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The Official Magnepan Owners Thread - Page 107

post #3181 of 3520
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cardiff Kook View Post

I have a pair of DWMs and love them. I use them along the side walls about nine feet into the room, but am lucky to get much anything usable even at 50hz. I know I can get more closer to the front wall, but not much more.

The secret to get 30 hz is to reposition the main speakers much further out where low bass is reinforced. Then move the listening seat back as appropriate. This allows the main panels (MG3a's in my case) to play flat to 30 hz (actually slightly above flat in my room). The DWMs are used to fill in the missing mid bass and upper bass which dips as the main panels are moved way out into the room. This gives flat bass to 30 hz as mentioned by Wendell. It also gives substantially improved depth and sound staging. It does all depend upon having mucho flexibility in moving the speakers and listening seat.

Maggie 3 series with DWM panels are totally capable of achieving killer bass. I do not speak from experience but I would not be surprised if the combo provides similar bass and more flexibility than the 20 series due to the advantages of dialing in the bass with four separate panels.

Magnepan is onto something big here and nobody else seems to "get it". The paradigm is subwoofers, and Magnepan came up with a way to get low bass out of the three series panels without subs (or using subs only below 30 hz where they don't mess things up.)

The 20's do go a bit deeper, but really, midbass is more important sonically than bass -- there aren't many fundamentals below 40 Hz -- so I wouldn't be surprised if you're right about the 3.7 + DWM coming out on top. Also, the DWM can extend the bass response of the 3.7 itself. In that case, it's functioning like a wing to reduce backwave cancellation -- they're actually both acting like wings for one another, and the DWM against the wall is acting like a wing of twice its physical width.

Wendell always emphasizes tuning when he discusses using the DWM with the larger Maggies. They can only design their woofers for average placement in an average room. Unfortunately, room bass response varies widely. Audiophiles are reluctant to equalize and in any case you can't boost bass very much. And dynamic subs, however good, add smear. So the DWM allows you to match the speakers to the room to get flat response without the need for equalization or the smear from a sub. So not everyone is going to need them -- a big Maggie in a small room like mine will typically have too much bass -- but for those with larger or bass-shy rooms, they're a godsend.

He also points out that when people complain about Maggies sounding too bright, the problem often isn't with the highs but with insufficient midbass.

They can also extend the range of the smaller speakers like the MMG's and in some rooms and setups they'll work synergistically to extend bass response down to 30 Hz (though not all, so they don't advertise that figure). Again, it seems to be the mutual wing effect -- effective baffle size increasing through mutual acoustical coupling and the sidewall reflection.
post #3182 of 3520
Quote:
Originally Posted by bjquinn View Post

Hey I just bought a pair of used 3.3s which shipped today. Now I have to find an amp to drive them. smile.gif. I found a Carver m-4.0t for a couple hundred dollars. What do you guys think about that amp as a starter amp for my 3.3s?

Hey, congratulations! I'm afraid I know the amp only by reputation -- maybe someone else can say more? But on the basis of specs alone, I'd think it would work fine, and you can't beat the price.
post #3183 of 3520
HELP NEEDED: MAGNEPAN CC5 SETUP

All, I have just purchased the CC5 and am a bit confused after reading the setup instructions. I have the following configuration:

Onkyo 709 Receiver
1.7's Right and Left
CC5 center
Emotiva XPA-2 for the jaggies
Cheap onkyo speakers for surround and back
Apple computer for music
Oppo Blue Ray Player
Cable Box
Peachtree Audio DAC
good quality sub

If anyone has time to help me understand the setup requirements around the y-adapter, modifications to the sub, crossovers, etc...would very much appreciate if it I could call you. My local dealer here seems to be somewhat new at setting them up and I want to get the most out of this 1000 speaker...Please PM me of let me know your number and I'll call.

Thanks,

BK
post #3184 of 3520
Quote:
Originally Posted by bkent100 View Post

HELP NEEDED: MAGNEPAN CC5 SETUP

All, I have just purchased the CC5 and am a bit confused after reading the setup instructions. I have the following configuration:

Onkyo 709 Receiver
1.7's Right and Left
CC5 center
Emotiva XPA-2 for the jaggies
Cheap onkyo speakers for surround and back
Apple computer for music
Oppo Blue Ray Player
Cable Box
Peachtree Audio DAC
good quality sub

If anyone has time to help me understand the setup requirements around the y-adapter, modifications to the sub, crossovers, etc...would very much appreciate if it I could call you. My local dealer here seems to be somewhat new at setting them up and I want to get the most out of this 1000 speaker...Please PM me of let me know your number and I'll call.

