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Netflix streaming quality - Page 137

post #4081 of 5438
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom Bley View Post

"Tom, I also remember streaming basic NF HD just fine a year ago. Once SuperHD came out, that's when things started going downhill for me."

It was called X-High and was 1080. I think it was also a higher kb than the new Super HD which I think is 5800kbps.

The devices with the stream info display used to indicate "Medium/HD" for 720p at 2350 Kbps, "High/HD" for 720p at 3600 Kbps and "X-High/HD" for 1080p at 4800 Kbps. Netflix then began using an AVC encoder from a company call eyeIO which supposedly creates better quality video at the same or lower bit rates. At that point they changed the 3600 Kbps 720p encode to 720p at 3000 Kbps and the 4800 Kbps 1080p encode to 1080p at 3850 Kbps. Since that stream info display seemed to be based on bit rates received, it started showing "Medium/HD" for both the 2350 and 3000 Kbps encodes and "High/HD" for the 3850 Kbps encode; "X-High/HD" disappeared. Today that display shows resolutions: "720 HD" for both the 2350- and 3000 Kbps encodes, "1080 HD" for the 3850 Kbps encode and "1080 Super HD" for the 4300- and 5800 Kbps encodes.
post #4082 of 5438
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom Bley View Post

I actually tried Amazon Prime a couple nights ago and it stayed pretty much at 1080...

Are you sure that you were getting 1080p? Until recently they only had 720p encoded at less than 3000 Kbps. Supposedly their 1080p is encoded at a ridiculous 10 Mbps and only a small subset of devices can get it; I haven't been able to get that on my PS3 (one of that subset) from whatever servers I get connected to.
post #4083 of 5438
Quote:
Originally Posted by michaeltscott View Post

The devices with the stream info display used to indicate "Medium/HD" for 720p at 2350 Kbps, "High/HD" for 720p at 3600 Kbps and "X-High/HD" for 1080p at 4800 Kbps. Netflix then began using an AVC encoder from a company call eyeIO which supposedly creates better quality video at the same or lower bit rates. At that point they changed the 3600 Kbps 720p encode to 720p at 3000 Kbps and the 4800 Kbps 1080p encode to 1080p at 3850 Kbps. Since that stream info display seemed to be based on bit rates received, it started showing "Medium/HD" for both the 2350 and 3000 Kbps encodes and "High/HD" for the 3850 Kbps encode; "X-High/HD" disappeared. Today that display shows resolutions: "720 HD" for both the 2350- and 3000 Kbps encodes, "1080 HD" for the 3850 Kbps encode and "1080 Super HD" for the 4300- and 5800 Kbps encodes.

Thanks, Michael. Yes that's it. ☺ I remember that fiasco, my PS3 display was strange for several weeks.
post #4084 of 5438
Quote:
Originally Posted by michaeltscott View Post

Are you sure that you were getting 1080p? Until recently they only had 720p encoded at less than 3000 Kbps. Supposedly their 1080p is encoded at a ridiculous 10 Mbps and only a small subset of devices can get it; I haven't been able to get that on my PS3 (one of that subset) from whatever servers I get connected to.

Yes, it started with the HD logo grayed out and then quickly lit up, then after a while (not sure how long) next to the lit HD logo was the 1080P logo.
post #4085 of 5438
Still getting SHD with extremely fast ramp-up here, using a TiVo Roamio as the viewing device. So far, so good, maybe it was just holiday traffic congestion that was causing the very bad performance I was getting previously.

Comcast in Santa Rosa, CA
post #4086 of 5438
Quote:
Originally Posted by undecided View Post

People still do that! (I know I have an SPL meter somewhere) - but I got to say my receiver with Audyssey does a great job of automatic room correction - there is a massive avs thread on Audyssey set up here http://www.avsforum.com/t/795421/official-audyssey-thread-faq-in-post-51779

Haha! I have a couple of them, a digital and an analog, I preferred using the analog one. Since I started using Denon AVRs though I've never bothered with them anymore since the Audyssey EQ system works so well, and with my new Denon, the Audyssey MultiEQ XT32 makes it even better.
post #4087 of 5438
Quote:
Originally Posted by undecided View Post

People still do that! (I know I have an SPL meter somewhere) - but I got to say my receiver with Audyssey does a great job of automatic room correction - there is a massive avs thread on Audyssey set up here http://www.avsforum.com/t/795421/official-audyssey-thread-faq-in-post-51779

I never had much luck with ARC in my media room. Besides, I actually enjoy doing it manually.


