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Netflix streaming quality - Page 82

post #2431 of 2656
3/7/12 at 5:39pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by michaeltscott View Post

I was told by someone who apparently got it from a reliable source that Apple is receiving basic DD 5.1 and not DD+ (I won't say who told me this but his AVS Forum member name rhymes with "Danger Fun" ). As you point out, they're the only ones whose specs for Netflix say just "Dolby Digital" and not "Dolby Digital Plus". Netflix supposedly chose DD+ because it was easily separated from the video so that they could provide multiple selectable soundtracks (stereo, 5.1, alternative languages, etc)--basic DD has to be provided integrated with the video. It's difficult to believe that they'd be willing to keep a separate set of encodings with integrated basic DD around just for Apple while providing discrete video and stereo/DD+ streams for everyone else (unless of course Apple's paying for it).

AS large as Apple is, why is it surprising. Especially if they end up selling alot of units, that can only help Netflix. Not that I would ever buy one. It seems like it's lacking too much stuff. The Roku2 still seems like a better option.
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post #2432 of 2656
3/7/12 at 5:43pm
Paying for generation and maintenance of a separate set of video encodings for ATV isn't that big of a deal now, since there are only about 1000 titles with 5.1 sound. I just wonder why Apple doesn't make ATV deal with DD+--it's designed to be easily converted to basic DD.
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post #2433 of 2656
3/7/12 at 5:52pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by michaeltscott View Post

Paying for generation and maintenance of a separate set of video encodings for ATV isn't that big of a deal now, since there are only about 1000 titles with 5.1 sound. I just wonder why Apple doesn't make ATV deal with DD+--it's designed to be easily converted to basic DD.

Is the hardware capable of it? The Roku2 only passes through the DD+. Is this only a licensing issue or is it actually a hardware issue.
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post #2434 of 2656
3/7/12 at 6:03pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by aaronwt View Post

Is the hardware capable of it? The Roku2 only passes through the DD+. Is this only a licensing issue or is it actually a hardware issue.

I don't know for sure, but my assumption has been that Roku 2 only passes through to save on per unit licensing for Dolby tech. It does create some "problems" though. My Panasonic BDT220, PS3 and Xbox all make DD+ 5.1 sound the default, since all of them can receive it and turn it into something else (the game consoles can't actually bitstream it, but the BD player can). The Roku can't make it the default because it can't be very confident that the downstream device, television or AVR, can deal with DD+. It's a PITA having to remember to turn it on every time I play something with 5.1 sound, particularly since you have to do it between episodes of a TV series. I wouldn't think that saving on licensing would be a big Apple concern.
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post #2435 of 2656
3/7/12 at 6:04pm
If the new Panasonic players stream Netflix in 1080p, why isn't Panasonic advertising that in the features? Stupid, isn't it?
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post #2436 of 2656
3/7/12 at 7:01pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim McC View Post

If the new Panasonic players stream Netflix in 1080p, why isn't Panasonic advertising that in the features? Stupid, isn't it?

It's an interesting detail for us in these forums, but I'm not so sure how much Joe Average really cares. But then Apple's playing it up a bit, so who knows?
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post #2437 of 2656
3/7/12 at 11:45pm
Netflix may become available on some cable companies set-top boxes (on-demand) as an additional option - article click here.

Would their boxes/service support Netflix in 1080p/5.1? or, would they limit its bandwidth?
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post #2438 of 2656
3/8/12 at 12:54am
My one hangup is still the iTunes ability as to Roku XDS or ATV-3
On the one hand:
I listen to music about 20% of the time, I have over 7000 songs in my iTunes library, 90% of the songs I added to iTunes via CD's @1441.
There is no reason to purchase Pandora.
On the other hand:
ATV 3 is limited to Netflix, no HULU, while I would only subscribe to one at a time, still, I would like the option to switch if titles were not available on both services. Although I believe that HULU is 720P.

I am leaning towards ATV3, hopefully there will be some immediate testing when it is released next week.
Why they decided to released it the same day as the iPad 3 is insane.
There is no way I would go near the Apple store that weekend.

Greg
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post #2439 of 2656
3/8/12 at 7:01am
Quote:
Originally Posted by mbroder View Post

I just signed up for 6mbps DSL with AT&T( it's not installed yet). Should I expect to get the highest quality available at that speed?

I have the att 6mbps dsl service and I can get X-HIGH HD so you should be fine but also depends on how far away you are from the TelCo station.
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post #2440 of 2656
3/8/12 at 8:42am
I have 6Mbps DSL from Souris River Telephone, yes a truly local phone company! With speed test, I do get between 6 and 6.5 Netflix looks great.

