at higher volumes. I think the DWM is just the ticket.
post #2835 of 3513
Yeah. I am sure the 3.7s are much, much better than my 26 year old 3 series. But as you know, they need to be set up correctly. When I hear someone say thay don't hear great soundstage from Maggie's I assume they had them set up in too small of a room, or too close to the rear wall.

Thanks for the offer. Your system sounds world class, but I am many thousands of miles away.
post #2836 of 3513
Thanks for finishing the post. I'm glad you experienced the same bass improvement that I have heard (and felt). It is good to know I'm not alone in my perception and its very good to know you might be headed toward an improved listening experience. I don't know how many Maggie dealers actually have one DWM let alone two so you were in luck. Given my current bias I would recommend that anyone interested in the DWMs should have a listen. They aren't cheap at about $800 ea but they are a relatively inexpensive upgrade considering the improved mid-bass performance even with the 3.7s.
post #2837 of 3513
I will admit I am biased. I do not like cone/box bass. I have several other speakers noted for exceptional bass. The Maggie's simply obliterate them in quality (but absent the DWMs not necessarily in quantity or sheer impact).

I listened to Tracy Chapman's debut album on some almost $200,000 Wilson speakers and then on a poorly set up 3.7 with DWMs. I preferred the midrange on the Wilson's. The soundstage and imaging was much better (though too high), but I actually attribute much of that performance deficit to bad set up on the 3.7s. On the mid bass (real sound of drums and bass guitar), I actually preferred the Magnepans with DWMs. They really were that good.
post #2838 of 3513
You should be very astonished by the way my Magnepean 3.7 sound. My renovated Threshold SA/6e amps are plugged to a SPL 2Control preamplifier (the same quality as the SPL Volume 2 reviewed at 6moons) in full symetric (XLR). Some friends and an Audio Studio Conceptor Engineer found my system amazing, especially the bass rendering. Not so deep as my JBL 1400 indeed but very very "clean".
Perhaps you've got a problem of acoustic or with ampli that don't get on with the loudspeakers. I do not need any subwoofer, I am not frustrated about that.
Best regards. smile.gif

PS: I put Two Duelund Cast resistors of 0,6 Ohms in parallel (it means 0,3 Ohms) on the tweeters. I took off the fuses and put OCC cable instead, as the Magnepan conceptor does, and use a simple DE BMC-2 DAC by toslink! on my Macbook Pro late 2011, 16Go RAM and Audirvana plus where I disabled all parameters since I use SPL 2Control as an analogic preamp, except upsampling from 44,1Khz frequencies to 88,2Khz and 48Khz frequencies when I need, to 96Khz. I am waiting for a Yulong DA8 for HD tracks...
Edited by teiki arii - 7/14/13 at 5:54am
post #2839 of 3513
Update on the DWMs for full range Maggies... (short version is these things are amazing)

I borrowed a pair of DWM woofer panels for home trial. What follows is no guarantee of what anyone else will accomplish. I am just sharing how they worked in my system with my musical tastes and in my room.

First, I have a 26 year old pair of Maggie MGIIIa's amplified by 400 watt into 4 ohm Emotiva mono blocks. My primary source is a Benchmark Dac 2 with preamp running either ITunes off a Mac or my Oppo used as a transport. I also have a Rega turntable with a Benz Ace cartridge. Secondary equipment is Sonic Frontiers tube gear, but other than the Phono preamp, these are all gathering dust in light of the superior solid state gear. My room is 14 foot by 20 with the maggies five feet out from the short wall (initially!), slightly toed in, tweeters in.

My room is in a basement with concrete floors (carpeted) and concrete walls (sheetrocked) and is exceptionally favorable for bass. My old speakers in this room with favorable reinforcement at 28 hz put out bass which measures reasonably flat to the low thirties (radio shack SPL meter) at least at lower volumes.

The Maggie bass panels were driven in parallel off my amps (initially) set up about a foot forward of the main speakers firing along and right up against the the long wall. This is how Magnepan recommends the woofers be used and despite massive experimentation, always proved to be the best arrangement. You can move the little things anywhere in the room with no effort, and you can even reverse their phase by turning them around. I tried dozens of configurations.