Thanks,

BK

Set center, surround, and rear speakers to small, and left and right speakers to large on the receiver. Set crossover frequency of the center to 200 Hz, or, if the receiver won't let you set it that high, as high as it will go. Set the crossover frequency of the surround and rear speakers to 80 Hz. Disable the subwoofer output on the receiver. Take receiver's left and right channel preamp outputs into Y adapters. Connect one side of the first Y adapter to a line input of the XPA-2 and the other side to a line input of the sub,. Repeat for other channel. If sub has only one input, just omit the Y adapter for that channel. Connect speakers to the receiver center, surround, and rear speaker outputs respectively, except for the 1.7's; connect those to the XPA-2. Connect the Oppo and computer to appropriate inputs on the receiver. Use the pink noise DVD as per the manual to set levels and polarity at the crossover point. I don't see a role for the Peachtree, unless you want to bypass the receiver processing to listen to two channel music with just the 1.7's -- in that case, you could take a digital output from the computer into the Peachtree and the Peachtree analog outs into L R inputs of the Onkyo *if* it has a direct analog input-output option (digital bypass) or else hook up an AB switch or analog preamp ahead of the Y adapters, e.g., Onkyo preamp out OR Peachtree Dac out -> Y adapter -> 1.7 and sub.

Good luck!
post #3185 of 3520
Thanks so much for the detail, very much appreciate. Just FYI, had my system up and running beautifully and really love music, probably a 60/40 music to tv guy. To your point, I'm setup now as you recommended, one y adapter plugged into the interconnect cable port on back of receiver where normally the interconnect coming from the emotiva amp would come in (for one magnepan speaker). One of the female y adapters takes the interconnect cable, the other one takes the sub.

This works well for tv and movies, my concern is music. My understanding of this setup is center speaker mid bass will move from center speaker to the 1.7s and low bass below the crossover will hit the sub. What happens when I switch to music.....in stereo is the bass flowing to the 1.7s or to the sub as it did before I out in the y adapter and just had the single sub input plugged into the sub port on back of receiver.
post #3186 of 3520
Quote:
Originally Posted by bkent100 View Post

Thanks so much for the detail, very much appreciate. Just FYI, had my system up and running beautifully and really love music, probably a 60/40 music to tv guy. To your point, I'm setup now as you recommended, one y adapter plugged into the interconnect cable port on back of receiver where normally the interconnect coming from the emotiva amp would come in (for one magnepan speaker). One of the female y adapters takes the interconnect cable, the other one takes the sub.

This works well for tv and movies, my concern is music. My understanding of this setup is center speaker mid bass will move from center speaker to the 1.7s and low bass below the crossover will hit the sub. What happens when I switch to music.....in stereo is the bass flowing to the 1.7s or to the sub as it did before I out in the y adapter and just had the single sub input plugged into the sub port on back of receiver.

With music recordings, the bass will still be going to the 1.7's, since left and right are set to "large" on the preamp. The "Y" adapter will feed one channel in parallel to the subwoofer. Assuming for arguments sake you put the "Y" adapter on the left channel, this will consist of the full range left channel signal plus the bass from the center and surround channels. The crossover in the sub will then strip off the midbass through high frequencies, leaving you with only the deep bass that the 1.7 can't reproduce.
post #3187 of 3520
FWIWFM, I use a crossover to my Maggies to reduce the very LF energy they receive instead of running them full-range. Distortion gets high when they try to deal with large LF signals, and it wastes headroom in the amp and speakers.

IMO - Don
post #3188 of 3520
Quote:
Originally Posted by DonH50 View Post

FWIWFM, I use a crossover to my Maggies to reduce the very LF energy they receive instead of running them full-range. Distortion gets high when they try to deal with large LF signals, and it wastes headroom in the amp and speakers.

