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Xbox 360 crushing blacks in games but not DVD... - Page 2

post #31 of 211
11/23/08 at 1:51pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by DaGamePimp View Post

However ... if you use VGA then Expanded does map the levels correctly when you have a display that does 0-255 via the VGA connection , I have tested this on several different displays (Projector/HDtv/PC monitor) .

- Jason

Sure, but I bet level 16 is still black in the test pattern's i've posted.
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post #32 of 211
11/23/08 at 2:02pm
I also have a Microsoft VGA cable. Thanks for giving me another dilemma. LOL. Should I just stick with HDMI or should I swap for the VGA? I would think HDMI but again I'm not an expert.
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post #33 of 211
11/23/08 at 2:55pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by cybersoga View Post

Sure, but I bet level 16 is still black in the test pattern's i've posted.

Do not assume that any/every test pattern you find on the net will be accurate (I'm not saying that pattern is bad as I have not looked at it) . I have tested the 360 via VGA and it does indeed map 0-255 properly , it is not simply expanding 16-235 (I verified it by using the same Colorfacts test patterns on the 360 as I use on the htpc and the calibration matches that of the PC) . I have not been able to test HDMI as of yet .

- Jason
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post #34 of 211
11/23/08 at 3:02pm
It would be ideal if there were a definitive answer. I'm sticking with HDMI for the moment. I went with what cybersoga suggested.
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post #35 of 211
11/23/08 at 3:33pm
If you don't mind. Can you post up a couple of those test patterns? I would like to run the test again with those patterns you post up if you can.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DaGamePimp View Post

Do not assume that any/every test pattern you find on the net will be accurate (I'm not saying that pattern is bad as I have not looked at it) . I have tested the 360 via VGA and it does indeed map 0-255 properly , it is not simply expanding 16-235 (I verified it by using the same Colorfacts test patterns on the 360 as I use on the htpc and the calibration matches that of the PC) . I have not been able to test HDMI as of yet .

- Jason
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post #36 of 211
11/23/08 at 3:45pm
cybersoga ,

I just checked the 0-255 level pattern that you linked and I do indeed get distinct 0/8/16 levels when using VGA .


KoRn ,

Do a google search for the free Colorfacts test patterns .

- Jason
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post #37 of 211
11/23/08 at 5:58pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by DaGamePimp View Post

cybersoga ,

I just checked the 0-255 level pattern that you linked and I do indeed get distinct 0/8/16 levels when using VGA .


KoRn ,

Do a google search for the free Colorfacts test patterns .

- Jason

I verified this today as well. The 360 does correctly map 0-255 with 0 being black on vga. However HDMI is not mapping 0-255 correctly. It is simply expanding 16-235, and not even doing that correctly.
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post #38 of 211
11/23/08 at 6:12pm
So what should I use for the best picture quality? I have both HDMI and VGA cables.
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post #39 of 211
11/23/08 at 6:37pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by KillTheApex View Post

So what should I use for the best picture quality? I have both HDMI and VGA cables.

HDMI with refrence levels standard is still in my opinion visually superior to vga.
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post #40 of 211
11/23/08 at 8:03pm
Terrible. I thought all this time, I was getting the best picture possible with the settings. I guess MS needs to fix this. Hope fully it will be fixed in the next update.

Quote:
Originally Posted by PARASITE View Post

I verified this today as well. The 360 does correctly map 0-255 with 0 being black on vga. However HDMI is not mapping 0-255 correctly. It is simply expanding 16-235, and not even doing that correctly.
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post #41 of 211
11/23/08 at 11:39pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by KoRn View Post

Terrible. I thought all this time, I was getting the best picture possible with the settings. I guess MS needs to fix this. Hope fully it will be fixed in the next update.

I'm not sure there's anything they can do, with analogue they can go outside the 255 levels, but with digital they cant.
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post #42 of 211
11/23/08 at 11:42pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by DaGamePimp View Post

cybersoga ,

I just checked the 0-255 level pattern that you linked and I do indeed get distinct 0/8/16 levels when using VGA .


KoRn ,

Do a google search for the free Colorfacts test patterns .

- Jason

With Expanded? that is different from HDMI. If you can see 8 in the test pattern does Dead Space not look too bright, washed out?
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post #43 of 211
11/23/08 at 11:44pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by KillTheApex View Post

It would be ideal if there were a definitive answer. I'm sticking with HDMI for the moment. I went with what cybersoga suggested.

I've only have HDMI, I don't see the need for anything else! And there is nothing wrong with the test patterns I posted, check them in photoshop if you like!
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post #44 of 211
11/24/08 at 7:50am
Quote:
Originally Posted by cybersoga View Post

With Expanded? that is different from HDMI. If you can see 8 in the test pattern does Dead Space not look too bright, washed out?