Here is the scoop... They add about 4db of bass boost between 50 and 200 plus hertz. If you play just one you will get about half this boost. They also have resistors which allow you to get less boost with two. I did not try resistors. The bass boost is not completely consistent though, and you can, like a subwoofer, fix peaks and valleys in your bass and midbass response by where you place the speaker, or how you toe them in. The panels allow you to dial in and smooth out or augment mid bass. They did nothing for low bass is my room. Zero. No measurable effect in any configuration.

So, the net result was always more mid bass. It was a pleasant sound. Deep and powerful. Substantially more energy. But it was still just extremely clean mid bass boost. It also had the normal problems of any room with too much mid bass. Male vocals were too chesty. Rock had lots of punch, but it never sounded right. Pleasant at times, especially on thin recordings, but not anything close to the absolute sound.

I was about to return them when it finally struck me that I was using them wrong. What I was trying to do was insert a mid bass boost to a system which was already set to sound good and balanced. If your system is reaonably well balanced today all you will get is more mid bass of very good quality (it uses the same panels as the 20.7).

It occurred to me (finally) that I should try to move my main speakers so they optimize everything except mid bass and then use the panels to tweek the mid bass. I thus moved my chair back about three feet and my speakers up about two feet. This put them about seven feet out from the front wall, with a huge, glorious soundstage and extremely deep low bass but a huge suck out in the mid bass. I then put the DWM panels out a foot ahead along the walls, angled in at me and Voila!! Everything clicked.

I now have extremely clean and powerful bass which is incredibly flat ( plus or minus 1.5 db) from 300 down to 25 Hz (-3db point). The only exception is a narrow suck out at 160 Hz, which I am still playing around with to fix with minor changes to the chair, mains or panels.

The net result is substantially better sound staging, cleaner balance, substantial gains in power and world class bass. As an example, consider the drums from James Taylor's Fire And Rain. As anyone familiar with this track knows, with a speaker that plays clean and deep, the drums hit you like a kick to the chest. This is what the DWM panels allowed me to accomplish in my system, without a subwoofer.

Another tricky disc is the Mobile Fidelity gold cd remastering of Aja. The bass is extremely deep, but if you do not play it on a very clean system capable of actually reproducing the lower notes all you get is a muddy mess. For the first time in my system, this disc has drive and power.

To say I am impressed is an understatement. My twenty plus year old 3 series are probably not worth more than five hundred dollars on the used market. However, they sound great. With the addition of the DWM panels and re-engineering my room placement, I have the best sound I have ever had in my home. The panels do not provide low bass; they provide the ability to tailor mid bass and get the best possible sound out of larger Maggies. This is why Magnepan can suggest they work with any size planar, even the 20s. They allow you to optimize speaker placement for soundstage and low bass. Brilliant!

Again, I have no idea if the same results are possible in anyone else's system or room. In my room, with my system, and my preferences the DWM panels were revolutionary. Amazingly tight bass. Powerful, full range Maggie bass without the drawbacks of a cone sub for those of us drawn to panel bass. I am getting the DWMs.
post #2840 of 3513
Hello Cardiff Kook,
do you have any photos to show us? I'd like to see some... I believe you, some people say it's better to get 3.7 and DWMs vs 20.7 but it then becomes very difficult to place them in a WAF compatible room... isn't it?smile.gif
Besides, when you say: "I then put the DWM panels out a foot ahead along the walls, angled in at me and Voila!! Everything clicked.", does that means you put the DWM panels closer or further to yourself? Or did you put them at the same distance compared to Maggies from yourself but a foot distance from the side walls? Sorry for my poor english spoken...
Edited by teiki arii - 7/14/13 at 12:08pm
post #2841 of 3513
Woo Hoo! Great news on the DWMs. Now you have experienced the overall impact of the DWMs (pardon the pun) and described the result much more effectively than I ever did. Since I started with both 3.7s and the DWMs I didn't go through the period of discovery leading to the "AHA" moment ( or should I say the " Oh S***" moment).

I'm really pleased for you - congrats on your discovery!