Ian
post #4088 of 5438
Quote:
Originally Posted by michaeltscott View Post

Are you sure that you were getting 1080p? Until recently they only had 720p encoded at less than 3000 Kbps. Supposedly their 1080p is encoded at a ridiculous 10 Mbps and only a small subset of devices can get it; I haven't been able to get that on my PS3 (one of that subset) from whatever servers I get connected to.

I know in my tests with the PS4 and Amazon, not all titles seem to have 1080P. I could go to some titles and quickly get to 1080P everytime I streamed them, while some other titles never showed 1080P. So I figured they were just not available in 1080P. Or is my thinking wrong?
post #4089 of 5438
Quote:
Originally Posted by mgkdragn View Post

It's funny to me that in the past, I've posted the VPN work around, I've made a strong case for selective throttling at the ISP level, I've explained peering / packets, why NF is the target and Amazon / VUDU is not, etc .. and was continually poo pooed and even attacked at times ..

Yet now, I'm beginning to feel a little shift toward "Maybe he was on to something after all .." wink.gif

Sorry, but there is no excuse for an ISP to throttle Netflix for a person who is paying upwards of $130 a month for 100 Megabits bandwidth. Hell they shouldn't be doing it to a person who is paying for 30 Megabits. We should not have to resort to VPN to get around what is obviously "someone" messing with an already paid for service. If your ISP cannot come through with what you have already paid for then they should refund your money and find a new line of work. Comcast makes enough money off us to have bought NBC for CASH!!!!!!

I'm ,to gonna shed a damn tear for them if they are gonna cry about their bandwidth woes. Take some of the Billions you make and improve your network.
post #4090 of 5438
Quote:
Originally Posted by michaeltscott View Post

Are you sure that you were getting 1080p? Until recently they only had 720p encoded at less than 3000 Kbps. Supposedly their 1080p is encoded at a ridiculous 10 Mbps and only a small subset of devices can get it; I haven't been able to get that on my PS3 (one of that subset) from whatever servers I get connected to.

I have been debugging a number of devices after I noticed the Netflix was getting crushed by "Someone" starting in January, maybe earlier, and as far as Amazon goes my Roku reports it as a 2 MB stream out of 18MB via wireless.

I have a feeling whatever these services are sending out, a lot of us are getting much less than we are supposed to. I will be testing and verifying all of this and will report back hard numbers once I have them.
post #4091 of 5438
Quote:
Originally Posted by ttringle View Post

Sorry, but there is no excuse for an ISP to throttle Netflix for a person who is paying upwards of $130 a month for 100 Megabits bandwidth. Hell they shouldn't be doing it to a person who is paying for 30 Megabits. We should not have to resort to VPN to get around what is obviously "someone" messing with an already paid for service. If your ISP cannot come through with what you have already paid for then they should refund your money and find a new line of work. Comcast makes enough money off us to have bought NBC for CASH!!!!!!

I'm ,to gonna shed a damn tear for them if they are gonna cry about their bandwidth woes. Take some of the Billions you make and improve your network.

Read up on peering .. Tier 1 bandwidth costs an ISP money ..

In addition to throttling, the cap on monthly usage can also come into play, if your ISP has a cap ..

Unless and until solutions are worked out with Tier 1 providers / ISP's / content providers, we're not going to see any widespread major changes .. we're dealing with Cartels here ..
post #4092 of 5438
Quote:
Originally Posted by keenan View Post

Still getting SHD with extremely fast ramp-up here, using a TiVo Roamio as the viewing device. So far, so good, maybe it was just holiday traffic congestion that was causing the very bad performance I was getting previously.

Comcast in Santa Rosa, CA

This might be Comcast implementing new tech on the back end and not having it fully set up yet. It is the only reason I have not complained as of yet. But if by the end of next week it has not cleared it self up, I will be speaking to a manager level over there. With the amount of money I put into my bandwidth I won't have them or anything else messing with it.
post #4093 of 5438
Quote:
Originally Posted by mgkdragn View Post

Read up on peering .. Tier 1 bandwidth costs an ISP money ..

In addition to throttling, the cap on monthly usage can also come into play, if your ISP has a cap ..