IMO - Don

Definitely a good strategy if you want more SPL -- I know quite a few people who have had success with it. But you need to have two subs or a single sub with stereo ins and outs or a DWM or an external crossover or an unusually versatile receiver or pre-pro, since most won't let you divert the midbass signal to the 1.7's without turning off the dedicated sub output.
post #3189 of 3520
I actually did it for the lower distortion, not additional SPLs, as my system will blow my ears off in my little room either way.

All you need is a summer circuit if you have one sub, which many subs already include (e.g. my Rythmiks), but you do need an external crossover before the speaker amp. I am using a dbx 223xs, cost little under $200, to split my preamp outputs to the amps and subs.

I only mentioned this because I thought the OP said he had an amp? I agree if you do not have an amp this is not generally practical.
post #3190 of 3520
Quote:
Originally Posted by DonH50 View Post

I actually did it for the lower distortion, not additional SPLs, as my system will blow my ears off in my little room either way.

All you need is a summer circuit if you have one sub, which many subs already include (e.g. my Rythmiks), but you do need an external crossover before the speaker amp. I am using a dbx 223xs, cost little under $200, to split my preamp outputs to the amps and subs.

I only mentioned this because I thought the OP said he had an amp? I agree if you do not have an amp this is not generally practical.

He does have an amp so he could do it too. I was trying to give him a solution for the equipment he had on hand. If we're talking new eqipment, he could also consider getting a second sub, two are better than one. The he could use the crosover networks in the sub. But this of course would be a more expensive solution.
post #3191 of 3520
Yeah, I have a pair. And you still need the external crossover to divert LF from the panels in my solution.

One of the drawbacks with this approach is sub placement. Since the subs are run from the same signal as the mains, you need to place them close and have the ability to adjust their phase to align with the mains at the crossover point. The AVR might do it but it depends on how well it measures delay and phase over frequency. A simple system may not know the subs are not beside the mains since it treats them as one speaker in this scheme. A one-point distance cal would not be sufficient. In my case I measured the impulse response and used the phase knobs on the subs to optimize the response. If you have good ability to time-align the sub(s) to the rest of the system they can be placed anywhere, of course.
post #3192 of 3520
Good point. I'm afraid it's always going to be a bit of a kludge, since most receivers and pre-pros aren't designed with this kind of application in mind.
post #3193 of 3520
I am looking to build a 6.1 channel HT with a phantom centre. I was looking for opinions on a few different combo's. I really would like Timbre matching for the front/surrounds. How will the MMGW timbre match with the MMG's, MG12's or MC1's? SVS sub PC12 is what I will use and the room is about 5m x 6m.

Builds I was considering:

MG12 fronts - MC1 sides - MMGW backs

or

MG12 fronts - MMGW sides/backs

or

MC1 fronts - MC1 sides - MMGW backs

or

MC1 fronts - MMGW sides/backs

or

MMG fronts - MMGW sides/backs (cheapest option)
Edited by j2037 - 1/17/14 at 7:29pm
post #3194 of 3520
Quote:
Originally Posted by j2037 View Post

I am looking to build a 6.1 channel HT with a phantom centre. I was looking for opinions on a few different combo's. I really would like Timbre matching for the front/surrounds. How will the MMGW timbre match with the MG12's or MC1's?

Builds I was considering:

MG12 fronts - MC1 sides - MMGW backs

or

MG12 fronts - MMGW sides/backs

or

MC1 fronts - MC1 sides - MMGW backs

or

MC1 fronts - MMGW sides/backs

I think you'll find that all Maggies have a strong family resemblance, but, of course, nothing will match as well as the MC-1's with themselves! I'm guessing that in a multichannel setup you won't hear a timbre difference with normal program material and MMGW's in the rear, but you would hear it if you switched between them with the same program. I wouldn't worry about it.

There are other considerations as well -- the MG 12's want ideally to be 5' or more out from the wall, so they're less suited to the typical home theater arrangement than the on-walls. On the other hand, the MC-1's are only good down to 80 Hz, so you'll have to cross your subs over higher. This will give you higher maximum SPL's but the bass won't be as clear.

I suggest you give Wendell Diller a call at Magnepan, he should be able to give you a good idea of what will work best in your application, and maybe come up with some other ideas as well.
post #3195 of 3520
How far from the wall do the MMG's require?
post #3196 of 3520
Quote:
Originally Posted by j2037 View Post

How far from the wall do the MMG's require?

