'Whale Wars' on Animal Planet HD - Page 38

Oh, I know. I'm just saying that at present the idea of extending human rights to animals and plants is more sci-fi than it is reality. But, on a hopeful note, it seems as our society becomes richer we broaden the protections that used to be reserved to only the rich or powerful. So hopefully, at some point, (and before whales are extinct), we'll be rich enough and have the tech to treat everything with respect.

I find your post is a contradiction when you continuously side with the Japanese yet you enjoy seeing whales. Makes no sense, sorry.

There's no contradiction. I love whales and wouldn't shed a tear if whale hunting completely ceased.

But I'll side with any country operating legally versus any group of terrorists threatening human lives.

I am not siding with the Japanese. If I was making the rules, I'm pretty sure I'd do away with most (if not all) whaling.

My main problems with Whale Wars and the Sea Sheppards is that in my opinion they are setting back their own cause. They have made this into an issue of pride with the Japanese who can't back down without losing face.

I think whaling will probably be severely restricted at some point in the future. I think the SS have extended that date.

I think the SS do not save any whales (if you look at the kill numbers, they are all about the same every year, indicating to me that the Japanese are killing as many as they want despite the SS.)

The only effect I see from the SS is hardening the whaler's positions and thus making it harder to change their minds.

Every year the SS tack onto whaling, by their ineffective and polarizing campaign, results in hundreds if not thousands of more dead whales.

Exactly. The SS use deception, exaggeration, and piracy, to stop what is, in reality, a legal activity. The SS are the criminals, that Japanese are lawful.

That is not to say the Japanese are moral (morality is not defined by what is lawful.)

Even if that group of terrorist is the only thing that stands between further existence and extinction. Because nothing was working up to this point so far unless you have some other ideas.

You asked for it.... Next season, "Whale Wars: North Sea". Ironic that a number of the crew seem to be from that region too.

By the way, from the SS website, they say this:
They say this is what allows them to do what they do. Will be interesting to see how "regulations" passed by a committee then fall under UN rules.

Really , whaling has been going on for hundreds of years so you think the Japanese will stop just because you ask them to. Lets face it, they will only stop when their gone so the SS'ers have no choice to do anything else in an effort to starve off the inevitable. I totally disagree they have set back their cause. in fact it is the total opposite.

LOL, I wouldn't be surprised. Whales Wars is probably Animal Planets #1 show. Plus the SS get tons of donations from it. It would be a natural spin off.

From this image, it looks like most of the North Sea is under the control of the bordering countries. I wonder if the Norwegians are whaling in their own waters, under protection of their coast guard. I bet the SS are afraid of the consequences.

Yeap, same here... If I'm flipping channels and see a show on Discovery about whales, I'm likely to watch it (or record it and watch with the kids later). When I've been in FL or VA and see dolphins, it's a very "cool" moment.

I have to admit, I don't recall my "stance" or feelings when we first started watching Whale Wars. What I do recall is I quickly formed an unfavorable opinion of the Sea Shepherds. It had more to do with their arrogance and righteousness though as well as their way of "exaggerating" things. Pay attention to Paul Watson when he talks to a "reporter" on the phone and how extreme he slants things (or outright lies).

Wow, the past two pages of discussion were more entertaining than last week's episode. Talk about a filler episode.

What I think is funny is how they take the quota number allowed (let's say 800) and when the whalers only get 400, claim to have made an impact. Who says the whalers had any intention of getting all 800 anyway ? If the Japanese want 800, they'll just have the quota increased to 1600 !!

Many nations that have whaled for hundreds of years have already stopped. The Japanese were trending that way already, as evidenced by their joining the IWC in the first place, imposing a quota that cut down on the number of whales, by limiting whaling to species that were endangered (as they judge admittedly.) From the SS own mouths, they say that whaling is being subsidized by the government and isn't profitable on its own (indicating that the Japanese people aren't hardcore for whales.)

I think that with some education of the Japanese public, eventually the public indifference to whaling could have been turned into opposition (at least to the subsidies... letting the whaling come under market forces and probably ending due to lack of profit). Couple internal domestic pressure with some international diplomatic pressure, and I'm sure they would have ended whaling within a couple of decades if not sooner.

In a democracy if you change the minds of the poeple, you then change the laws and behavior of the nation.

Instead the SS have made this a pissing match.

