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Netflix streaming quality - Page 141

post #4201 of 5446
Quote:
Originally Posted by nephipower View Post

If you would have taken more due diligence with reading you would have found posts just on the previous page showing proof.

Here is a link I posted earlier.
http://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2013/07/why-youtube-buffers-the-secret-deals-that-make-and-break-online-video/
I read those same old articles over and over again. They are now irrelevant as the problems with Comcast and other ISPs got worse in November for Netflix but YouTube reliability has improved.

If anything YouTube improved for me. During the summer I could not watch anything in HD during peak hours. YouTube improved around the same time Netflix has gotten worse.
post #4202 of 5446
Quote:
Originally Posted by reddice View Post

I read those same old articles over and over again. They are now irrelevant as the problems with Comcast and other ISPs got worse in November for Netflix but YouTube reliability has improved.

Well you can't have it both ways.

Recently you were complaining that the press wasn't covering this issue.

Then when someone posts a link to an article with in-depth analysis you dismiss it as the 'same old articles over and over again'.

The article really isn't that old (July 2013) and while there will undoubtedly continue to be changes in which video services / providers / ISP are affected at any given time the basic principles discussed in the article remain unchanged.
post #4203 of 5446
Sorry I meant something current about the Comcast issues. Back in July 2013 Comcast did not have the horrible quality it has now.
post #4204 of 5446
Quote:
Originally Posted by Apostate View Post

No. You are saying ISP is the problem, not Netflix. I am saying the exact opposite. I am saying Netflix, not ponying up for sufficient bandwidth, is the problem, not ISP.

NF does not pay Tier 1 providers .. the problem is between the ISP and the Tier 1 provider ..
post #4205 of 5446
Quote:
Originally Posted by Apostate View Post

You said that Comcast ISP is throttling Netflix for the benefit of Comcast Cable, implying that Comcast Cable management somehow has a saying in how Comcast ISP operates.

I find it very difficult to believe that two divisions of a company using the same physical infrastructure to deliver their services (Comcast's hybrid fiber coax WANs), and the same service organization to maintain their equipment, charged to customers on the same bill, operate completely separately from one another.
post #4206 of 5446
Let's clarify the term "throttle" .. when and if I use it, it's really a generic term ..

The word is "cramming" .. when a port is overloaded and another port is not opened, thus causing a slowdown

This is perfectly legal .. when an ISP pays for bandwidth and they exceed the limit .. in days gone by, the Tier 1 provider would let it slide .. not so much now .. and the increase is video traffic is the reason ..
post #4207 of 5446
Quote:
Originally Posted by mgkdragn View Post

NF does not pay Tier 1 providers .. the problem is between the ISP and the Tier 1 provider ..

Nobody said Netflix pays Tier 1 providers. Why would my ISP, Verizon, would have problem with itself (also being a Tier 1 provider)?
post #4208 of 5446
Quote:
Originally Posted by mgkdragn View Post

The word is "cramming" .. when a port is overloaded and another port is not opened, thus causing a slowdown
So then can that cause the program to drop down to lower quality mid stream then? It happens more often around the 20-30 minute mark and it is quite annoying.
post #4209 of 5446
Quote:
Originally Posted by michaeltscott View Post

I find it very difficult to believe that two divisions of a company using the same physical infrastructure to deliver their services (Comcast's hybrid fiber coax WANs), and the same service organization to maintain their equipment, charged to customers on the same bill, operate completely separately from one another.

If Comcast was organized like a typical diversified corporation, I bet Comcast infrastructure would be owned by a different entity. Comcast cable, as well as, Comcast ISP would pay "rent" to it.

I think it's sometimes needlessly complicated but large US corporate structure typically delineate itself along business and industries.
post #4210 of 5446
Quote:
Originally Posted by mgkdragn View Post

.. when a port is overloaded and another port is not opened, thus causing a slowdown

Why would an ISP open another "port" when it's not obligated or compensated to do so?
post #4211 of 5446
Quote:
Originally Posted by Apostate View Post

Nobody said Netflix pays Tier 1 providers. Why would my ISP, Verizon, would have problem with itself (also being a Tier 1 provider)?

