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Distribute HD to multiple rooms - Page 2

post #31 of 103
1/9/09 at 12:40pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kiril View Post

I happen to have 2000 feet of RG6 which I was planning on using for component distribution, but I would hate to pull all that cable and not get 1080P if the signal supports it.

If you are talking about normal RG-6 cable (that includes quad shield RG-6) is simply NOT designed for component distribution. While it may work for some people, you are really increasing the odds of failure if you use this type of coaxial cable.

I initially tried to distribute composite (not even component) video in my house using the Coleman RG-6 cable that I had already run. Coleman is a decent name brand cable and I have used good compression fittings on all my connections. I could not distribute the signal even 20' to my closet TV. The picture flickered and ghosted to the point that it wasn't watchable.

Everyone on the forums tried to tell me it was my terminations (this was about 1 1/2 years ago). But there were a few out there that said it was due to the fact I was using regular RG-6 cable and not a precision coaxial cable. I followed their advice and bought the precision coaxial cable (a Coleman mini-coax because it was cheaper than the precision RG-6 size) and I get perfect signals now - either composite or component to all TV locations including some that have cable runs approaching 60'.

So please, take it from someone that has first hand experience - regular RG-6 cable is not designed for component (or even composite) video signals and may result in complete failure even at short distances. Don't try to save a couple hundred dollars and end up not getting the results you want. You do get what you paid for in these situations.
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post #32 of 103
1/9/09 at 5:02pm
Noob here, and now even more confused. I thought the point pulling several RG6 mini cables for each HDTV location was to distribute component video over them? If not, then what are all the RG6 cables used for at the HDTV location?

Nevermind, I just re-read and you mentioned precision mini cables.
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post #33 of 103
1/9/09 at 5:32pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by sic0048 View Post

If you are talking about normal RG-6 cable (that includes quad shield RG-6) is simply NOT designed for component distribution. While it may work for some people, you are really increasing the odds of failure if you use this type of coaxial cable.

I initially tried to distribute composite (not even component) video in my house using the Coleman RG-6 cable that I had already run. Coleman is a decent name brand cable and I have used good compression fittings on all my connections. I could not distribute the signal even 20' to my closet TV. The picture flickered and ghosted to the point that it wasn't watchable.

Everyone on the forums tried to tell me it was my terminations (this was about 1 1/2 years ago). But there were a few out there that said it was due to the fact I was using regular RG-6 cable and not a precision coaxial cable. I followed their advice and bought the precision coaxial cable (a Coleman mini-coax because it was cheaper than the precision RG-6 size) and I get perfect signals now - either composite or component to all TV locations including some that have cable runs approaching 60'.

So please, take it from someone that has first hand experience - regular RG-6 cable is not designed for component (or even composite) video signals and may result in complete failure even at short distances. Don't try to save a couple hundred dollars and end up not getting the results you want. You do get what you paid for in these situations.

That's news to us who have used normal RG6 to send baseband video 1000's of feet inside buildings. This is Beldens shield data. http://www.belden.com/pdfs/Techbull/...on%20Guide.pdf
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post #34 of 103
1/10/09 at 5:37am
Quote:
Originally Posted by mntmst View Post

That's news to us who have used normal RG6 to send baseband video 1000's of feet inside buildings. This is Beldens shield data. http://www.belden.com/pdfs/Techbull/...on%20Guide.pdf

The center conductor construction has alot to do with it, not just the shielding. Solid copper for baseband. Copper clad steel for RF. I'd be interested to know your application where you are sending High Definition baseband video throughout an entire building. Not CCTV baseband, but HD.
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post #35 of 103
1/10/09 at 9:33am
Quote:
Originally Posted by robertmee View Post

The center conductor construction has alot to do with it, not just the shielding. Solid copper for baseband. Copper clad steel for RF. I'd be interested to know your application where you are sending High Definition baseband video throughout an entire building. Not CCTV baseband, but HD.

