Official JVC RS20/HD750 Owners Thread! - Page 127  

Well tonight I watched some more stuff on the RS20, projected in a small guest bedroom (where I'm testing it with various equipment), very light decor, projected fairly small (maybe 70 to 80 inches wide). I watched some of the original black and white Twilight Zone DVD, Terminator 2 Judgement Day DVD, and then The Incredibles DVD.

It was all fabulous. Motion seemed generally fine. And even with it being a very small cream-colored room, which clearly had an effect on the picture, it still looked incredible.
I've been going through the first season of the Twilight Zone with my son for weeks now on my Panasonic plasma but on the RS20 it was truly special. The dynamics of the image and the clarity blew me away. I remember how the Mitsubishi 7000 impressed me with the sharpness of SD DVDs, looking almost HD-like on a similar sized screen. I got much the same feeling from the RS20, although in a less digital way.

The Terminator JD looked spectacular too, showing off the projector's dynamics especially in the night scenes. But it was The Incredibles that blew me away most, having seen it billions of times, on my plasma and as a test DVD I dragged around to countless displays (projectors included) over the years. On my RS20 it just looked like a completely different movie. There was fabulous depth and vividness to the image, but what probably impressed me the most was just the sheer amount of nuance and detail I saw. Everything from the hair, the faces, the clothes, the backgrounds and the way nothing seems to get lost on the RS20 - deep, dark shadows, yet everything is visible in shadows. There's a shot with Mrs. Incredible in her home and there's a 60's style abstract painting on the wall behind her. It looked so much like an authentic oil painting, not cartoonized but reach-in-and-touch-it natural. I've never found more appreciation for the detail and production design as I had seeing it tonight.

The RS20 just showing me so much more than I'm used to seeing, shot after shot. It's amazing how much more the realism, clarity and detail helped all the "acting" nuances come out in the Characters too. And the night scenes with Mr. and Mrs. Incredible riding the mono-rail into the mountain hideway were so deep and moody, and so rich with detail it was a marvel.

It's funny because, as I mentioned, last night I was at my friend's house watching a bit of LOTR Return Of The King on his old Panasonic AE700 projector/Greyhawk screen. It really looked terrific, despite not having the deepest blacks and I was thinking "Man, this is so nice I almost wonder why I'm bothering spending so much more." Well, tonight put that question to bed. I think I'm really going to appreciate what this projector brings to movie-watching!

Hi Rich,
Once again thanks for all your interesting contributions.
I would also like to suggest that you seriously consider (if you have not already) an anamorphic lens and cinemascope format screen for your new HT. It will take your RS-20 up to another new level of enjoyment.

I'm not disputing you are seeing some difference, but it certainly isn't for the reason you said. The motion on Blu-ray isn't slower than the motion on DirectTV, so the difference you saw isn't because "the JVC is "slower" than the Epson, and the lag manifests itself though edge doubling or color pulsing (subtle, but evident)", which is what you claimed. Nevertheless, you claim to know that "the JVC is "slower" than the Epson, and the lag manifests itself though edge doubling or color pulsing ..."? So what evidence do you have to prove that?

Agreed.

I watched Quantum of Solace over the weekend and most of it looked spectacular. However, I found myself distracted by some of the close-combat type scenes because the camera kept moving around. I am referring to the scene where Bond is fighting the man who shot M. I think it was filmed with a hand held camera and I honestly could not tell what was going in in that scene because it was so jerky. I think this was a source issue and I would have noticed it on any projector.

Evidence? I am on trial?...

I'm not an engineer, so I can't tell you why. I can tell you what is occurring, and since I have another (brand and technology) projector to run simultaneously, I can tell you it is not content or AVR-VP related. It is characteristic of the projector. Along with the easy to see visual evidence, I gave my best guess as to why, as explained to me by Jeff Meier (UMR here on AVS). Slower analog panels, different processing. Others here have posted seeing similar things.

Here's another "guess." Perhaps most film content masks the motion issue for me, given the varied nature of the material's composition, color, and motion (there is relatively little fast panning in film). Perhaps its also related to the native frame rate in film vs video content.