How much space to you have? In terms of depth behind them, to the wall: A few feet is great. Less than two, not ideal. Less than one, maybe go a different way.

If you are pressed for space, the on wall Maggies are a better idea, since they are designed to be close to walls (doh).

In terms of what matches, here is one idea if you really have space for floor standers....

http://www.theabsolutesound.com/articles/magnepan-mg12-and-mmg-loudspeakers/
post #3197 of 3520
Quote:
Originally Posted by j2037 View Post

How far from the wall do the MMG's require?

I'd just add to what Nathan said that the floor standers all require about the same space. I'd be a bit more conservative than him in terms of how close to the wall I'd run them but he's right, you can go under 5' if you have to. But the on-walls are designed to be close to the wall so I also agree with him that on-walls like the MMG-W's or MC-1's are a better choice if space is limited.

I've found that in a home theater application without a center you can use MMG's in front of the screen and stay within the SMPTE viewing angles *but* this isn't going to work for theater-style seating because the speaker will block the view of people sitting off to the side. If your room is wide enough you can get around that by using a three-channel setup that lets you put the L and R further apart, but of course that's an added expense. So it really depends on how many people you want to accommodate. If it's just one or two viewers, the floorstanders should do OK in a two-channel setup. Here's a snapshot of my setup when I had MMG's on it so you can see the issue with the sight lines. It worked great though for people in the center:



By the way, if you're going with floorstanders, you might want to consider the Super MMG system, which has two modified MMG's and a DWM planar woofer.
post #3198 of 3520
I love the idea of wall mounting the fronts as well as the surrounds, BUT, I am a bit worried about the lack of impact with the maggies after reading this review, I like my action flicks.

http://www.avguide.com/review/magnepan-mc1-home-theater-speaker-system

Quote:

"Though the MC1s supposedly reach down to 80 Hz, they didn’t have nearly enough upper bass presence in this room. Lacking upper bass warmth, center channel information often sounded shrill and thin (though better with the MC1s mounted near the wall and angled inward). Charlton Heston’s voice at the beginning of Armageddon sounded unnatural. Quiet scenes from any source had breathtaking clarity, but volume levels had to be kept down to prevent the MC1s’ thin sound from becoming irritating. Full mid-to-upper bass is essential for playing movies at high levels without listener fatigue, and in this respect the Mirage system trounced the Maggies, emphasizing the MC1s’ need for more mid-to-upper bass."

He was using a 350Wpc Adcom multichannel amplifier.


Any opinions from people who use MC1's up front on there ability to produce impact on action scenes?
post #3199 of 3520
Quote:
Originally Posted by j2037 View Post

I love the idea of wall mounting the fronts as well as the surrounds, BUT, I am a bit worried about the lack of impact with the maggies after reading this review, I like my action flicks.

http://www.avguide.com/review/magnepan-mc1-home-theater-speaker-system

Quote:

"Though the MC1s supposedly reach down to 80 Hz, they didn’t have nearly enough upper bass presence in this room. Lacking upper bass warmth, center channel information often sounded shrill and thin (though better with the MC1s mounted near the wall and angled inward). Charlton Heston’s voice at the beginning of Armageddon sounded unnatural. Quiet scenes from any source had breathtaking clarity, but volume levels had to be kept down to prevent the MC1s’ thin sound from becoming irritating. Full mid-to-upper bass is essential for playing movies at high levels without listener fatigue, and in this respect the Mirage system trounced the Maggies, emphasizing the MC1s’ need for more mid-to-upper bass."

He was using a 350Wpc Adcom multichannel amplifier.


Any opinions from people who use MC1's up front on there ability to produce impact on action scenes?

I haven't used those speakers, but clearly he didn't have his bass management set up well -- ie, he just assumed 80 hz was the right crossover and left it at that. For a speaker rated to 80hz, I think a 100hz crossover is the lowest I'd go...and to get it right, the in room response needs to be measured and that data used for setup. For example, I've got a CC3 which is rated to 80hz, but because of where it is placed in the room, the crossover that makes the most sense after measuring the actual in room response is 140hz.

That said, in a large room, to get slamming sound, going with something like compression drivers and lots of watts will take your breath (and hearing) away a lot more readily.
post #3200 of 3520
But crossing the Sub over any higher than 80hz in my opinion and experience is not desirable, you start to hear vocals and such through the sub, to much mid in the sub. So I must cross over at 80hz for the sub, if I cut off the L/R at 100hz, will I notice the 20hz loss?