I find it's really the crappy video amps designed into most consumer gear that's the problem. They can't handle the loading of larger/longer cables. When the video has been buffered by even a old amp http://www.extron.com/product/product.aspx?id=ada2300hv I can run HD bandwidth video over any rg6 cable. But we did spec solid copper cables for our video system.

It's at a large semiconductor company (not Intel) using Extron matrix switchers and line amps to remote RGB video from process inspection machines. http://www.extron.com/product/prodtype03.aspx

Example.
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post #36 of 103
1/10/09 at 12:30pm
That's cool! I'm a big fan of Extron gear. Use an old Matrix 100 in my home distribution. If you have any old 100's or 200's or Xpoints that you need to get rid of cheap, lemme know
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post #37 of 103
1/10/09 at 1:50pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by sic0048 View Post

If you are talking about normal RG-6 cable (that includes quad shield RG-6) is simply NOT designed for component distribution. While it may work for some people, you are really increasing the odds of failure if you use this type of coaxial cable.

Thanks for the feed back, even though I'm not sure I agree with you. I have transmitted over the air HD signal on RG59 with no problems, RG6 should be OK I would think.

In any event, I already have the cable and conduit space, and if I can get 1080P out of component, might as well try? Anyone know the status on getting 1080P on component?


On a related note, more wire distribution questions. I am at the point where I need to make some speaker wiring decisions which will not be in conduit. To detail the situation. I have a 7.1 setup in the TV/Living area which I would like to allow for equipment placement in two different locations. The first being the "TV wall", the other an equipment closet.

The second situation is in the master bed with a 5.1 system. I have a similar situation as the 7.1 system, difference being I would like to use 2 of the speakers for whole house audio distribution as well. This would mean two live sources as opposed to the 7.1 system where there would be only one live source.

So I guess what it comes down to, will I need to run a set of wires from each speaker to each source location, or is there someway to switch via IR or cat5 so I can reduce my wiring requirements?
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post #38 of 103
1/10/09 at 4:38pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by robertmee View Post

That's cool! I'm a big fan of Extron gear. Use an old Matrix 100 in my home distribution. If you have any old 100's or 200's or Xpoints that you need to get rid of cheap, lemme know

Lots of used goodies on ebay.
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post #39 of 103
1/11/09 at 6:31am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kiril View Post

Thanks for the feed back, even though I'm not sure I agree with you. I have transmitted over the air HD signal on RG59 with no problems, RG6 should be OK I would think.

OTA is RF and operates at a much different frequency than baseband component video. So, it is very different and the cable properties need to be adjusted accordingly.
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post #40 of 103
1/11/09 at 11:06am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kiril View Post

Thanks for the feed back, even though I'm not sure I agree with you. I have transmitted over the air HD signal on RG59 with no problems, RG6 should be OK I would think.

First, most RG-59 wire has been designed to distribute CCTV signals and have specs that are much closer to precision coaxial specs than regular RG-59 specs are.

Please keep in mind that mini coax, RG-59, and RG-6 simply refer to the SIZE of the cable. That honestly makes little difference. Each size comes in many different versions that are designed to distribute different signals. THAT's what is important.

You can get precision coaxial cable in any size. It's the fact that it has the solid copper core (which most RG-59 cables have and most RG-6 cables DON'T have) as well has the 95% tinned copper braiding that makes the most difference.

So don't pay attention to the size of the cable, pay attention to the specifications of the cable.
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post #41 of 103
1/11/09 at 6:40pm
Good points.

Don't forget that 'precision' just means that the cable purchased was tested and conforms to the stated specification. Non-precision cable is just checked sporadically (the cable you bought was not tested), but is usually pretty darn close to spec, if not dead on.

Please correct me if I'm wrong. It's one of the 'take-home' points I picked up from Stephen Lampen's Cable Installer's Handbook. Highly rec'd.
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post #42 of 103
1/11/09 at 8:01pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by sic0048 View Post

First, most RG-59 wire has been designed to distribute CCTV signals and have specs that are much closer to precision coaxial specs than regular RG-59 specs are.