Unless and until solutions are worked out with Tier 1 providers / ISP's / content providers, we're not going to see any widespread major changes .. we're dealing with Cartels here ..

I don't need to read up on peering as I already understand it just fine, and Comcast gets paid more than an adequate amount for them to be able to afford whatever they have to. see, http://www.nytimes.com/2013/08/01/business/media/comcast-profit-jumps-26-on-growth-of-broadband.html?_r=0 .Not sure why you are so worried about them, They bought NBC outright with cash and didn't even have to do a stock swap.

1. I don't care what Comcast pays to anybody. I pay them for internet access at a specific speed, PERIOD. If they can't provide that then they need to admit it and change their pricing accordingly.
2. Their Caps are suspended at the moment so that is not it. Unless they are throttling people without any notification whatsoever. Either way it has been some time since I have hit anywhere near the amount of bandwidth they will probably cap the 100 Megabit service at.
Edited by ttringle - 1/17/14 at 2:02pm
post #4094 of 5438
Quote:
Originally Posted by aaronwt View Post

I know in my tests with the PS4 and Amazon, not all titles seem to have 1080P. I could go to some titles and quickly get to 1080P everytime I streamed them, while some other titles never showed 1080P. So I figured they were just not available in 1080P. Or is my thinking wrong?

How are you showing the stream quality on the PS4? And does the same method work on the PS3 because the Roku is proving difficult to get statistics for the streams from Amazon.
post #4095 of 5438
Quote:
Originally Posted by aaronwt View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by michaeltscott View Post

Are you sure that you were getting 1080p? Until recently they only had 720p encoded at less than 3000 Kbps. Supposedly their 1080p is encoded at a ridiculous 10 Mbps and only a small subset of devices can get it; I haven't been able to get that on my PS3 (one of that subset) from whatever servers I get connected to.

I know in my tests with the PS4 and Amazon, not all titles seem to have 1080P. I could go to some titles and quickly get to 1080P everytime I streamed them, while some other titles never showed 1080P. So I figured they were just not available in 1080P. Or is my thinking wrong?

At this point I wouldn't be surprised if only a subset of Amazon titles has 1080p encodes. I have tried titles that people told me they were getting in 1080p with no success.
post #4096 of 5438
Quote:
Originally Posted by ttringle View Post

I haven't confirmed as of now but I doubt they are throttling Amazon Instant. Definitely agree that I have no smoking gun yet that points at Comcast, but I have seen a lot of posts from others in the Chicago area that are experiencing the same thing and it has started recently.

I will give it another week and if it continues I will contact Comcast and inform them of the problem and ride them until they admit what they are doing or fix the issue. At which point I will make sure I get a written explanation of what they did to fix it and what the problem was. I am sure I will get the runaround, but I am the customer and I deserve to know what they are doing with the service that I have been paying them over a $1600 per year (have had the higher tiers for a long time)for a number of years.

With the recent FCC screwup in the courts this is only going to get worse before it gets better.
I won't say Comcast is or is not doing anything to Netflix, because I have no idea. I only know my situation. Before I cancelled Netflix, my service went from being previously fairly consistent HD and then Super HD service, to just my Apple TV going to crap, to all my devices going to crap during prime time (and sometimes at other times, too). As I've mentioned in previous posts, I do not have one of the big Internet providers - I live in faculty housing on a school campus and I'm connected to the school's network, from which various Internet speed test sites usually peg me at 60-95 down and 30-50 up. I do not know where they get their Internet service from, but I've asked the head of the network here if they do anything to restrict Netflix or other streaming and he said they do not (they do block torrent sites, pornography, gambling). He said they certainly haven't made any changes since my Netflix problems began in November and escalated around Christmas. So what all of that means, I do not know, but it's not just giant providers like Comcast that are causing problems by throttling.
post #4097 of 5438
Quote:
Originally Posted by met_fan View Post

I won't say Comcast is or is not doing anything to Netflix, because I have no idea. I only know my situation. Before I cancelled Netflix, my service went from being previously fairly consistent HD and then Super HD service, to just my Apple TV going to crap, to all my devices going to crap during prime time (and sometimes at other times, too). As I've mentioned in previous posts, I do not have one of the big Internet providers - I live in faculty housing on a school campus and I'm connected to the school's network, from which various Internet speed test sites usually peg me at 60-95 down and 30-50 up. I do not know where they get their Internet service from, but I've asked the head of the network here if they do anything to restrict Netflix or other streaming and he said they do not (they do block torrent sites, pornography, gambling). He said they certainly haven't made any changes since my Netflix problems began in November and escalated around Christmas. So what all of that means, I do not know, but it's not just giant providers like Comcast that are causing problems by throttling.

