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Best sub 400 Receiver

post #1 of 1230
12/5/08 at 11:01am
Thread Starter 
I am looking for a receiver for 90% movies/hdtv and 10% gaming. I was initially set on the Onkyo 606 but through reading through the forums it appears that it has mixed reviews and maybe some issues and also is not great at upconversion. I will connect a Directv Hddvr, xbox360, blu-ray in the near future. Speakers will probably be in the range of Polk monitor 50's with undertermined surrounds a cs1 center and sub still to be determined. Room is approximatly 13x11. Less than $400 budget and would like to save a little on receiver if it will get job done to allocate towards the speakers. Thanks for the help guys.
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post #2 of 1230
12/5/08 at 11:02am
Marantz 4001 is a great budget receiver.
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post #3 of 1230
12/5/08 at 11:04am
Denon AVR 888 from Amazon
Yamaha RX-V663
Harman Kardon AVR 254
Marantz models from accessories4less (linked above)
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post #4 of 1230
12/5/08 at 11:53am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by batpig View Post

Denon AVR 888 from Amazon
Yamaha RX-V663
Harman Kardon AVR 254
Marantz models from accessories4less (linked above)

I like the HK AVR 254. I wasnt even considering HK cause i didnt know they had caught up to the rest of the field. Is the new line of HK's any good?

As far as the Denon goes. I like Denon cause they always have a good reputation but I was looking at the stats and realized that it doesnt decode any of the new lossless audio. Since I am getting a Blu-ray eventually will this not matter and I will still be able to receive and play loss less audio?
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post #5 of 1230
12/5/08 at 12:03pm
Before the latest firmware upgrade, the HK 254 had issues. But I was told the latest firmware has fixed annoying bugs. The sound quality as usual is superb.
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post #6 of 1230
12/5/08 at 12:06pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bommai View Post

Before the latest firmware upgrade, the HK 254 had issues. But I was told the latest firmware has fixed annoying bugs. The sound quality as usual is superb.

I know they used to have an awesome reputation but kind of fell behind the crowd and I am glad to hear they are doing better. I also like how you can upgrade the firmware. Can most new receivers do this? Also is it ipod ready or do I have to buy a dock or adapter?
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post #7 of 1230
12/5/08 at 12:22pm
Thread Starter 
I really like the features and the reputaion of the tx-sr606 though. Just heard a lot of stuff back and forth on the forums about whether its any good or not.
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post #8 of 1230
12/5/08 at 1:24pm
Stay away from the 606. I just returned it today. Buzz/hum issue with any unit pushing a hi-def signal through HDMI. It wasn't a ground loop either. I tried everything and could only lessen the buzz.

Anyway, here's some suggestions. All of them have 3 HDMI inputs which you'll need 3 for the listed components, HDMI is repeating (audio and video passthrough), and can play the hi-def codecs (DD True HD/DTS HD)...

Sony STRDG820 $300
HK AVR 254 $379
Pioneer 1018 $434
Denon 1909 $600

All of the prices are from Amazon. You may be able to purchase elsewhere for less expensive, or used.
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post #9 of 1230
12/5/08 at 5:16pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by tyreal78 View Post

Stay away from the 606. I just returned it today. Buzz/hum issue with any unit pushing a hi-def signal through HDMI. It wasn't a ground loop either. I tried everything and could only lessen the buzz.

Anyway, here's some suggestions. All of them have 3 HDMI inputs which you'll need 3 for the listed components, HDMI is repeating (audio and video passthrough), and can play the hi-def codecs (DD True HD/DTS HD)...

Sony STRDG820 $300
HK AVR 254 $379
Pioneer 1018 $434
Denon 1909 $600

All of the prices are from Amazon. You may be able to purchase elsewhere for less expensive, or used.