Gordon
post #2842 of 3513
Beaver, thanks for the encouragement. I wouldn't have borrowed them if it wasn't for you. Are you using a subwoofer as well for music, or just for movies?
post #2843 of 3513
Teiki,

I have only heard the 20.7s once, and they were in an overly small room and kind of overwhelmed it. Thus I could not give you any advice on them at all. They probably would not fit in my room, the ceiling is 7 foot, but is lower in one area due to ducts in the ceiling.

The recommendations from Magnepan are to set up the speakers equidistant to your mains but one foot closer. They recommend getting a string from the listening position to the main speaker plane, and then reducing the string by one foot. The DWMs can then be placed anywhere on this new shorter circle. If you want maximum low boost (again by low I mean 50 Hz in my room) they recommend coupling it with the side walls. This was indeed where they integrate best in my room, at least so far. If you get too much mid bass or if you reverse the phasing, I hear weird things in the lower midrange. A subtle echo effect is the best description I can think of. Very subtle to my old ears at least, but noticeable just the same.

I can try to include a picture tomorrow. Be warned though I have that ugly old burlap looking fabric on my old IIIa's. I am hoping to upgrade the socks some day, probably to black.

I am not sure if Beaverlake has his panels set up one foot closer. His experience may be different, and if memory serves he had help from the pros (owners?) at Magnepan.

Just to resummarize my earlier rambling post. The DWMs are great for full range Maggies if you need more mid bass, OR if you can move your mains and seating to get optimum low bass out of the mains and then use the panels to fix and perfect the mid and upper bass.
post #2844 of 3513
CK - Thanks (and no, I'm not feeling responsible enough to send a contribution for your purchase!)

As to the sub - Gary and I modified Wendell's recommended set up. I upgraded to a Paradigm SUB-1 and with that investment I wanted a return on ALL music, not just DVD/Bluray. So the back of my Mac looks like spaghetti junction - I have 5.0 coming from the Meridian. I'm splitting out the center 3 ways (CCR, MMC2, MMC2), I'm splitting the L&R three ways (L&R 3.7 plus DWMs plus L&R to sub). Doesn't seem to degrade the sound any. Bottom line is I'm feeding all bass to all the Maggie panels and the SUB-1, using the normal bass roll off on the panels and set the upper limit on the sub to 50-55 Hz.

As for the placement - I've posted photos a couple pages earlier - the panels are about 1 foot closer to the listening position placed perpendicular to the side walls.

gordon
post #2845 of 3513
Thank you very much for your answers.
Best regards,
teiki arii.
post #2846 of 3513
Did the panels help. I have about 4 ft behind my 3.7's and am seriously ready for treatment. Care to share how and what you used?
post #2847 of 3513
I have now lived with the MMG for three months and really like them. I wished Magnepan would sell the others speakers in their line direct cutting of the dealers! I would then upgrade. The dealer in my area is a ....... Fill in what you want
post #2848 of 3513
WSE.

Make up a list of the things, that you think make your dealer less than stellar. Go do something else for a while, then come back and look at the list again, were you too harsh, were you making reasonable request, or asking too much. Leave the list for a couple of days, does it still seem reasonable, if it does, then call Wendell at Magnapan, let him know what's going on with that dealer. You might be surprised what he might be able to do for you. Stop taking your grumpy pills and take action:p. Wendell may have other complaints on that dealer too, and decide it's time to take action. Can't hurt:).
post #2849 of 3513
Quote:
Originally Posted by POCOBEAR View Post WSE.  Make up a list of the things, that you think make your dealer less than stellar. Go do something else for a while, then come back and look at the list again, were you too harsh, were you making reasonable request, or asking too much. Leave the list for a couple of days, does it still seem reasonable, if it does, then call Wendell at Magnapan, let him know what's going on with that dealer. You might be surprised what he might be able to do for you. Stop taking your grumpy pills and take action:p. Wendell may have other complaints on that dealer too, and decide it's time to take action. Can't hurt:).

Interesting! It's simple the prices at the dealer are to high :) Since they mark up every thing from 40 too 70 points!

post #2850 of 3513
I have been on the fence as to buying some 1.7's and probably MC1's for surround. Pretty sure that's the way I am going but afraid to pull the trigger. I live in Minneapolis and the Magnepan factory is closer to me that then local dealer. I would love if I could pick them right from the factory for a little less but when I asked - they said no.
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