At least in my situation, as I cannot speak for everybody, It most definitely is not Netflix causing the issue, as when I use a VPN the throttling goes away and Netflix streams at 1080p again. So it really stands to reason that it's either Comcast (my ISP) or a CDN which is or is not chosen by Comcast. Either way Comcast is refusing to join in on Netflix's program to improve Netflix streaming performance.

Comcast has been proven in the past to be less than forthcoming with their throttling things, but I will not cancel Netflix as I do not believe they are where the blame lies. Sorry you felt you had to do that because there are options that you can utilize. Granted it's a pain, but I won't go back to a Cable sub and Comcast's streaming service sucks.
post #4098 of 5438
This will be a little lengthy post ..

There is a behind the scenes battle going on to control the Web .. and the telcos and CATV providers need to protect their profit margins ..

Instead of banning NF or YouTube or ______ (fill in the blank) .. ISP's would like to charge the content providers by paying for each additional port that needs to be opened when traffic starts filling them up .. and running a speed test with most widely available apps will not show you what your NF or other content is being delivered at unless it's using the exact same port .. but it will support the ISP's contention that "there is nothing wrong with your set" ..

Peering is the way this is being done .. essentially an arrangement between two bandwidth providers .. the companies that control the physical backbone of the internet .. in which they send and receive traffic from each other for free. .. traffic sent from one network to another is reciprocated without adding extra costs and hurdles. This makes the web more efficient and redundant because companies don’t need to build out a network to connect every single service to every person who wants to consume that service.

Think of a port as being the same as adding another lane to the freeway ..

If an ISP allows it's traffic to run hot .. or IOW, crammed with traffic and refuses to open another port, the end user will see a slowdown .. it has absolutely nothing to do with the content provider ..

Open Connect is essentially a cache .. which brings content closer to the ISP where it meets the Tier 1 provider .. and that's why Open Connect ISP's all seem to get general praise ..

This is no different than the fairly well known (on AVS anyway) tussle that took place with Verizon/Cogent back in 2010 ..

The Web is based on physical, real equipment .. when a port gets crammed, packets will drop .. that's just the way it is ..
post #4099 of 5438
Quote:
Originally Posted by ttringle View Post

I don't need to read up on peering as I already understand it just fine, and Comcast gets paid more than an adequate amount for them to be able to afford whatever they have to. see, http://www.nytimes.com/2013/08/01/business/media/comcast-profit-jumps-26-on-growth-of-broadband.html?_r=0 .Not sure why you are so worried about them, They bought NBC outright with cash and didn't even have to do a stock swap.

1. I don't care what Comcast pays to anybody. I pay them for internet access at a specific speed, PERIOD. If they can't provide that then they need to admit it and change their pricing accordingly.
2. Their Caps are suspended at the moment so that is not it. Unless they are throttling people without any notification whatsoever. Either way it has been some time since I have hit anywhere near the amount of bandwidth they will probably cap the 100 Megabit service at.

My post is a general post .. I'm not necessarily singling out any provider ..

No need to explain, I'm with you, friend .. smile.gif
post #4100 of 5438
Quote:
Originally Posted by mgkdragn View Post

Open Connect is essentially a cache .. which brings content closer to the ISP where it meets the Tier 1 provider .. and that's why Open Connect ISP's all seem to get general praise ..

There are two parts: (1) Netflix will pay for direct peering with the ISPs' networks at common exchange points; (2) Netflix will provide caching server equipment in or near the participating ISPs' networks so that requests for the most popular titles will be satisfied without the content travelling far at all (your local customer base has to be 100K or more to qualify for these "storage appliances").
post #4101 of 5438
I won't argue the technical aspects of poor Netflix streaming with people on here, because my knowledge of that is not great. The only way I have to look at it, and I suspect how many regular, non-technophile Netflix subs do too, is that I pay (paid) Netflix for them to provide a service. When I don't receive that service - regardless of the reasons behind the scenes that are invisible to me - the provider I pay gets the blame. It's especially easy for me, since I don't pay an ISP, but even if I did, my view is that it is up to Netflix to make the deals they need to make to get their service to me at the level they stated when I signed up.
post #4102 of 5438
Quote:
Originally Posted by met_fan View Post

I won't argue the technical aspects of poor Netflix steaming with people on here, because my knowledge of that is not great. The only way I have to look at it, and I suspect how many regular, non-technophile Netflix subs do too, is that I pay (paid) Netflix for them to provide a service. When I don't receive that service - regardless of the reasons behind the scenes that are invisible to me - the provider I pay gets the blame. It's especially easy for me, since I don't pay an ISP, but even if I did, my view is that it is up to Netflix to make the deals they need to make to get their service to me at the level they stated when I sign up.