I tried signing up for their 16Mbps service, but I'm too far away from the central office, and top out at 12.

I signed up 18 months ago for their $19.95 service, which was then 4Mbps. Dec 1, they bumped the speed to 6. Now, it sounds like they'll bump it to 8Mbps in April.
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post #2441 of 2656
3/9/12 at 8:11pm
You guys must be closer than me to the servers Netflix uses, or something. I now have a sustained 10Mbps plan and I often can't remain in X-High during any sort of prime streaming hours.
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post #2442 of 2656
3/9/12 at 8:33pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by msgohan View Post

You guys must be closer than me to the servers Netflix uses, or something. I now have a sustained 10Mbps plan and I often can't remain in X-High during any sort of prime streaming hours.

Do you get around 10Mbps when you check with something like speedtest?
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post #2443 of 2656
3/10/12 at 1:16pm
I watched Beneath the Darkness the other night and found the image quality to be too dark. Apparently it was a bad transfer or encode. I highly doubt it was "style" as it got in the way of viewing the film.
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post #2444 of 2656
3/10/12 at 1:24pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by michaeltscott View Post

On the Netflix blog there's an excellent explanation of what they're doing for encoding and delivery of streaming video entitled "Encoding for streaming". In that article, under the heading "Delivered Quality", it explains that they use a four bar system of for measured connection bandwidth, for which they deliver 500, 1000, 1600 and 2200 Kbps encodings; for some content, where the source quality is particularly high, they additionally have 3400 kbps encodings which will be delivered if your line speed is high enough. The article also explains that to get a particular encoding, they have to measure a 40% higher connection speed, implying:
# Bars Encoding Req'd Speed
Four 3400 4760
Four 2200 3080
Three 1600 2240
Two 1000 1400
One 500 700

(Bit rates are in Kbps).

So your 2 Mbps line speed should get you (at best) the two bar, 1 Mbps encoding. Remember, depending upon the number of hops through the network between you and the server, the real rate for any connection may be lower than the theoretical maximum for your network service. Your distance to the nearest server for Hulu might be less than to Netflix. How many bars is it reporting?

It is what it is. If it's not good enough, wait until you have higher speed service to use it and be content with Hulu.

So, can you get BR quality (1080P) video at 4 bars? I'm not really interested in DVD quality anymore.

Floyd
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post #2445 of 2656
3/10/12 at 1:48pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Floydster View Post

So, can you get BR quality (1080P) video at 4 bars? I'm not really interested in DVD quality anymore.

Floyd


Netflix doesn't have anything that is close to BD quality.
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post #2446 of 2656
3/10/12 at 4:25pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Floydster View Post

So, can you get BR quality (1080P) video at 4 bars? I'm not really interested in DVD quality anymore.

There's a few considerations.
  • You have to have a decent internet connection (at least 6-8Mbps).
  • You have to have a 1080p capable streamer: PS3, Roku2, one of the 2012 Panasonic BD players, etc. Otherwise you are stuck with 720p (or worse if you use a Wii for some strange reason)
  • You have to be watching one of the HD movies (I believe this is roughly 60% of their catalog right now).

If you have the above, it looks pretty decent. I rank it somewhere between BD and the HD I get from my cable provider (FiOS). If I had to rank what I typicall watch now, it would go BD -> Vudu -> Netflix -> FiOS -> DVD.

Of course, some of that's subjective, and dependent on you, your senses, your equipment, etc. Not to mention your opinion of spending $8 a month and having movies and TV shows available at the touch of a button. I use a 50" plasma and a PS3 (currently) and have been very happy with the quality. It seems to be constantly improving as well.

You might want to check out this thread that has quite a few screenshots comparing some of the services to see what you think (easiest if you open up the images in separate windows or tabs and then just switch between them).
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1302612

Of course, you can always use the free trial to check it out.
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post #2447 of 2656
3/10/12 at 5:37pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by EJ View Post

Do you get around 10Mbps when you check with something like speedtest?

Slightly higher according to that site. As I said I get sustained 10 (downloading large files).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Floydster View Post

So, can you get BR quality (1080P) video at 4 bars? I'm not really interested in DVD quality anymore.

The post you're responding to is over 3 years old. They didn't have 1080p then.
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post #2448 of 2656
3/10/12 at 6:37pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Floydster View Post

So, can you get BR quality (1080P) video at 4 bars? I'm not really interested in DVD quality anymore.