As I've mentioned .. Verizon Business is a Tier 1 .. I've never seen any info on Verizon Consumer being Tier 1 .. but I'd be glad to look at any link you have ..
post #4212 of 5446
Quote:
Originally Posted by Apostate View Post

Why would an ISP open another "port" when it's not obligated or compensated to do so?

Because they have not charged you, the user .. they are paying for a finite amount of bandwidth .. and allowing a port to run hot is perfectly legal, BTW ..

I don't often quote myself, but when I do ..

There is a behind the scenes battle going on to control the Web .. and the telcos and CATV providers need to protect their profit margins ..

Instead of banning NF or YouTube or ______ (fill in the blank) .. ISP's would like to charge the content providers by paying for each additional port that needs to be opened when traffic starts filling them up .. and running a speed test with most widely available apps will not show you what your NF or other content is being delivered at unless it's using the exact same port .. but it will support the ISP's contention that "there is nothing wrong with your set" ..

Peering is the way this is being done .. essentially an arrangement between two bandwidth providers .. the companies that control the physical backbone of the internet .. in which they send and receive traffic from each other for free. .. traffic sent from one network to another is reciprocated without adding extra costs and hurdles. This makes the web more efficient and redundant because companies don’t need to build out a network to connect every single service to every person who wants to consume that service.

Think of a port as being the same as adding another lane to the freeway ..

If an ISP allows it's traffic to run hot .. or IOW, crammed with traffic and refuses to open another port, the end user will see a slowdown .. it has absolutely nothing to do with the content provider ..

Open Connect is essentially a cache .. which brings content closer to the ISP where it meets the Tier 1 provider .. and that's why Open Connect ISP's all seem to get general praise ..

This is no different than the fairly well known (on AVS anyway) tussle that took place with Verizon/Cogent back in 2010 ..

The Web is based on physical, real equipment .. when a port gets crammed, packets will drop .. that's just the way it is ..
post #4213 of 5446
Quote:
Originally Posted by mgkdragn View Post

Because they have not charged you, the user .. they are paying for a finite amount of bandwidth .. and allowing a port to run hot is perfectly legal, BTW ..

I don't often quote myself, but when I do ..
.
.
.

Where does a CDN fit in? Did you know that Open Connect is a CDN? Why would or wouldn't an ISP "peer" with a CDN?
post #4214 of 5446
Quote:
Originally Posted by Apostate View Post

Where does a CDN fit in? Did you know that Open Connect is a CDN? Why would or wouldn't an ISP "peer" with a CDN?

I suppose it could be called a CDN .. it's really a cache more than a full delivery device .. IOW, NF does not store it's entire catalog at each appliance location ..

I believe one of the reasons Open Connect is not more widely adopted is the large ISP's are afraid other content providers (Amazon, etc) would expect the same access .. besides the obvious business interests ..
post #4215 of 5446
Quote:
Originally Posted by mgkdragn View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by Apostate View Post

Where does a CDN fit in? Did you know that Open Connect is a CDN? Why would or wouldn't an ISP "peer" with a CDN?

I suppose it could be called a CDN .. it's really a cache more than a full delivery device .. IOW, NF does not store it's entire catalog at each appliance location ..

Open Connect is a CDN, with server farms housing copies of their entire libraries located in presumably multiple locations around the world. Their deal includes free peering of their CDN with the ISPs' individual systems at common exchanges (i.e., "Cox San Diego") plus the caching "storage appliances" in or near those WANs for ISPs with 100K or more subs.

Now, if the commercial CDNs (Limelight, Level 3, Akamai, etc) are paying the ISPs to accept their traffic I can understand why some of them wouldn't support Open Connect if Netflix were unwilling to pay them at least the same amount. However, none of them has complained that they lose money by being Open Connect partners and numerous small single system service providers, whom you'd expect to be least able to afford a cut in paid traffic fees, were quick to become Open Connect partners.

And why would Netflix balk at paying them what the CDNs do, since it has to be significantly less than what they pay the CDNs, whose charges to Netflix have to mark up whatever they pay to the ISPs?
post #4216 of 5446
I notice when I stream from Amazon Servers it is more reliable.
post #4217 of 5446
Quote:
Originally Posted by reddice View Post

I notice when I stream from Amazon Servers it is more reliable.