Please keep in mind that mini coax, RG-59, and RG-6 simply refer to the SIZE of the cable. That honestly makes little difference. Each size comes in many different versions that are designed to distribute different signals. THAT's what is important.



You can get precision coaxial cable in any size. It's the fact that it has the solid copper core (which most RG-59 cables have and most RG-6 cables DON'T have) as well has the 95% tinned copper braiding that makes the most difference.



So don't pay attention to the size of the cable, pay attention to the specifications of the cable.

I am aware of the differences between cable designations, I am not a total ignorant noob.

I don't think we are on the same page here, probably my fault for not specifying the type of RG-6 I have, which is specifically made/rated for digital/HD signal transmission.

It is RG 6/U Quad Shield 75 ohm swept test to 3 GHz with a solid copper conductor. I believe it is General Cables Carol Brand version (395014) of Beldan 7916A, but I don't have the cable here to verify.

http://www.generalcable.com/NR/rdonl...oaxCblRG6U.pdf

Is it "precision" cable, no. Is it up to the task of distributing HD signals, I believe it is. I am more curious how far I can really push HDMI cable lengths before I see signal degradation, and if I can get 1080P out of component hook ups yet.

Also, any thoughts on speaker wiring?
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post #43 of 103
1/12/09 at 12:00am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Audiofn View Post

IMO pull 4 cat 6 runs to any tv location and you should be good to go no matter how you go (anal. or digital).

Why do you suggest 4 Cat 6 runs to each TV location?

I'm wiring my home now. I plan to run 1 Cat 6a UTP for LAN. I was thinking of running 2 additional Cat 6a UTP runs for future video. Shouldn't that be enough for when I do get around to dropping in a distribution system?
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post #44 of 103
1/12/09 at 6:11am
Quote:
Originally Posted by tmc2k View Post

Why do you suggest 4 Cat 6 runs to each TV location?

I'm wiring my home now. I plan to run 1 Cat 6a UTP for LAN. I was thinking of running 2 additional Cat 6a UTP runs for future video. Shouldn't that be enough for when I do get around to dropping in a distribution system?

Depends....Will your 2 catx distribution cover your IR distribution needs? Do you plan on ever controlling the TV serially? There was a recent thread arguing the merits of running upto SIX catx cables to each location. I thought that was excessive and argued such. I would probably run 4 (I like even numbers ) and feel good about covering all scenarios.
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post #45 of 103
1/12/09 at 3:13pm
I've never used any of these products, but they all only require 2 catx connections from the sender to the receiver.
Do you have any experience or feedback on products from Gefen?
http://www.gefen.com/kvm/dproduct.jsp?prod_id=4558

As for IR, they have another product that integrates the IR functions over the same catx runs.
http://www.gefen.com/kvm/dproduct.jsp?prod_id=4559

I could see using a product like the 4x4 HDMI over Catx Matrix/Switcher in the future:

I was originally thinking of just using RF remote solutions (Harmony 890) for managing the IR.
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post #46 of 103
1/12/09 at 7:40pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by tmc2k View Post

I've never used any of these products, but they all only require 2 catx connections from the sender to the receiver.
Do you have any experience or feedback on products from Gefen?
http://www.gefen.com/kvm/dproduct.jsp?prod_id=4558

As for IR, they have another product that integrates the IR functions over the same catx runs.
http://www.gefen.com/kvm/dproduct.jsp?prod_id=4559

I could see using a product like the 4x4 HDMI over Catx Matrix/Switcher in the future:

I was originally thinking of just using RF remote solutions (Harmony 890) for managing the IR.

Gefen makes very good baluns. I personally use CELabs RX/TX units (also over 2 catx) as they are a bit cheaper. I'm well aware that they send IR over the cables. Part of the reason why I recommend them and use them. However, there are still instances where more than 2 catx cables may be needed, such as serial control of the TV or perhaps using an audio balun to take local audio back to your distribution system.
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post #47 of 103
1/13/09 at 12:03am
Great!
Thanks for the feedback. I didn't think about the local audio and serial control. At least I know those trade-offs ahead of the project. My goals are pretty simple so I'll go with the 2 Cat6a UTP runs for future video.