Alternatively, brighter, starker images, such as an ice hockey game, with lots of fast horizontal panning, more consistently reveals the hard edges where some of this artifacting can occur. This artifacting also occurs when playing PS3 or XBOX on the JVC, and does not the Epson.

I understand that motion is not slower on Blu Ray, but I was speculating as to the difference in a 24p signal vs a 60i signal as potentially being a reason.

Where do you think the root of the issue is?

Yes Rich ... thanks for more insight into your new RS20. B&W films (& Twilight Zone) look spectacular on the RS20 due to the superb shading (vs RS1). I'm anxious for BD of T2JD due next month. For Sci-fi/Horror fans the RS20 (warts and all) has no peers w/ its inky deep black level. I'm still jarred every time w/ fade to blacks, thinking the projector has suddenly lost power. Anxious for greg R's thoughts/comments/review.

I think the RS's have digital panels.

I agree that processing (including deinterlacing) plays a role here.

The key is to first identify what you are seeing. SAH has a certain look. 24p judder also has a certain look. I assume that everything that is not either of these but not shown on another projector is processing-related.

I think that the "edge doubling" you describe is SAH (not really how I would describe it but I can see why someone would). I have never seen any "color pulsing."

I suggest that you take the BEST source possible that you can find that has a fast horizontal pan. Then you will see the best possible panning that the RS20 is capable of. Following that, if you see motion that does not look as good, something else is at work, whether it be the source or processing or perhaps something else.

Interesting, because I see something that could be described similarly on my DLP....

JVC uses a digital back plane on their latest LCoS chips. The device has around 50 subframes under which 24 bit planes can be theoretically established. Their current consumer chips are configured to use 10 bit, 1024 addressable states. Here is a white paper discussing the technology, page 5 describes the digital back plane.

DLPs also suffer from SAH.

Not necessarily. We are talking about M-O-T-I-O-N, which is an illusion created by rapidly flashing still images.

A particular frame may be perfectly in focus when paused, but you only get to see a maximum of 60 frames per second (you may not get that many depending on the source). Showing 60 frames per second may not be enough frames to really show the motion without introducing judder, which can be seen as blur. This is where frame interpolation comes in. It creates new frames, and when shown at 120 frames per second, motion can look more natural.

Movies at 24p, even the best quality movies, are really very limited when it comes to motion because 24 frames per second is not really that many frames.

Try this test: Watch a 24p scene with rapid movement. Time 1 second (or just count to 1). Examine how much motion took place in that 1 second and think that it all had to be captured in a mere 24 pictures! Once second will then seem like a long time.

This is all part of film and video. Like the stage coach wheels appearing to rotate backwards or people seeing RBE on DLP. Real life is analog and digital displays are discrete. It's like a watch/clock with a sweep secondhand and one with a discrete secondhand that jumps from second to second. Fixed pixel displays are no longer interlaced or progressive. They simply flash an entire frame at one time. Just as you cannot have a smooth diagonal line (it is segmented with pixels and looks like a stair), you cannot have analog smooth transitions from one film frame to another, especially if it never existed.

This was quite evident on movie credits on Showtime where they were scrolling so fast it was impossible to read..... the letters were blurred scrolling and sharp when paused..... just the nature of digital image reproduction.

Just trying to extract reality from hyperbole. If it's the same sort of SAH I see on my DLP, I think I'd be extatic with it. I'm just trying my best to avoid ending up getting something and then finding a "showstopping" flaw.

I thought I would also post this here for those that don't regularly look at the Firmware thread. The DLA-HD750/RS20 firmware update is now available. You can download it from:

JVC DLA-HD750/RS20 Update

Download and run the installer. Make you you read the instructions carefully.

HI all,
Am I correct that this applies to UK owners only ?

JVC US just said (on phone) there are no known CMS issues with the RS20 and the UK firmware does not apply to the US versions and should not be applied.