How do you know it's coming via Amazon?


On another note when did Netflix changed their interface? Looks pretty cool, I'm watching Orange is the New Black, and now after 15 seconds a new epi starts...Continues play is how it rolls now cool.gif


Djoel
post #4218 of 5446
Quote:
Originally Posted by reddice View Post

I notice when I stream from Amazon Servers it is more reliable.

Every time one of your devices is streaming from Netflix you will see active connections with Amazon. It is for (for DRM / traffic management) - I really doubt you are getting content from Amazon servers.

You will also see active connections to others (Limelight, Akamai, Netflix Streaming Services etc) - these are your content servers.
post #4219 of 5446
Quote:
Originally Posted by mgkdragn View Post

NF does not pay Tier 1 providers .. the problem is between the ISP and the Tier 1 provider ..

Quote:
Originally Posted by Apostate View Post

Where does a CDN fit in? Did you know that Open Connect is a CDN? Why would or wouldn't an ISP "peer" with a CDN?
Quote:
Originally Posted by mgkdragn View Post

I suppose it could be called a CDN .. it's really a cache more than a full delivery device .. IOW, NF does not store it's entire catalog at each appliance location ..

mgkdragn you never really answered the question of where the CDN fits in.

My experience is that the CDN makes all the difference.

As I have posted (probably too many times) my Apple TV now streaming from Limelight always gets Super HD.

When it had issues last year it was streaming from Netflix Streaming Services. The bottleneck (at least for me) seems to be between Netflix Streaming Services to Comcast while Limelight to Comcast seems to have sufficient bandwidth in my area.

If the problem was between the ISP and Tier 1 provider as you propose - how do the CDNs fit in here?

None of Comcast/Limelight/Netflix are Tier 1 providers - in fact isn't it possible that there is no ISP to Tier 1 provider interaction happening here?

(not sure on the last point - but it seems possible that Comcast is connecting directly to either Limelight or Netflix Streaming Services - I am happy to be corrected if someone has actual data or informed comment on this).

Thanks
post #4220 of 5446
Quote:
Originally Posted by Apostate View Post


There is no financial reason for ISP to throttle any particular data flow since that would amount to throttling its revenue.

Many of us already know that the future of Content Delivery is more of a Netflix model and way less of a CableTV model. No matter how much money they put into their crap boxes and services (compared to the best of breed in each category) they will never satisfy those of us that buy Oppo BluRay players.

But to say that Comcast, has no financial reason for having some CDN slow down their competitors (Netflix) traffic, is laughable no offense. NBC before it was bought by Comcast would routinely keep shows off of iTunes for up to a year (Chuck) even though people wanted to buy the Content. Comcast has been caught slowing down specific traffic before (bit torrent) and it was most likely because people were downloading TV and Movies that was pissing them off. Comcast last year introduced Streampix (or as I refer to it Netflix's stupider, uglier brother). I'm sure the fact that the last part of that services name only sounds like flix by coincidence.

You say that there are no financial reasons for ISP's to throttle our services, when in fact their very futures are at stake as the gatekeepers of everything we can watch on a screen. They want you to go through their portals so THEY can know what you are watching and sell you more crap. Which is why Netflix'es of the world scare the crap out of them. Eventually they will become dumb pipes to the internet unless they get better. But thats hard, and interfering with the services we love and making theirs look better (streampix does not count against your data cap) through monopolistic practices is far easier.

stepping off the soapbox now before we get yelled at.

With a unmolested stream the Oppo103D looks as good as any of my devices and sounds better than all of them in Netflix.
post #4221 of 5446
Quote:
Originally Posted by undecided View Post



mgkdragn you never really answered the question of where the CDN fits in.

My experience is that the CDN makes all the difference.

As I have posted (probably too many times) my Apple TV now streaming from Limelight always gets Super HD.

When it had issues last year it was streaming from Netflix Streaming Services. The bottleneck (at least for me) seems to be between Netflix Streaming Services to Comcast while Limelight to Comcast seems to have sufficient bandwidth in my area.

If the problem was between the ISP and Tier 1 provider as you propose - how do the CDNs fit in here?

None of Comcast/Limelight/Netflix are Tier 1 providers - in fact isn't it possible that there is no ISP to Tier 1 provider interaction happening here?