Yes cybersoga, that is what I discovered yesterday as well.
With VGA, it will pass 0-255 correctly but like you said its because vga isnt digital. I'm going to test this out on PS3 today since I dont have to work. If the PS3 passes it correctly that means. The 360 isnt mapping the levels correctly and can be fixed with a firmware update, or this is one advantage the PS3 may have being a HDMI 1.3 device.
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post #45 of 211
11/24/08 at 8:53am
Well, setting my tv up like cybersoga suggested I played Dead Space. While it is obviously brighter than it was I'm not certain it is a bad thing. I'm not certain what the developers intended you to see. There are dark areas where you need the light to see what is there but it is nowhere near as dark as it was. I used to need the flashlight the majority of the time. It made it scarier because you couldn't see anything but, as I said, I'm not certain that is what they were going for. I still get dark areas but I can actually see all of the architecture and artwork that went into making this game and the Ishimura feel lifelike. I can see the unitology script in places I didn't see it before.

By the way, is 0-255 color space not better than 16-235 being that it is a wider spectrum?
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post #46 of 211
11/24/08 at 9:24am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by KillTheApex View Post

By the way, is 0-255 color space not better than 16-235 being that it is a wider spectrum?

It is for native PC graphics, but it's not when its produced by expanding 16-235 to 0-255 like the xbox seems to do when RGB+Expanded is used with HDMI.
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post #47 of 211
11/24/08 at 9:27am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by KillTheApex View Post

Well, setting my tv up like cybersoga suggested I played Dead Space. While it is obviously brighter than it was I'm not certain it is a bad thing. I'm not certain what the developers intended you to see. There are dark areas where you need the light to see what is there but it is nowhere near as dark as it was. I used to need the flashlight the majority of the time. It made it scarier because you couldn't see anything but, as I said, I'm not certain that is what they were going for. I still get dark areas but I can actually see all of the architecture and artwork that went into making this game and the Ishimura feel lifelike. I can see the unitology script in places I didn't see it before.

Is the brightness slider in the game itself in the middle? Can you just see the logo against the black background?
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post #48 of 211
11/24/08 at 9:35am
I now have a headache...
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post #49 of 211
11/24/08 at 9:44am
Quote:
Originally Posted by cybersoga View Post

Is the brightness slider in the game itself in the middle? Can you just see the logo against the black background?

The slider I have left untouched. I did slide it to where the logo was barely visible before but the game got super dark. If I knew the intentions of the developers I would maybe change it. I can't imagine they put so much work into the game only to hide it in shadow and darkness. I could be wrong though. Think I should adjust the in-game brightness?
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post #50 of 211
11/24/08 at 9:48am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KillTheApex View Post

The slider I have left untouched. I did slide it to where the logo was barely visible before but the game got super dark. If I knew the intentions of the developers I would maybe change it. I can't imagine they put so much work into the game only to hide it in shadow and darkness. I could be wrong though. Think I should adjust the in-game brightness?

I left mine in the middle, theres plenty of dark corners but I don't think it's meant to be doom 3!
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post #51 of 211
11/24/08 at 10:32am
Quote:
Originally Posted by cybersoga View Post

With Expanded? that is different from HDMI. If you can see 8 in the test pattern does Dead Space not look too bright, washed out?

Dead Space looks perfect to me but again this is using VGA and many here are using HDMI . If you are not calibrated properly then there are areas in Dead Space where you will see almost nothing as multiple shades of black are crushed and I am just about 100% certain that was not the dev's intent . With my expanded (VGA) calibration the lighting is very intense and feels just right for the atmosphere of the game (I get the sense that I am seeing things as I am meant to see them and it is very immersive) .

- Jason
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post #52 of 211
11/24/08 at 11:01am
Maybe I'll try out my VGA cable when I get home. I feel like the game was scarier when my settings were different but it was probably because the black was being crushed and everything was so dark. You couldn't see anything without a light and it was very tense. I agree, they want you to not see things but certainly they want you to see their work they put in.

I think I'm getting a great picture on HDMI now that I have adjusted according to cybersoga. Hopefully they can fix this issue with an update.
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post #53 of 211
11/24/08 at 11:15am
Quote:
Originally Posted by DaGamePimp View Post

Dead Space looks perfect to me but again this is using VGA and many here are using HDMI . If you are not calibrated properly then there are areas in Dead Space where you will see almost nothing as multiple shades of black are crushed and I am just about 100% certain that was not the dev's intent . With my expanded (VGA) calibration the lighting is very intense and feels just right for the atmosphere of the game (I get the sense that I am seeing things as I am meant to see them and it is very immersive) .

- Jason

DGP, I think people are missing the bolded part. This IMO is key. Yes games are not developed with D6500k in mind, but having your display calibrated to D6500k goes a long way.

BTW I moved my 20GB to the bedroom & have it connected via VGA on an LCD. Black Levels set to EXPANDED running D6500k. & like it's been posted VGA is passing 0-255 correctly
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post #54 of 211
11/24/08 at 11:48am
This has been really helpful, thanks for putting all the time into testing. Just to clarify the best option for HDMI-HDTV-360 users is to go with standard reference levels and auto or source?
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post #55 of 211
11/24/08 at 11:51am
Quote:
Originally Posted by KoRn View Post

Yeah I dunno man. Just reporting what I saw. Thought it was weird that my pc monitor and tv showed the exact same thing. I even had them side by side. So, from an optimal stand point with the 360. Since yall figured it out. Is this how it should look now?