I found it strange that they also said a firmware update would have no effect on a calibration, even changes to CMS.
This statement 'must' be false in cases, like this, where the CMS is being changed..

Can someone please set me straight ?

Thanks !
-BB

BB -

I don't know but good question.

You might want to post here:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1142828

...as those interested might not be monitoring all the RS20 threads.

Mike

When you apply the update you have to specify HD750 or RS20. JVC US probably don't want to get involved as failed updates would cost them. We do know however that the CMS is broken on the RS20's and that this update fixes it (or makes a huge improvement at least).

Well, I think I've done all the testing I need at this point so my RS20 has to go back into it's box until my HT reno is completed. But last night I ran through a bunch of my trusty DVD titles which I've used to evaluate many displays over the years (I'm saving Blu Ray/HD DVD titles for when I have my projection room completed). Over and over I was struck by how the RS20 seemed to transform the images from how I've experienced them previously. The clarity was excellent even for DVD (albeit at a small image size), but along with the beautiful contrast the sheer amount of image richness and image detail it brings out just astonishes me. And I'm not necessarily talking about sharpness, which is excellent even on the DVD titles. I'm talking about how the contrast abilities, the color range and the fantastic shadow detail bring out way more nuances in the image than what I'm used to. The Incredibles home looks like I could walk in and inhabit it. The variation in the skin and scales of the Dinosaurs in Jurrasic Park 1 and 3 is almost HD-like. And even just shots of a jungle that I've seen plenty of times before are so different because the RS20's ability to give nuance and variation within the smallest shadows separating trees and leaves, and the ability to bring out the finest details and color variations, make even a swath of green jungle look so much more varied, palpable and realistic.

And that's just projected on a beige-colored wall. I can't wait to get it on my Stewart ST-130 screen.

BTW, because image noise really bothers me (not film grain necessarily which I'm fine with, but exaggerated grain/digital noise), and because there had been reports of the RS20 exaggerating source image noise, I invested in the Denon 602ci video processor, vs a cheaper VP. The Denon got some high marks for it's excellent yet unobtrusive noise removal feature. Last night I tested it out on an old Twilight Zone DVD which had tons of exaggerated film grain/digital noise...to the point of distraction on the big screen. The Denon did a superb job, allowing me to dial down the noise of the image without any perceptible loss of detail, smudging etc.

That said, I've actually been amazed how noise-free the RS20 has been with most source material. Even some of my most challenging DVDs (crappy transfers with image noise/poor compression) have looked smooth and serene on the RS20. So it looks like I'll be using the Denon DNR less than I thought, perhaps. But I'm still happy I bought it given how well it works and that "just in case" comfort knowing it's available.

Over 'n out.

Rich-
Thank you for your detailed report of what the RS-20 is capable of. You do a great job of getting the 'ol pulse pounding. I appreciate the stats and figures on this unit (very important) but to me, nothing is as encouraging as a report giving detail of picture quality ! And off of a beige-colored wall, nonetheless !
Again, great job !

Rich hurry up and get that theater completed. You will be mad when the rs-30 comes out and your 20 is still boxed up.

Yeah, that's pretty much exactly what I worried about in this project.
But Cedia is in September right? And projectors announced at Cedia don't really become available until Christmas or after so I have a while to enjoy this thing without envy. (I hope).

How tuff is it to set up a JVC RS-750 with a 96" diag. Stewart, Black Hawk with a short throw of 11' 3"? The specs say it can be done, not certain of the quality of picture I'm going get at my viewing distance? The guy I'm buying it from offers no set up! And no real experience in the land of projection! I have had a 50" plasma and want more and then some. I'm not sure what question to even ask. My seating position is my bed, aprx. 8ft. from the screen. At 8ft., am I going to see to much detail, or an over saturate screen? Any hands on experience with short throw?

Setup is simple. Once you have your projector mounted or sitting on whatever you are using, you use the 3 LENS options (zoom, focus, shift) - a grid displays and you zoom the size bigger or smaller, then shift the image up/down/left/right.. then zoom again.. until the grid edges match up with the edges of your screen. Then you focus.