(not sure on the last point - but it seems possible that Comcast is connecting directly to either Limelight or Netflix Streaming Services - I am happy to be corrected if someone has actual data or informed comment on this).

Thanks

Please excuse my ignorance, but this thread is so long that it just seems pragmatic to ask...
Is the Netflix Limelight setting just for Apple devices?

What is the best overall configuration for Roku 2 ?
It is so annoying to have to watch a fluctuating HD picture from Netflix. mad.gif
Has anyone talked to them about a comprehensive solution? With so many of us affected by it, you would think someone would step up with an answer.
One solution would be a device with built in buffering to smooth out the "stream". is there anything in the works?
If any or all of this has been adressed before, then please just point the way to the link or PM me. I hate to waste people's time.
Thanks.
post #4222 of 5446
Quote:
Originally Posted by ttringle View Post

Many of us already know that the future of Content Delivery is more of a Netflix model and way less of a CableTV model. No matter how much money they put into their crap boxes and services (compared to the best of breed in each category) they will never satisfy those of us that buy Oppo BluRay players.

But to say that Comcast, has no financial reason for having some CDN slow down their competitors (Netflix) traffic, is laughable no offense. NBC before it was bought by Comcast would routinely keep shows off of iTunes for up to a year (Chuck) even though people wanted to buy the Content. Comcast has been caught slowing down specific traffic before (bit torrent) and it was most likely because people were downloading TV and Movies that was pissing them off. Comcast last year introduced Streampix (or as I refer to it Netflix's stupider, uglier brother). I'm sure the fact that the last part of that services name only sounds like flix by coincidence.

You say that there are no financial reasons for ISP's to throttle our services, when in fact their very futures are at stake as the gatekeepers of everything we can watch on a screen. They want you to go through their portals so THEY can know what you are watching and sell you more crap. Which is why Netflix'es of the world scare the crap out of them. Eventually they will become dumb pipes to the internet unless they get better. But thats hard, and interfering with the services we love and making theirs look better (streampix does not count against your data cap) through monopolistic practices is far easier...

People tend to conceptualize the things they don't quite understand into a single, monolithic entity; and generalize the entity's motives and actions, i.e., Comcast, China, Islam. People also tend to scoff and laugh at things they are unfamiliar with.

People fail to realize that there are many moving parts to a large complex organization and the purpose of some of those parts may go against one another.
post #4223 of 5446
Quote:
Originally Posted by Apostate View Post

People tend to conceptualize the things they don't quite understand into a single, monolithic entity; and generalize the entity's motives and actions, i.e., Comcast, China, Islam. People also tend to scoff and laugh at things they are unfamiliar with.

People fail to realize that there are many moving parts to a large complex organization and the purpose of some of those parts may go against one another.

What? WTF does that have to do with this subject. The title of this thread is not "Zen and the art of ISP forgiveness"

The last time I checked. I did not get 20 different bills for my internet. I get ONE and it's from Comcast. a company that has been caught numerous times messing with peoples bandwidth, internet access in general, ability to host servers and given all sorts of BS excuses for why they do it.

THEY ARE AN ISP, not the federal government. There job is to ensure I have a connection to the internet AT or NEAR the speed they advertise at and without unnecessarily hindering my ability to get to services VIA the internet that I pay for. I don't care that they sell X if I am not interested in X. If all I want from them is Internet access then that is my right.

If you want to shrug and say "meh, there is nothing that can be done about it", that is your choice. I however will not do that.
post #4224 of 5446
Quote:
Originally Posted by ttringle View Post

What? WTF does that have to do with this subject. The title of this thread is not "Zen and the art of ISP forgiveness"

The last time I checked. I did not get 20 different bills for my internet. I get ONE and it's from Comcast. a company that has been caught numerous times messing with peoples bandwidth, internet access in general, ability to host servers and given all sorts of BS excuses for why they do it.

THEY ARE AN ISP, not the federal government. There job is to ensure I have a connection to the internet AT or NEAR the speed they advertise at and without unnecessarily hindering my ability to get to services VIA the internet that I pay for. I don't care that they sell X if I am not interested in X. If all I want from them is Internet access then that is my right.