You have been a big help as I think I understand most of this now. I'm sure there may be issues with each vendor so its nice to hear there is one you've have positive experience with.
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post #48 of 103
1/13/09 at 5:34am
Quote:
Originally Posted by tmc2k View Post

Great!
Thanks for the feedback. I didn't think about the local audio and serial control. At least I know those trade-offs ahead of the project. My goals are pretty simple so I'll go with the 2 Cat6a UTP runs for future video.

You have been a big help as I think I understand most of this now. I'm sure there may be issues with each vendor so its nice to hear there is one you've have positive experience with.

If you search here for CELabs, there's a pretty lengthy thread that reviews the units. Good Luck in your project.
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post #49 of 103
1/13/09 at 2:16pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kiril View Post

I am aware of the differences between cable designations, I am not a total ignorant noob.

I don't think we are on the same page here, probably my fault for not specifying the type of RG-6 I have, which is specifically made/rated for digital/HD signal transmission.

It is RG 6/U Quad Shield 75 ohm swept test to 3 GHz with a solid copper conductor. I believe it is General Cables Carol Brand version (395014) of Beldan 7916A, but I don't have the cable here to verify.

http://www.generalcable.com/NR/rdonl...oaxCblRG6U.pdf

Is it "precision" cable, no. Is it up to the task of distributing HD signals, I believe it is. I am more curious how far I can really push HDMI cable lengths before I see signal degradation, and if I can get 1080P out of component hook ups yet.

Also, any thoughts on speaker wiring?


Sorry - I didn't realize your RG-6 was better than the basic "builders grade" RG-6 that most people try to use because it is cheap.

Regarding speaker wire - personally I ran 14ga wire. I think it also happened to be Coleman brand. Even that is probably overkill and could have gotten away with a smaller gauge. But I like to over design things so I don't have to replace them.

Some will argue that you have to use 12ga, but unless you are running it hundreds of feet, I think 12ga is just a waste of money.
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post #50 of 103
1/13/09 at 8:04pm
I have a simple thing that works for distribution on HD 1080p signal and digital audio from my VIP622 Dish receiver to two rooms.

It consists of 3 Muxlab 500050 baluns with a T-joint in the CAT5 wiring that diverts the signal to the third location, and Jensen IR transmitters with remote eye to the sat receiver.

Only bad thing is that everything is simultaneous, but we don't watch much TV.

If you want wireless HD, get ready to shell out $750 for Sony's DMX-WL1.
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post #51 of 103
1/16/09 at 5:24am
Quote:
Originally Posted by sic0048 View Post

Regarding speaker wire - personally I ran 14ga wire. I think it also happened to be Coleman brand. Even that is probably overkill and could have gotten away with a smaller gauge. But I like to over design things so I don't have to replace them.

I agree, 14ga is probably what I will go with as none of my runs should be more than 100 feet. Regarding the powering speakers from two different locations, I assume I will need separate wire runs for each?
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post #52 of 103
2/4/09 at 8:10pm
What a great thread learning so much at my critical stage of running cat 5a/6
throught out my home, wish i would have bought it new. I plan of running 2 cat 5a 2 cat 6 in every room, i hope that covers everything.
Here's Question:
I trying to decide b/w the Avatrix and extron crosspoint. I believe i have a total of 12 to 13 inputs and 9 outputs. if i buy the avatrix-661 it only has 6 inputs will i need two for all of my inputs at the 2k each cost or is there a cheaper add on system? My inputs are: 1 dvr, 3 hd box, PS3, Xbox, DVD, Htpc & 4 Cable box, sling box. For outputs: 1 projecter 1 plasama and 6 lcd.

How will i control the xbox & ps3 oops forgot the wii (input) when i'm not infront of the systems. Will it work with ir in the avatrix?