Good to know. I do like the HK. I like the pioneer also but it is out of my price range.
Does anyone know what upconversion the HK does?
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post #10 of 1230
12/6/08 at 9:02am
If I understand correctlythe Onkyo 606 only upscales to 1080i while the denon avr 888 upscales to 1080p. If you use a ps3 than it sounds like the audio is a moot point since the ps3 decodes the audio. Is this correct or am I missing something. The big river has the denon 888 pretty cheap right now. Competitive with the Harmon Kardon 254 and onkyo 606
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post #11 of 1230
12/6/08 at 10:34am
Harman Audio on ebay has been selling the AVR 347 for around $225 and less with free shipping. They seem to be flooding the auctions lately with them. Specs are similar to the 254. I don't own either, having owned an AVR 520 for some 8 years now and quite happy with it.

http://stores.ebay.com/Harman-Audio
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post #12 of 1230
12/6/08 at 10:46am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Knucklehead90 View Post

Harman Audio on ebay has been selling the AVR 347 for around $225 and less with free shipping. They seem to be flooding the auctions lately with them. Specs are similar to the 254. I don't own either, having owned an AVR 520 for some 8 years now and quite happy with it.

http://stores.ebay.com/Harman-Audio

Thanks for the link. Just remember that they are remanufactored. Not sure if that matters to anybody else just thought it was worth mentoning. Still an awesome price though.
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post #13 of 1230
12/6/08 at 10:47am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by peloton View Post

If I understand correctlythe Onkyo 606 only upscales to 1080i while the denon avr 888 upscales to 1080p. If you use a ps3 than it sounds like the audio is a moot point since the ps3 decodes the audio. Is this correct or am I missing something. The big river has the denon 888 pretty cheap right now. Competitive with the Harmon Kardon 254 and onkyo 606

I will have to look into that. Is the denon last years model? What is big river?
I dont use a ps3 so im not sure about the ps3 stuff.
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post #14 of 1230
12/6/08 at 10:52am
Quote:
Originally Posted by okfireman View Post

Thanks for the link. Just remember that they are remanufactored. Not sure if that matters to anybody else just thought it was worth mentoning. Still an awesome price though.

It does come with the same warranty as a new one. 5 years IIRC. For less than half what they cost new, yeah, not a bad buy.

I'm considering one to replace my aging HK AVR520. Its 8 years old but still going strong and I don''t find I need the HDMI hookups. The only HDMI device I have is the HD satellite receiver into my 42" LCD. I use optical out of the satellite receiver to the 520.

I'll be hooking up an Emotiva UPA-7 to it when it gets here on Monday.

Good luck on your search.
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post #15 of 1230
12/6/08 at 10:58am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Knucklehead90 View Post

It does come with the same warranty as a new one. 5 years IIRC. For less than half what they cost new, yeah, not a bad buy.

I'm considering one to replace my aging HK AVR520. Its 8 years old but still going strong and I don''t find I need the HDMI hookups. The only HDMI device I have is the HD satellite receiver into my 42" LCD. I use optical out of the satellite receiver to the 520.

I'll be hooking up an Emotiva UPA-7 to it when it gets here on Monday.

Good luck on your search.

It does look like a pretty nice receiver. I am not sure how good there reconditioned stuff is, but I have heard that there stuff is pretty reliable.
Keep in mind that you may not need HDMI now but more and more stuff will become HDMI in the future so you should incorporate a receiver with at least some HDMI so you will be more future proof in your receiver. This will help ensure that you dont need to buy a new receiver in 5 years. Good luck.
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post #16 of 1230
12/6/08 at 11:00am
Thread Starter 
Does anyone have any experience with the Denon avr-888. I like the fact that it upscales to 1080p instead of 1080i. The only downfall i have seen so far is that it doesnt decode any of the new lossless audio. I plan on getting a blu-ray player that does this anyways but have heard that it is better if you receiver does the decoding for you. Anyone have any insight on this matter or the Denon 888?
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post #17 of 1230
12/6/08 at 12:55pm
there is tons of insight on both the 888/2308 and decoding vs pcm. please read up in the FAQ's, and use the search function as there is a whole bunch of discussion on the 888 and 2308, including the dedicated 2308/888 thread:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=944567
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post #18 of 1230
12/6/08 at 11:01pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by batpig View Post

there is tons of insight on both the 888/2308 and decoding vs pcm. please read up in the FAQ's, and use the search function as there is a whole bunch of discussion on the 888 and 2308, including the dedicated 2308/888 thread:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=944567