Which, I believe, is exactly why NF offers Open Connect ..
post #4103 of 5438
Quote:
Originally Posted by michaeltscott View Post

There are two parts: (1) Netflix will pay for direct peering with the ISPs' networks at common exchange points; (2) Netflix will provide caching server equipment in or near the participating ISPs' networks so that requests for the most popular titles will be satisfied without the content travelling far at all (your local customer base has to be 100K or more to qualify for these "storage appliances").

I honestly consider you an expert .. I am simply a humble hobbiest that's self studied .. smile.gif
post #4104 of 5438
Quote:
Originally Posted by met_fan View Post

...my view is that it is up to Netflix to make the deals they need to make to get their service to me at the level they stated when I signed up.

Or, alternately, to choose not to and let you decide whether the service that you get is good enough for you to continue. Despite the complaints that we see here, Netflix's subscribership continues to grow at a good pace. Until that trend reverses they don't need to do anything to fix their service for those who don't get the best.

If I got service anywhere near as bad as many people report here I'd complain directly to Netflix and then cancel it if things didn't quickly improve. Life is too short to spend it watching streaming video with extremely poor PQ.
post #4105 of 5438
Quote:
Originally Posted by mgkdragn View Post

I honestly consider you an expert .. I am simply a humble hobbiest that's self studied .. smile.gif

C'mon--I just repeat what I can find out from online sources like everyone else. Streaming video tech is just a strong interest of mine.
post #4106 of 5438
Quote:
Originally Posted by ttringle View Post

How are you showing the stream quality on the PS4? And does the same method work on the PS3 because the Roku is proving difficult to get statistics for the streams from Amazon.

Press down on R3 (the analog stick)
post #4107 of 5438
Quote:
Originally Posted by mgkdragn View Post

Which, I believe, is exactly why NF offers Open Connect ..
Fine, but how does that help me, or anyone else that doesn't have that option? It's not like I can go order Open Connect from another provider. In fact, in my situation, how could I ever get Open Connect? With the quality I was getting, I could dial up a show that originated in 1965 confident in the fact that it probably looked better when my father was watching it in 1965 than it did for me today. There was no option for me to improve service, so I cancelled.
post #4108 of 5438
Quote:
Originally Posted by michaeltscott View Post

Or, alternately, to choose not to and let you decide whether the service that you get is good enough for you to continue. Despite the complaints that we see here, Netflix's subscribership continues to grow at a good pace. Until that trend reverses they don't need to do anything to fix their service for those who don't get the best.

If I got service anywhere near as bad as many people report here I'd complain directly to Netflix and then cancel it if things didn't quickly improve. Life is too short to spend it watching streaming video with extremely poor PQ.
Obviously, which is why I cancelled. But clearly, it bothers me a bit.
post #4109 of 5438
Quote:
Originally Posted by met_fan View Post

Fine, but how does that help me, or anyone else that doesn't have that option? It's not like I can go order Open Connect from another provider. In fact, in my situation, how could I ever get Open Connect? With the quality I was getting, I could dial up a show that originated in 1965 confident in the fact that it probably looked better when my father was watching it in 1965 than it did for me today. There was no option for me to improve service, so I cancelled.

Ask your ISP why they don't participate .. or demand they deliver the speed you pay for regardless of where the content is coming from ..

I don't have Open Connect, however, I still get the quality 1080 feed, consistently, day in and day out .. I can stream 2 PS3's, be on a laptop and my better half can be playing a Facebook game and it's all good and rock steady .. just sayin' .. smile.gif
post #4110 of 5438
Quote:
Originally Posted by michaeltscott View Post

C'mon--I just repeat what I can find out from online sources like everyone else. Streaming video tech is just a strong interest of mine.

But you're so good at it .. tongue.gif
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