Have no doubt, Whale Wars and SS have a very different effect on the indifferent (both in Japan in the US) than the fundamentalists. Fundamentalist watch Whale Wars and become even more motivated (giving money and time).

Everyone else watches it and thinks that those people are crazy and move from indifference to opposition to the SS.

I wouldn't be surprised if for every anti-whaling convert the SS make there are 10 anti-SS converts made, especially among the Japanese. Thus, the whalers start getting more domestic support and whaling continues. It makes the job of reasonable people harder.

Yeah, that is one of the SS exaggerations. The Japanese never catch their full quota. It is regularly 50-60% of it. The quota is a meaningless standard. Looking at actual kills the SS haven't made any dents.

This is a perfect example of my point. You were probably indifferent to whaling prior to Whale Wars (since you can't recall, it wasn't a very strong position either way.) After Whale Wars you associated negative feelings with anti-whalers.

My experience mirrors yours.

This is principally why I believe the SS have actually caused more whale deaths. Their self-righteousness, arrogance, and bulling, turn off reasonable people. It causes sympathizing with the whalers. It pushes back the day whaling will end... meaning more whales will die.

This whole post is a bunch of baloney. All your doing is interjecting your personal opinion and nothing more. You state zero facts with speculation, yet think people here are gullible enough to believe in it. Sorry, that is not going to work around here.

Where are the facts to go along with everything you say?

Many ex-whaling nations have stopped. That is a fact. The Japanese were trending towards stopping whaling. I gave evidences of that in my first paragraph.

After the 1st paragraph I start giving my opinion (Hint, the phrase "I think" indicates opinion.)

This is a discussion of opinion more than fact. You know most things in life are opinion. Is X better than Y? That is a question that more often than not is a matter of opinion rather than fact.

You call my opinion baloney, ignore my arguments and evidences, yet you have presented no "facts" of your own.

In my previous post I have stated evidence that back up my position (or my informed opinion). For clarifications purposes, I summarize some of it below:

[Fact] Each year whaling continues causes the deaths of a certain number of whales

[Argument/Opinion] The SS are ineffectual [Evidence] The kills rates remain the same.

[Argument/Opinion] The SS are polarizing. [Evidence] They polarized me. They have polarized other members of this thread. They have polarized you.

[Argument/Opinion] The general effect of the SS's polarization is to cause more people to be Anti-SS and sympathize with the whalers. [Evidence] That was the effect on me, all of my personal acquaintances, and from reviewing the tone of the posts on this thread, the majority of the posters of this thread.

[Conclusion] Therefore, since the principle effect of the SS is generating sympathy for whalers, I conclude, that they prolong whaling.

[Corollary] The SS cause more whale deaths by their presence than if they never existed.

My opinion is open to modification. But to do so you will have to present arguments and evidences of your own. Calling my opinion baloney without any reasonable debate serves as evidence to strengthen my [Argument/Opinion] The SS are in self-righteousness, arrogant, unreasonable bullies. [Evidence] Nearly every interaction I've had with a SS member or supporter consists of irrational name calling, especially when met with rational challenges to their beliefs. (Which has led to [Argument/Opinion] The SS resemble a religion or cult. [Evidence] see Whale Wars.)

Why? Do you feel I have mislead you with something? If so please post it.

Just the most recent occurence:

Why don't you come clean and state your agenda. Are you affiliated with the whaling industry? Are you Japanese? Did you have a prior beef with the Sea Shepherd? I'm calling you out. I'm nothing more than an average citizen who would like to see whales protected, how bout you? I know when I smell a rat.

Easy, when the amount of donations rises it coincides with the amount of support.

LOL, I just gave you a long clear list of why I think the way I do.

If you want to change my mind, you should attack those statements or present something I have missed. Shooting out wild accusations is not effective.

I have no contact with the whaling industry. I am not Japanese. I never heard of the Sea Shepherds prior to Whale Wars. In fact, it was a total fluke that I even started watching Whale Wars.

I think you emphasize my point. Those who already were anti-whaling love the SS. (That is why they get more donations... they have played to their base.)

I was an average citizen who never really thought about whaling at all. I think I could have easily have been persuaded to vote for anti-whaling candidates or laws given some rational arguments.

But after Whale Wars, I am much more sympathetic with the Japanese despite my natural leanings. They are really being bullied by unreasonable ideologues.

Despite my opinion of the SS I think that I'd still rather there be no whaling.