Floyd

Yeah--that is a really old post . I answered a question about bandwidth requirements for 1080p here, in another thread. The latest players use adaptive bit rate technology, switching from higher to lower bit-rate/picture-quality encodings when player is failing to keep up and back to higher bit-rate/picture-quality encodings when conditions improve--they don't generally display those signal-strength style bars anymore.

Here are some comparisons of Netflix 1080p to BD that you can make from msgohan's screen captures:

Warning: Spoiler! (Click to show)
Spoiler  
Warning: Spoiler! (Click to show)
From Outbreak (VUDU HDX frame on the bottom):
http://img821.imageshack.us/img821/5...tbreak03bd.png

http://img20.imageshack.us/img20/8778/outbreak03nf.png

http://img703.imageshack.us/img703/6...tbreak03vd.png From Lost, Season 1, Episode 1:
http://img255.imageshack.us/img255/9571/lostbd.png

http://img402.imageshack.us/img402/870/lostnf.png And a couple from The Matrix Revolutions:
http://img695.imageshack.us/img695/447/matrix301hd.png

http://img98.imageshack.us/img98/8634/matrix301nf.png

http://img18.imageshack.us/img18/1197/matrix302hd.png

http://img406.imageshack.us/img406/4848/matrix302nf.png To compare, load each pair of pictures into separate tabs in a browser window and blow the window up to fill the screen with F11 (I use Chrome, because it does fullscreen best, with no frame or border whatsoever). Switch between them (instantaneously) using Ctrl-Tab. I've done this comparison on this 46" Mitsubishi 1080p LCD panel (what I use as the monitor for this PC) and I don't think that the difference is something that Joe Average would notice.

I favor those because they're human faces, a good source of fine detail for comparison. I believe that these show that Netflix 1080p, while not as sharp as BD, is pretty decent.
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post #2449 of 2656
3/10/12 at 7:46pm
Get a Roku XS and see for yourself. I've been pleasantly surprised as I was when I first saw a Vudu HDX title. Netflix HD 1080P is quite good.
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post #2450 of 2656
3/10/12 at 8:12pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by imws View Post

Get a Roku XS and see for yourself. I've been pleasantly surprised as I was when I first saw a Vudu HDX title. Netflix HD 1080P is quite good.

I watch Netflix 1080p and Vudu HDX through my PS3 on my Sony VW60 1080p projector on an 88" screen. Netflix looks very good. Vudu HDX looks even better. I would expect it to, next to an $8/month service.
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post #2451 of 2656
3/10/12 at 11:45pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by aaronwt View Post

Netflix doesn't have anything that is close to BD quality.

I disagree with this 100%. With my new Pan. 220 streaming Netflix in 1080p, the image quality is great. And that's on my 106" projection screen.
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post #2452 of 2656
3/11/12 at 6:04am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim McC View Post

I disagree with this 100%. With my new Pan. 220 streaming Netflix in 1080p, the image quality is great. And that's on my 106" projection screen.

I never said the image quality was not good. I said it is not BD quality. Any Netflix HD stream that has a BD counterpart, there is a very noticeable difference in the quality when I compare them.

I still use Netflix streaming alot. The past couple of months I've streamed over one hundred titles. You can't beat the convenience, but it is not close to BD quality and neither is the audio. Depending on the title on Netflix and the channel on FiOS I would rank it around broadcast quality or a little better. I'm comparing it to my broadcast content which is cleaned up by going through an Algolith HDMi Flea before going to my DVDO DUO scaler. SO it looks very good. And certainly better than any of broadcast HD content I've seen on friends and family members HD sets with FiOS and Comcast. Without the image being cleaned up some, the quality typically suffers from broadcast.
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post #2453 of 2656
3/11/12 at 6:26am
Quote:
Originally Posted by mproper View Post

  • You have to have a 1080p capable streamer: PS3, Roku2, one of the 2012 Panasonic BD players, etc. Otherwise you are stuck with 720p (or worse if you use a Wii for some strange reason)

The Wii is an SD device. The best it can do is 480p, even for games.
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post #2454 of 2656
3/11/12 at 10:33am
Quote:
Originally Posted by andyross63 View Post

The Wii is an SD device. The best it can do is 480p, even for games.

Yeah...hence my comment.
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post #2455 of 2656
3/11/12 at 12:47pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim McC View Post

I disagree with this 100%. With my new Pan. 220 streaming Netflix in 1080p, the image quality is great. And that's on my 106" projection screen.

Quote:
Originally Posted by aaronwt View Post

I never said the image quality was not good. I said it is not BD quality. Any Netflix HD stream that has a BD counterpart, there is a very noticeable difference in the quality when I compare them.