I wanted to buy the avatrix this week but i can wait to do more research and get the right system.

Quote:
Originally Posted by robertmee View Post

As for your digital question, I personally don't distribute digital as I have just the one 7.1 zone in the HT, .

Hey rob my theater room is only 7.1 does speaker connect striaght to the receiver? My living room has a 5.1 setup. What to do with that?
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post #53 of 103
2/5/09 at 4:16pm
Well after doing some more research i think i will spend the 2k for avatrix. Just beause of things Robertmee and others states. Also for the ease of the ir system. Thanks for all the old posts.
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post #54 of 103
2/5/09 at 4:48pm
The Avatrix AVX-562 is $2,799 plus you need 6 wall plates at $200 each so that is a total of $3,999 and that only gives you 6 inputs and 6 outputs. You said you had 12-13 inputs and 9 outputs.

On the AVX-562 webpage it says that the 'System is expandable up to 36 remote wallplate outputs' but does not mention anything about adding inputs so I am wondering if it is possible to expand the inputs. You can expand the AVX-562 for more outputs at $699 for 6 outputs. So, this means you are up to $4,699 + tax/shipping for 6 inputs and 12 outputs. Where did you get $2K from?

Given CeLabs Cat5Rx/Tx baluns are about the same price as the ones that Audio Authority sells for the Avatrix, it looks like your choice of switch is costing you $3,398 for a 6x12. You could get an 8x8 component video matrix switch from HDTVsupply.com for only $1,499. I am going with a used Extron 8x8, 12x8 or 12x12, hopefully for about $300-$600 and realize there is a little bit more tinkering involved than you will have and that I need to get a Xantech IR-to-RS232 converter, but I was just curious about how you did your math.

Also, have you decided to reduce the number of sources you will have?
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post #55 of 103
2/5/09 at 7:36pm
A company is selling the 661 for 2199 or best offer on ebay. The company web site sells them for 2k. I did not include the wall plates in my earlier post. I will buy the main unit and slowly buy the wall plates.

I am considering in reducing my inputs but can't figure how. Movie room, living room, master room, game room, 3 kids room and bathroom and closet(same channel)

I still have the extron 12x12 in back of my mind (cheap) but what will i used for, my 7.1 in movie room and 5.1 in living room, audio switching. Still a little confused on that issue!

This will be my first system i wired but i'm a real diyer.
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post #56 of 103
2/5/09 at 7:38pm
I notice it did not mention if you can expand the inputs. that would be great.
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post #57 of 103
2/5/09 at 7:48pm
Well do you really need all of those source devices available to every room? You could just make some local to the room and not distributable. Why would you need 3 HD, 4 cables boxes, PS3, XBox and DVD available to every room? Aren't the game players going to be in the games room? Why do you need their signal to be distributed? Also, make some DVD's local if people want to play them in their rooms.

Also, with the CeLabs baluns you can use one balun to transmit to 1 or two rooms and that would turn 2 outputs in to one essentially.

You are not going to get a used 12x12 Extron cheap. I haven't even ever seen one on eBay.
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post #58 of 103
2/5/09 at 7:57pm
ok thinks for advice. I am sitting her thinking that how to cut some imput devices. I came across this unit, Extron Matrix crosspoint . This is selling on ebay and the bid is 305.
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post #59 of 103
2/5/09 at 8:53pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wap View Post

ok thinks for advice. I am sitting her thinking that how to cut some imput devices. I came across this unit, Extron Matrix crosspoint . This is selling on ebay and the bid is 305.

Remember you have to get an IR-to-RS232 converter and program it with the proper control codes using the SIS protocol language contained in the Extron manuals, unless you want to control it using the RS232 serial port using a computer or CQC. Also you'll need to get remotes and program them.
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post #60 of 103
2/6/09 at 5:20am
thanks, i still unsure which to buy. I will start runing the 4 runs of cat5a/6. Hopefully that will cover everything.
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