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Can Samsung LNXXA650 LCD's do 5:5 pulldown, and what does that really mean?

post #1 of 6
Thread Starter 
I've been searching and searching but I haven't been able to find anything that explains this very well.

I am not talking about AMP. Forget AMP.

I am talking about the ability to take a 24fps/hz source and use 5:5 pulldown to display each frame 5 times and thereby reduce (get rid of??) the juddering present in LCD's.

First, I can't find anything that confirms that the LNXXA650 can do this (or for that matter the 750, 850), so does it in fact do this? It's awfully conspicuous that this information isn't easy to find...

Second, even if it does do this, how could I actually take advantage of this?

I currently have Comcast, and the cable box outputs at 60Hz, so when I'm watching a movie broadcast in HD, it's already gone through the 3:2 pulldown so it can be output at 60Hz, right? So in that case, there's nothing the LCD can do, because even if it did support 5:5 pulldown, it needs a source that's outputting at 24fps/hz, correct?

Does any Blu-ray player, or DVD player, or really anything, support outputting content at 24fps/hz? And, if there is, can someone confirm that that's the only way the LCD could take advantage of 5:5 pulldown (if it indeed did support it)?
post #2 of 6
Quote:
Originally Posted by dsh1998 View Post

I've been searching and searching but I haven't been able to find anything that explains this very well.

I am not talking about AMP. Forget AMP.

I am talking about the ability to take a 24fps/hz source and use 5:5 pulldown to display each frame 5 times and thereby reduce (get rid of??) the juddering present in LCD's.

First, I can't find anything that confirms that the LNXXA650 can do this (or for that matter the 750, 850), so does it in fact do this? It's awfully conspicuous that this information isn't easy to find...

Second, even if it does do this, how could I actually take advantage of this?

I currently have Comcast, and the cable box outputs at 60Hz, so when I'm watching a movie broadcast in HD, it's already gone through the 3:2 pulldown so it can be output at 60Hz, right? So in that case, there's nothing the LCD can do, because even if it did support 5:5 pulldown, it needs a source that's outputting at 24fps/hz, correct?

Does any Blu-ray player, or DVD player, or really anything, support outputting content at 24fps/hz? And, if there is, can someone confirm that that's the only way the LCD could take advantage of 5:5 pulldown (if it indeed did support it)?

Yes, you're correct, you'd need a source film encoded in 24fps , i.e. BluRay, to take advantage of 5:5. As far as getting the set to do this, I think the Samsung Entertainment Cinema mode will put it in 5:5 conversion.

As far as 3:2 on 60hz, that could technically be removed, but the TV would need the ability to correctly process the signal.

See here for more reverse telecine

Basically properly reconstruct the frames, buffer them and show them 2:2, 3:3, 5:5 ect...

Funny thing is Pioneer has been doing this with 72hz 3:3, but the execution hasn't been very good.

Regards,

Mike
post #3 of 6
Thread Starter 
Thanks for the reply PanamaMike,

After I wrote the thread-starter, I decided to dig into the settings of my new Samsung BD-P1500 Blu-ray player that I just got when I bought my Samsung LN46A650 LCD, and there is an option to output at 24hz. I switched it on and the LCD display information shows 1920x1080P @ 24hz. So now the only question is whether the LCD is actually doing 5:5 pulldown with that source....

Interesting to read about reverse telecine, actually that whole wiki page is full of valuable info, but I'm still confused as to how this work with a Comcast cable box as a source. Live events like sports do are not shot in 24 fps, correct? For some reason I thought they were shot at 30fps, so no reverse telecine would be needed to display sporting content accurately, as 120hz or 60hz can be divided evenly by 30 using 2:2 or 4:4 pulldown. So the TV would need to determine on-the-fly when to use reverse telecine, and when not to, correct?

Man, I'm making a lot of assumptions without possessing a whole lot of knowledge the subject. Hopefully you experts out there can clear this up for me.
post #4 of 6
post #5 of 6
Quote:
Originally Posted by dsh1998 View Post

Thanks for the reply PanamaMike,
So now the only question is whether the LCD is actually doing 5:5 pulldown with that source....

Interesting to read about reverse telecine, actually that whole wiki page is full of valuable info, but I'm still confused as to how this work with a Comcast cable box as a source. Live events like sports do are not shot in 24 fps, correct? For some reason I thought they were shot at 30fps, so no reverse telecine would be needed to display sporting content accurately, as 120hz or 60hz can be divided evenly by 30 using 2:2 or 4:4 pulldown. So the TV would need to determine on-the-fly when to use reverse telecine, and when not to, correct?..

For question #1, I'd say yes, I don't have this set, but I'd bet it does 5:5, I'd be surprised if the set tried to output 24hz since it would be a flickering mess.

question #2 You are correct, live events and other, "video" sources filmed at 30 fps don't need the reverse telecine. This is one of the reasons video looks different from film, due to the slightly higher frame rate and absence of 3:2 cadence judder. The TV electronics have to be smart enough to do the reverse telecine. Some TV's don't do this well and as a result produces unwanted video artifacts. Processing can be an issue, the other one that causes issues is deinterlacing that the TV has to do for interlaced sources such as Cable. However, reverse telecine is the biggest issues since many sets don't address it properly.
post #6 of 6
Thread Starter 
Thanks eugovector, things did look smoother when I outputted my Blu-ray at 24hz, but it's good to get confirmation. I was just unsure whether it was doing 5:5 or 3:2 doubled, which is what I understand early (cheaper?) 120hz LCD's did with a 24hz source.

Getting back to reverse telecine...is it a fair statement to say that we're a long way off from having a cable box which outputs at 60hz as the source, and having a TV equipped with reverse telecine that's smart enough to know when it should use reverse telecine and when it shouldn't (i.e. don't do it for sports, but do it for movies)?

I could see DVD or Blu-ray players being able to this as they are dealing with fixed content from a single disc, but it sounds like it's asking too much for a TV to do reverse telecine on-the-fly from a source that may or not need it....or am I missing something?
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