If you compare the example shots that I listed back in post #2448, you can clearly see the difference. But Netflix is pretty good considering that its 1080p video has an average bit rate of 20-30% of the bit rate of a typical BD.
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post #2456 of 2656
3/11/12 at 1:10pm
Again I would wonder if we did a visual test would people here be able to tell the difference between 1080p and 720p. I do video editing and I think anyone else who does might notice the increased crispness but I would rather put up with 720p and less macro blocking which you sometimes get with 1080p encodes. After all FOX and ABC use 720p and I don't read a lot of complaints about it.

That said, I have had few complaints about Netflix service since I got a different Bluray player back at the end of the year. Being a Sony it tells me the connect speed when starting up or anytime I press the "Display" button. The new wrinkle will be that as of yesterday I have moved from 6 mbps service to 12 mbps. I had a DVD to watch so didn't try out Netflix but will tonight. It might make me consider buying HDX on Vudu which I've done before even with 6 mbps.
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post #2457 of 2656
3/11/12 at 1:32pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brian Conrad View Post

Again I would wonder if we did a visual test would people here be able to tell the difference between 1080p and 720p. I do video editing and I think anyone else who does might notice the increased crispness but I would rather put up with 720p and less macro blocking which you sometimes get with 1080p encodes. After all FOX and ABC use 720p and I don't read a lot of complaints about it.

Fox and ABC (particularly ABC) have offered some pretty high PQ television, with not a lot to choose between them and the best the 1080i networks produce.

I've actually been pretty impressed with Netflix's encodings. My bandwidth consumption test sequence, minutes 5-14 of On Bak 2, 10 minutes of martial arts combat in the rain, is consistently crisp throughout. As 4.8 Mbps 1080p you'd expect it to dissolve into macroblocking hell, but it doesn't.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brian Conrad View Post

Being a Sony it tells me the connect speed when starting up or anytime I press the "Display" button.

I just ordered the 2012 Sony BDP-S590. It's Netflix player will show you the encoding that you're current getting when you press the DISPLAY button, like the PS3's player ("Medium/HD", "High/HD", "X-High/HD", etc). Unlike the PS3, it can bitstream Netflix DD+ 5.1; the PS3 converts it into 640 Kbps basic DD, which is quite noticeably inferior. The S590 also has an Amazon player with 5.1 sound support and a VUDU player. If it all checks out I will have found my Holy Grail of streamers .
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post #2458 of 2656
3/11/12 at 1:47pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by aaronwt View Post

I never said the image quality was not good. I said it is not BD quality.

Actually, you said "Netflix doesn't have anything that is close to BD quality". That generalization is simply not true.
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post #2459 of 2656
3/11/12 at 5:58pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brian Conrad View Post

Again I would wonder if we did a visual test would people here be able to tell the difference between 1080p and 720p. I do video editing and I think anyone else who does might notice the increased crispness but I would rather put up with 720p and less macro blocking which you sometimes get with 1080p encodes. After all FOX and ABC use 720p and I don't read a lot of complaints about it.

That said, I have had few complaints about Netflix service since I got a different Bluray player back at the end of the year. Being a Sony it tells me the connect speed when starting up or anytime I press the "Display" button. The new wrinkle will be that as of yesterday I have moved from 6 mbps service to 12 mbps. I had a DVD to watch so didn't try out Netflix but will tonight. It might make me consider buying HDX on Vudu which I've done before even with 6 mbps.

Which station broadcasts in 1080p, you cite 720p examples but which ones do 1080p?

I can easily tell the difference between 1080i and 720p and prefer 1080i. Just because you don't hear people demanding that FOX and ABC join the 1080i club does not mean we can't tell the difference.
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post #2460 of 2656
3/11/12 at 6:44pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim McC View Post

Actually, you said "Netflix doesn't have anything that is close to BD quality". That generalization is simply not true.

VUDU quality is certainly better than Netflix. But I also wouldn't say that VUDU is BD quality either. It's the closest to BD qulaity I've seen from streaming, but a BD is typically cream of the crop. Of course there are some encodes that are crap, but that has always been the case with any format. But your typical encode will be the best on BD, VUDu will be below that, and Netflix is below that too.

I have no issue with Netflix. For me it is more about convenience. I don't need the best quality in everything I watch, but I do want something that looks decent. And Netflix typically meets that with the titles I watch. Well except for when they had the Starz content, which seemed to be some of the worst encodes they had. At least every time I tried to look at one it made me want to puke because it looked so bad. Too bad for me to watch it. So I was glad when they finally got rid of that content so I didn't have to run into it any more.
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