If you want to shrug and say "meh, there is nothing that can be done about it", that is your choice. I however will not do that.

I am in single, monolithic agreement.
post #4225 of 5446
Will *any* device work to get 4K streaming from Netflix like the PS3, Oppo player, Chromecast, Roku, etc? Or will 4K streaming only work on certain devices? Is there a list somewhere that shows compatible devices? Also, are there any 4K movies/test clips on Netflix at the moment? I know House of Cards S2 is coming out in less than 3 weeks and it's supposed to be in 4K.

I purchased a Sony 4K projector and am very interested in testing it out.
post #4226 of 5446
Quote:
Originally Posted by lincoln_husker View Post

Will *any* device work to get 4K streaming from Netflix like the PS3, Oppo player, Chromecast, Roku, etc? Or will 4K streaming only work on certain devices? Is there a list somewhere that shows compatible devices? Also, are there any 4K movies/test clips on Netflix at the moment? I know House of Cards S2 is coming out in less than 3 weeks and it's supposed to be in 4K.

I purchased a Sony 4K projector and am very interested in testing it out.

AFAICT, only this funky Sony 4K media player can stream 4K from Netflix. This year's crop of 4K televisions have Netflix players which can play the 4K streams but I haven't heard of any STB that can stream it.

EDIT: Googling "4k media player" I found this, the Nuvola NP-1 4K streamer. It has a Netflix player and is priced at $300. I haven't found anything which says when it will ship; the manufacturer is accepting pre-orders.
post #4227 of 5446
Quote:
Originally Posted by michaeltscott View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by undecided View Post

Which may suggest that the issue is less widespread than all of us complaining here think it is.........

That said my suspicion is once the video is ~ 1750 kpbs or above many people just watch the show and don't even notice.

The 1050 Kbps 640x480 encode (with non-square pixels) is probably good enough for Joe and Jill Average biggrin.gif. I had a housemate whom I was constantly berating for watching widescreen programming on SD versions of HD cable channels, a letter boxed image in a 4x3 pillar box, wasting precisely half of the screen. She could care less rolleyes.gif.

From today's Netflix financials it seems Joe and Jill average are happy with Netflix streaming.

'In the U.S., Netflix added 2.33 million streaming subscribers in the fourth quarter, bringing its number of paying U.S. subscribers to 31.7 million'

http://online.wsj.com/news/articles/SB10001424052702303947904579336820835982270?mg=reno64-wsj&url=http%3A%2F%2Fonline.wsj.com%2Farticle%2FSB10001424052702303947904579336820835982270.html
post #4228 of 5446
Got the Chromecast yesterday and so far it streams greats. The difference is that it ramps up much quicker than the PS3 and Roku 3 like 5 seconds. I am surprised as it is wireless on 2.4 GHz which is congested in my area. Like I said time will tell. I said the same thing about the ATV and Roku 3 until the honeymoon ended and problems started.
post #4229 of 5446
Quote:
Originally Posted by reddice View Post

Got the Chromecast yesterday and so far it streams greats. The difference is that it ramps up much quicker than the PS3 and Roku 3 like 5 seconds. I am surprised as it is wireless on 2.4 GHz which is congested in my area. Like I said time will tell. I said the same thing about the ATV and Roku 3 until the honeymoon ended and problems started.

Another streaming device that will eventually break your heart. wink.gif

However this does point out why ISP throttling accusations don't make much sense when one device in your household can stream Netflix fine and another doesn't. In my case the Roku 3 is nearly flawless, the ATV 3 (with recent firmware) is generally poor and the WDTV Live (3rd generation) is somewhere in-between. Are ISP's selectively throttling certain devices and not others? Additionally I have almost zero problems with streaming Amazon Prime, Hulu+ or iTunes on one or all devices. This is on TWC/Roadruuner 15/1 - non OpenConnect.

I have yet to read an explanation that makes all-around sense. To the gurus here enlighten me if you will.

We cut the cord about 2 months ago and are using internet streaming in lieu of cable TV. Our experience so far has been painless since we don't need to watch sports.
post #4230 of 5446
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr.G View Post

Are ISP's selectively throttling certain devices and not others?

And then the others? And then not your area but others? So it's difficult to place blame but makes cable look better than Netflix? Couldn't happen.
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