Yes, but it doesn't tell you anything about how many people they've turned off. If you get 10 more people to support you, but 100 more people go against you, have you really accomplished what you wanted?

Many people that watch Whale Wars think differently. What makes you think your opinion forms a consensus? It doesn't. Because you relate to the majority of opinion here in this thread is laughable. If you want hard numbers, go to the Animal Planet web page which I'm sure is representative of the most casual viewers of that channel and click on who is to blame for the Ady Gil collision. Last time I checked it was 67% to 33 % blaming the Japaneses which shows who is really getting the support and throws your whole opinion out the window about who has received the more favorable position since Whale wars started. So your claims are baseless and honestly so is your credibility in my book.

See post above!

People going to AnimalPlanet.com are not a representative sample of people who watch the show. I'd bet that a vast majority of the show's viewers have never gone to AnimalPlanet.com.

You have got to be kidding me. I bet the numbers would be reversed in that poll on a pro-whaling website (if one existed). I have never been to animalplanet.com and I had never watch AP until Whale Wars. I'm 100% on the side of the Japanese and 100% anti-SS. That does not mean I'm pro-whaling (honestly, I could care less about whaling, doesn’t bother me one way or the other) but, I think the SS tactics are childish, immature and downright stupid. They have little to no effect on the number of whales the Japanese kill so what is the point. I guess if the point is to raise more money and just cause media headlines and outrage, then they have succeeded. If the point is to stop the killing of whales, then they have failed miserably by the fact that whales are killed right in front of them.

You say that having more people support them on animalplanet.com proves that they are succeeding yet, say that having more people here at avs that are anti-ss proves nothing. If you are going to use one site’s biased numbers then you must use all biased site’s numbers. Ignoring the ones you do not agree with dose nothing to prove your point.


It does not coincide with how successful one’s campaign is or is not. Like I said, if the goal is to stop the killing of whales then they have failed, no matter how much support they may or may not have.

I can't believe how naive Lodef is to actually think the Animal Planet website actually represents unbiased consensus on the matter. :lol: They are fans of the animals...why would you even think anybody would dare side against whales there?!

AVS "consensus" is definitely more accurate out of pure circumstance that the interests that bring us here together (AV) makes us a typically disinterested party from the matter of whaling vs. anti-whaling. There will be some who have no problem with it, others that don't like it, and still others that don't care either way. That leaves the viewing and criticism to be less emotionally charged where it comes to judging character and integrity demonstrated by various participants in the footage. Overall, they don't really pass the sniff test, regardless of how you feel about the Jpn and what they do on the high seas.

I have no doubt that many people think differently that watch Whale Wars.

But I think that in a scientific study across a representative sample of US citizens would show more people sympathize with the whalers after watching Whale Wars than prior. I also suspect that you would find stronger sentiments on both sides. (Someone who was mildly anti-whaling will be strongly anti-whaling... someone who was mildly pro-whaling would be strongly pro-whaling.) I also suspect that most people who were neutral would be turned off by the SS.

I suspect that the same study using a Japanese sample will show an even stronger Anti-SS sentiment.

Now of course, I haven't done a scientific study. If you are willing to pay for one, I'd be interested in the results. I could be wrong. There is no way to tell without testing the hypothesis.

However, using Animal Planet (or any online poll) is not strong evidence for your argument. Firstly, people that go to animalplanet.com are likely self selected pro-animals anti-whalers. Additionally, any online poll is so open to manipulation that it says more about the visitors of the website than it does about the public. A strongly anti-whaling poll on animalplanet.com indicates that most of its visitors are anti-whaling, supporting my self selection hypothesis. It says nothing at all about the general public.

Since you asked, I believe my view is more consistent with the general public consensus because:

1) at avsforums - a website that has nothing to do with animal rights and thus probably includes a fairer representative of the public than animalplanet.com seems to agree with me.

2) at reddit.com - a website that has nothing to do with animal rights and thus probably includes a fairer representative of the public than animalplanet.com seems to agree with me.

3) my gaming clan - that has nothing to do with animal rights and thus probably includes a fairer representative of the public than animalplanet.com seems to agree with me.

Like I said, this isn't a scientific sampling. There may be biases involved in these 3 that I am not aware of. If so, please point them out.

But seeing as I have set forth my reasoning pretty clearly, and instead of addressing the merits of those points or setting forth your own points, you resort to changing the subject, name calling and attacking my credibility with unfounded claims. I doubt you will be able to rationally respond.