Anyone tried putting acoustic foam behind the MMGW or MC1's.

I loved my Stax SR-007's with movies through a surround processor, not exactly slam mid bass, but boy was it sweet, so maybe I will also like the Maggies light mid bass.

I just purchased a Rotel RMB-1565 for the surrounds, rated at 100 watts x 5/ch (20-20 kHz, 0.03% THD, 8 ohms) and 200 watts x 5/ch (20-20 kHz, 0.03% THD, 4 ohms)

For the fronts I plan to get the Rotel RB-1572 rated at 250 watts x 2/ch (20-20 kHz, 0.03% THD, 8 ohms) and 500 watts x 2/ch (20-20 kHz, 0.03% THD, 4 ohms)


Should be sufficient power?
post #3201 of 3520
Quote:
Originally Posted by j2037 View Post

But crossing the Sub over any higher than 80hz in my opinion and experience is not desirable, you start to hear vocals and such through the sub, to much mid in the sub. So I must cross over at 80hz for the sub, if I cut off the L/R at 100hz, will I notice the 20hz loss?

Anyone tried putting acoustic foam behind the MMGW or MC1's.

I loved my Stax SR-007's with movies through a surround processor, not exactly slam mid bass, but boy was it sweet, so maybe I will also like the Maggies light mid bass.

I just purchased a Rotel RMB-1565 for the surrounds, rated at 100 watts x 5/ch (20-20 kHz, 0.03% THD, 8 ohms) and 200 watts x 5/ch (20-20 kHz, 0.03% THD, 4 ohms)

For the fronts I plan to get the Rotel RB-1572 rated at 250 watts x 2/ch (20-20 kHz, 0.03% THD, 8 ohms) and 500 watts x 2/ch (20-20 kHz, 0.03% THD, 4 ohms)


Should be sufficient power?

Should be sufficient power, for sure.

If you want to cross over the maggies at 80 hz, you'll need to step up to the the 12's or the Super MMG or the 1.6 or 1.7 models, imo. I'm using the 1.6 and love their sound.
post #3202 of 3520
Quote:
Originally Posted by nathan_h View Post

Should be sufficient power, for sure.

If you want to cross over the maggies at 80 hz, you'll need to step up to the the 12's or the Super MMG or the 1.6 or 1.7 models, imo. I'm using the 1.6 and love their sound.

How far from the wall do you have your 1.6's? And what about the side walls?

How do the 12's compare to the Super MMG's for home theatre, I think the super MMG's might be better for HT, they got the bass panel.


I am swaying towards MG12's at the front and MMGW's on the sides. Can the MG12's be 3 foot from the back wall with heavy damping?
Edited by j2037 - 1/19/14 at 1:13am
post #3203 of 3520
Quote:
Originally Posted by j2037 View Post

How far from the wall do you have your 1.6's? And what about the side walls?

How do the 12's compare to the Super MMG's for home theatre, I think the super MMG's might be better for HT, they got the bass panel.


I am swaying towards MG12's at the front and MMGW's on the sides. Can the MG12's be 3 foot from the back wall with heavy damping?

My 1.6's are a little more than two feet from the from wall (not ideal!) and a little more than one foot from the side wall (okay) and toe-ed in a bit. This is sub optimal yet still sounds better than anything else I've tried.

For you the advantage of the super MGM is placement options for the bass panel to optimize room interaction. But I'd recommend you budget for aftermarket stands to bring them off the ground and make them vertical.
Edited by nathan_h - 1/19/14 at 9:05am
post #3204 of 3520
Quote:
Originally Posted by nathan_h View Post

My 1.6's are a little more than two feet from the from wall (not ideal!) and a little more than one foot from the side wall (okay) and toe-ed in a bit. This is sub optimal yet still sounds better than anything else I've tried.
Ditto. I've tried mine farther out and the imaging is a bit better and the bass a bit smoother but I also have to deal with the WAF so two feet out is the best I can do. I understand wall treatments would also help but again the WAF comes into play... frown.gif
post #3205 of 3520
Quote:
Originally Posted by j2037 View Post