Ok I will take a look at that. There is so much material in the 888 forum it is taking awhile to get through the 100's of pages. I have looked through the PCM vs decoding thread and need to look back at it to anwser some of my questions.
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post #19 of 1230
12/6/08 at 11:04pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by okfireman View Post

The only downfall i have seen so far is that it doesnt decode any of the new lossless audio. I plan on getting a blu-ray player that does this anyways but have heard that it is better if you receiver does the decoding for you. Anyone have any insight on this matter or the Denon 888?

Unless there are confirmed undesirable conversions when unzipped @ the player (which there are not, afaik), the is absolutely NO reason for the sound to be superior @ the receivers end.

So, I wouldn't consider it a downfall, considering your player decodes.
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post #20 of 1230
12/6/08 at 11:37pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by gunbunnysoulja View Post

Unless there are confirmed undesirable conversions when unzipped @ the player (which there are not, afaik), the is absolutely NO reason for the sound to be superior @ the receivers end.

So, I wouldn't consider it a downfall, considering your player decodes.

thanks for the insight. this is what I figured just wanted conformation since I had read a couple people stating this. Thanks for the help.
So would this give the denon-888 the upper hand over the onkyo 606 since it can upconvert to 1080p if I am using the dvd player for the decoding?
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post #21 of 1230
12/6/08 at 11:41pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by okfireman View Post

thanks for the insight. this is what I figured just wanted conformation since I had read a couple people stating this. Thanks for the help.
So would this give the denon-888 the upper hand over the onkyo 606 since it can upconvert to 1080p if I am using the dvd player for the decoding?

What analog sources (non-HDMI) would you be connecting that could benefit from a receiver scaling to 1080p?

The TV currently scales all resolutions to it's native resolution. Unless there is something inferior with it's current scaling/de-interlacing capabilities, there isn't a reason to worry about analog-HDMI scaling.

Alot of lower priced receivers that scale don't utilize the best scaling/de-interlacing methods anyways. This is why dedicated VP's cost alot of money. You get what you pay for, in this case.

Even cheap Walmart DVD players are now offering 1080p scaling... All 1080p scalers are not created equal.
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post #22 of 1230
12/7/08 at 12:43am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by gunbunnysoulja View Post

What analog sources (non-HDMI) would you be connecting that could benefit from a receiver scaling to 1080p?

The TV currently scales all resolutions to it's native resolution. Unless there is something inferior with it's current scaling/de-interlacing capabilities, there isn't a reason to worry about analog-HDMI scaling.

Alot of lower priced receivers that scale don't utilize the best scaling/de-interlacing methods anyways. This is why dedicated VP's cost alot of money. You get what you pay for, in this case.

Even cheap Walmart DVD players are now offering 1080p scaling... All 1080p scalers are not created equal.

I would connect an xbox360 via component and would like it if it upscalled to 1080p. Although it may already do this not for sure. But I would like my Directv H20 connected via hdmi to upscale the standard definintion tv content that I want upscalled to 1080p if at all possible as well as standard definition dvd's upconverted to 1080p.
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post #23 of 1230
12/7/08 at 4:16am
Quote:
Originally Posted by okfireman View Post

I would connect an xbox360 via component and would like it if it upscalled to 1080p. Although it may already do this not for sure. But I would like my Directv H20 connected via hdmi to upscale the standard definintion tv content that I want upscalled to 1080p if at all possible as well as standard definition dvd's upconverted to 1080p.

AFAIK, you won't be able to scale the HDMI signals from the 606. It does analog to HDMI scaling/transcoding.

The XBox 360 can output 1080p over component via internal scaling. I am not sure if the 606 can accept 1080p over component when transcoding over HDMI. If not, I believe it can accept 1080i and de-interlace, and then transcode.