11'3" will work for 96" screen, per the manual.

But, I don't know if you will be able to watch it at only 8'.
You will have to decide.. and zoom the image smaller if you can't handle it and cannot move back.

Again.. only you can decide..

I was sitting 12' from my 100".. felt it was ok, but too close.
So I am sitting 14' now.
12 was ok and I could live with it.. but for me, 14 is better.

Here is a distance guide you can play with.. for what it's worth..
http://myhometheater.homestead.com/v...alculator.html

I am a projector newb also.. so you need to tinker and see what works for you.

-BB

I am a proud owner and really love my Sony G90 CRT projector used in a 1080p mode. It looks great on a 100" Stewart screen even with 10k+ hrs on the tubes. However, my wife and I are getting tired of looking at a Volkswagon hanging in the rafters. I've read a lot on the forums and everyone raves about the RS20/HD750, but my question is will it be a step up, down, or lateral from the G90.

The LCD sets we have purchased, including high end Sony Bravia to Vizio all look "digital" at some point and handle motion poorly.

I have all the set-up toys to do the job, I just don't want to feel as I have taken a step down.

Comments, please.

John

I have an RS-20 that is 14.5' from an 88" screen with a gain of 1.4. My seating position is 12' from the screen. I could have gone a little bigger, but I preferred the extra brightness of a smaller image. Your throw distance isn't a problem, in fact as long as you stay within the projectors throw range the closer you place it the more light output you get. The thing you have to be concerned about isn't detail or saturation, it's whether or not a 96" image will be too overpowering FOR YOU at 8'. It would for me, but this is a personal choice. Couldn't you go to a dealer who has a system set up where you could sit that close and see for yourself? If so, don't rely on your initial impression. Give yourself some time to adjust to it. It may seem to be overkill at first, but it is amazing how quickly one can adapt to a big image. I went from a 61" to 88". An increase in image size of 117%. Your proposed system would be nearly four times as big as your 50" set! I adjusted very quickly to the bigger image. It doesn't look so huge now.

Another item to consider is the vertical and horizontal placement of the projector relative to the screen. You can only place it so high or so low relative to the screen. The same for the horizontal. I suggest you download the owners manuel and read up on this part. If I remember correctly, the shorter the throw distance is makes your vertical placement option a bit more narrow. Study the owners manuel carefully and do the math. Or in this case the geometry. I only mention this as throw distance is only part of the equation.

On 4/22/09 UMR calibrated my new RS-20. While I had found some settings here on AVS that resulted in an acceptable image, I wasn't happy with my black level and resulting contrast ratio. My CMS settings resulted in reasonably good color, but somehow they blew the on/off contrast ratio all to hell. UMR improved the color and raised the contrast ratio from 5000:1 to 25000:1! I don't understand how the CMS settings impact the contrast ratio, but I really don't need too. Even my wife, who threatened to beat the both of us while Jeff(UMR) was here, now admits the calibration was money well spent.

Many thanks to UMR and to all you other owners out there that steered me to this projector. It is really cool to have a great big image that can go very bright or very dark when called upon.


p.s. I might suggest you look at www.projectorcentral.com. I learned alot there.

Did he do the firmware update before the calibration? I am going to get Jeff out here in Sept I believe to do mine.

It wasn't available yet. However, UMR has calibrated a fair number of these projectors and actually owns one himself. Reading between the lines, I think he's got his own technique down so well that he gets incredible results even with the old firmware.

If the new firmware allows him to get even better results, well I'm sure he'll tell us when the time comes.

I upgraded mine and recalibrated it with the new firmware.

It was an improvement in color and light output. I was able to drop my iris from 7 to 12 after the new firmware. The new CMS is interesting. It tends to prevent users from totally hosing the display color performance even with wildly wrong settings.

For RS20 owners who have no calibration experience and use canned modes such as Stage, Natural, THX, would there be a noticeable difference in any way? Brightness, color accuracy, overall image quality?

No idea. Uncalibrated or poorly calibrated projectors are too variable to say what you would get.