I love the idea of wall mounting the fronts as well as the surrounds, BUT, I am a bit worried about the lack of impact with the maggies after reading this review, I like my action flicks.

http://www.avguide.com/review/magnepan-mc1-home-theater-speaker-system

Quote:

"Though the MC1s supposedly reach down to 80 Hz, they didn’t have nearly enough upper bass presence in this room. Lacking upper bass warmth, center channel information often sounded shrill and thin (though better with the MC1s mounted near the wall and angled inward). Charlton Heston’s voice at the beginning of Armageddon sounded unnatural. Quiet scenes from any source had breathtaking clarity, but volume levels had to be kept down to prevent the MC1s’ thin sound from becoming irritating. Full mid-to-upper bass is essential for playing movies at high levels without listener fatigue, and in this respect the Mirage system trounced the Maggies, emphasizing the MC1s’ need for more mid-to-upper bass."

He was using a 350Wpc Adcom multichannel amplifier.


Any opinions from people who use MC1's up front on there ability to produce impact on action scenes?

I looked at the review, and he had them out from the wall, mounted on stands! These are wall-mounted models -- they're tuned on the assumption that the rear wave will be blocked on the side where they're attached to the wall. The wall effectively doubles the width of the baffle. If you move them out from the wall, you'll get dipole cancellation in the midbass, so of course they'll sound thin. (Conversely, the floor standing modles will sound boomy if you put them against a sidewall.)

Judging by this response curve, I agree that it's better to cross these over at 100 rather than 80 Hz:

http://www.soundandvision.com/content/magnepan-magneplanar-mgmc1-speaker-system-ht-labs-measures

Then Audyssey should be able to fine tune the response.

Also, check out the DWM woofers. They'd allow you to cross your sub at 40 Hz, maintaining planar clarity in the upper and midbass. You could also run them higher up, filling in the midbass.
post #3206 of 3520
Quote:
Originally Posted by j2037 View Post

How far from the wall do you have your 1.6's? And what about the side walls?

How do the 12's compare to the Super MMG's for home theatre, I think the super MMG's might be better for HT, they got the bass panel.


I am swaying towards MG12's at the front and MMGW's on the sides. Can the MG12's be 3 foot from the back wall with heavy damping?

You can run them 3' out from the wall without damping. I wouldn't go closer than that though some people do. It's subjective -- they develop more depth and clarity as you move them out and the bass will get better although with a sub that's less of a concern for you (and it also depends on the modes in your room).

Ideally, as I said, they'd be at least 5'. This corresponds to a 10 ms rear wave delay which is the point at which the brain starts interpreting reflections as ambiance rather than part of the direct sound.

The treatment that most seem to prefer behind their Maggies is diffusion, at the first reflection points -- the place where you'd see the tweeter in a mirror placed on the front wall, viewed from your listening seat. However, this can't be achieved in a home theater setup unless you use an AT screen (or raise the screen for listening to music). Absorption is recommended if you have to place them really close to the wall though again, you aren't going to be able to hit the first reflection points if you have a sizeable screen.

I agree too with Nathan's suggestion to raise them up vertically with aftermarket stands. If you look at the picures of my MMG's, you'll see that I did that with mine, using homebrew stands that I never got around to completing (they were supposed to have a panel in front to extent the speaker to the floor). This will improve imaging. Also, if you raise them so that the center of the speaker is at ear level, the sound will seem to be coming from the right height. Raising them will cost you some bass response, which can be filled in with the sub.
post #3207 of 3520
if you get 90% of the MG12 with the MMG, I think to downgrade to the MMG and go for a smaller room. How would a phantom centre (one seat centre) go with the MMG's? Stick to a 5.1 system and use the Rotel 1565 for the MMG's aswell as the MMGW's. 200w into 4ohm should be alright for the MMG's?
post #3208 of 3520
Who is using NON-Acoustic projector screens for there Maggies? Can you tell me about your experiences with either?
post #3209 of 3520
Quote:
Originally Posted by j2037 View Post

Who is using NON-Acoustic projector screens for there Maggies? Can you tell me about your experiences with either?

Works fine. What is your concern?
post #3210 of 3520
Quote:
Originally Posted by nathan_h View Post

Works fine. What is your concern?

Because the maggies are dipole, the reflections bounce off the back wall and a normal non-acoustic screen blocks the sound path. What you think about this?
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