Samsung lcd
hdmi black level (with in the tv settings) Low
hdmi black level (with in the 360) Standard
hdmi color space (with in the 360) Auto

Obviously I could not use optimal resolution any more with these settings because then we are back to pc levels. I will just have to take the PQ hit and use 720p.

No.

On your LCD, put HDMI Black Level to NORMAL, Black Adjust to OFF.

You can tweak the brightness from there. HDMI Low lowers black levels so much that it will crush your blacks, unless your brightness is in the upper ranges. Normal will alow brightness to be at around the middle to better calibrate your TV.

Usually the brightness setting on Samsung LCD's will be around 46-53 with HDMI Normal, while HDMI Low, your brightness setting has to be around the mid 60's to not crush blacks.

Trust me, I know because I've owned 3 Samsung LCD's.

Here's a tip. Find a black wallpaper that you can display on your 360 or ps3. Raising the brightness up to gray black levels. Put the TV in 4:3 mode. Proceed to lower the brightness until the Black image on screen MATCHES the black bars of 4:3. THAT is your brightness sweet spot. Any lower is crushing blacks, and any higher is making blacks gray.

The 4:3 bars on a Samsung LCD is the BLACKEST blacks you can get on the TV with whatever backlight setting you have. Blacks will never go blacker.
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post #56 of 211
11/24/08 at 11:52am
Ok guys here is where it gets interesting.
I tried the test pattern on PS3 and to my suprised it passed with flying colors. But the amazing part is this. The pattern was passing the test using both limited and full range rgb. That doesnt make any sense whatsoever. I guess the conclusion I have come to is this. The xbox does not pass pc colors correctly unless you are using a vga cable and expanded. The PS3 will pass the pattern using both limited and full range with zero visual difference.
This could be why people tend to think ps3 games are washed out. The ps3 is expanding 16-235 to cover the 0-255 color space, which will have a huge impact on black levels, contrast, gamma ect.. Neither company is doing full range correctly on hdmi, and PS3 is not even doing limited range correctly. When will they get this figured out, its not rocket science?
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post #57 of 211
11/24/08 at 12:25pm
Thread Starter 
Here is dead space on ps3 compared with xbox 360, the levels look about the same to me, and incidentally this is how it looks on my TV.

http://www.eurogamer.net/gallery.php...icle_id=282195

Here is fallout 3, the xbox 360 version has serious black crush

http://www.eurogamer.net/gallery.php...icle_id=285447
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post #58 of 211
11/24/08 at 12:58pm
Normal is for PC levels is it not? Maybe since your mixing up signals. That is why you are getting the results you are. Not trying to sound cocky or any thing. Just an observation.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shin CZ View Post

No.

On your LCD, put HDMI Black Level to NORMAL, Black Adjust to OFF.

You can tweak the brightness from there. HDMI Low lowers black levels so much that it will crush your blacks, unless your brightness is in the upper ranges. Normal will alow brightness to be at around the middle to better calibrate your TV.

Usually the brightness setting on Samsung LCD's will be around 46-53 with HDMI Normal, while HDMI Low, your brightness setting has to be around the mid 60's to not crush blacks.

Trust me, I know because I've owned 3 Samsung LCD's.

Here's a tip. Find a black wallpaper that you can display on your 360 or ps3. Raising the brightness up to gray black levels. Put the TV in 4:3 mode. Proceed to lower the brightness until the Black image on screen MATCHES the black bars of 4:3. THAT is your brightness sweet spot. Any lower is crushing blacks, and any higher is making blacks gray.

The 4:3 bars on a Samsung LCD is the BLACKEST blacks you can get on the TV with whatever backlight setting you have. Blacks will never go blacker.
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post #59 of 211
11/24/08 at 1:01pm
Here's what I have found in regards to PROPERLY calibrating black levels on my 67" with this test pattern..


TV: (these settings work on BOTH the 360 and ps3)
Brightness at 44. This is THE sweet spot for brightness.
Black Adjust: Off (any other options will crush blacks)
HDMI Black Level: Normal (Low will crush blacks to hell)

360 via HDMI:

360 Reference Level: Expanded. It is the ONLY option that will display full 0-255 range. Intermediate and Standard makes blacks gray.

Ps3: RGB Range: Full and Super-White On.

Test it out. Put that test image up on the TV and put the TV in 4:3 mode (the black bars are the blackest blacks you can get, so match the 0 range to the black bars, no more no less.).

Changing the HDMI levels and Black adjust will compromise the optimal brightness, which is why you should have them off. This is pertaining to Samsung TV's.
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post #60 of 211
11/24/08 at 1:04pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by KoRn View Post

Normal is for PC levels is it not? Maybe since your mixing up signals. That is why you are getting the results you are. Not trying to sound cocky or any thing. Just an observation.

I put the test image as my wallpaper on my 360, and HDMI Low is crushing all the lower ranges. HDMI Normal is properly displaying ALL the ranges on my 360. The 0 black is the same black as my black bars in 4:3 mode.

I don't know how DVD's function on the 360 in regards to my calibrations, but I watch DVD's on my ps3 anyway.
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