Are you not happy with the current scaling taking place (TV)?
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post #24 of 1230
12/7/08 at 10:06am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by gunbunnysoulja View Post

AFAIK, you won't be able to scale the HDMI signals from the 606. It does analog to HDMI scaling/transcoding.

The XBox 360 can output 1080p over component via internal scaling. I am not sure if the 606 can accept 1080p over component when transcoding over HDMI. If not, I believe it can accept 1080i and de-interlace, and then transcode.

Are you not happy with the current scaling taking place (TV)?

Yes I am happy with my xbox 360 but would like better picture for some of my standard definition tv.
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post #25 of 1230
12/7/08 at 10:38am
Quote:
Originally Posted by gunbunnysoulja View Post

What analog sources (non-HDMI) would you be connecting that could benefit from a receiver scaling to 1080p?

The TV currently scales all resolutions to it's native resolution. Unless there is something inferior with it's current scaling/de-interlacing capabilities, there isn't a reason to worry about analog-HDMI scaling.

Alot of lower priced receivers that scale don't utilize the best scaling/de-interlacing methods anyways. This is why dedicated VP's cost alot of money. You get what you pay for, in this case.

Even cheap Walmart DVD players are now offering 1080p scaling... All 1080p scalers are not created equal.

I will jump in here too. I am researching a sub $400 receiver too. If I have comcast cable (1080i) max resolution. Do my televisions upscale the video signal? pioneer Kuro and samsung Lnt5271? Inwas thinking of the denon 888 over the others because of the upscaling. I thought I needed it to upscale the comcast signal over hdmi.
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post #26 of 1230
12/7/08 at 10:53am
Quote:
Originally Posted by peloton View Post

I will jump in here too. I am researching a sub $400 receiver too. If I have comcast cable (1080i) max resolution. Do my televisions upscale the video signal? pioneer Kuro and samsung Lnt5271? Inwas thinking of the denon 888 over the others because of the upscaling. I thought I needed it to upscale the comcast signal over hdmi.

If you output 1080i, the only processing taking place is de-interlacing, not scaling. Find out if your tv de-interlaces correctly.

I don't believe the Denon 888 scales HDMI signals. It does Analog to HDMI scaling via DCDi FLi2310. That means it accepts an analog signal (such as Component), scales the image, and transcodes over HDMI.
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post #27 of 1230
12/7/08 at 11:28am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by gunbunnysoulja View Post

If you output 1080i, the only processing taking place is de-interlacing, not scaling. Find out if your tv de-interlaces correctly.

I don't believe the Denon 888 scales HDMI signals. It does Analog to HDMI scaling via DCDi FLi2310. That means it accepts an analog signal (such as Component), scales the image, and transcodes over HDMI.

Where should I go about learning about de-interlacing? I am confused on what this is.
So are you saying that the Denon 888 will be fine. I have a nice 42in sharp aquas that is about 1 year old. It was top of the line and was highly recommended by most reviewers. I will try and find the product number.
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post #28 of 1230
12/7/08 at 3:25pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by okfireman View Post

Where should I go about learning about de-interlacing? I am confused on what this is.
So are you saying that the Denon 888 will be fine. I have a nice 42in sharp aquas that is about 1 year old. It was top of the line and was highly recommended by most reviewers. I will try and find the product number.

*
Try reading this article. It explains what interlacing is, and by deffinition what de-interlacing means for LCD and Plasma displays.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interlaced_video
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post #29 of 1230
12/7/08 at 3:50pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Knucklehead90 View Post

*
Try reading this article. It explains what interlacing is, and by deffinition what de-interlacing means for LCD and Plasma displays.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interlaced_video

thank you for the article I will look through it.
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post #30 of 1230
12/7/08 at 8:42pm
Thread Starter 
I think it is come down to Denon 888 and Harmon Kardon 254. I like the HK more cause it decodes everything I want so I would never have to worry about missing out on something. Anybody have any insight on these two and which they would prefer? Also from what it looks like to me the upscalling is the same for both does anyone disagree/
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