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Denon Pre-Pro and Amp

post #1 of 186
Thread Starter 
I am buying Sonus Faber Cremona M speakers (5.1), and am trying to decide if the Denon AVP-A1HDCI/POA-A1HDCI would be enough power for this system. I read that the 10x150 can be bridged (for at least the front towers). Is this advisable? Can I expect overheating issues or signal distortion with bridging? This system will be 70% movies and 30% music. Thanks.
post #2 of 186
Sensitivity rating for the Cremona M is decent. You'll be getting 300W at 4ohm with the Denon _before_ bridging. That's plenty of power for most installations. You may want to A/B the Denon amp unit with other options in the $7.5k MSRP range. If power and reliability is a concern then consider a stack of pro amps (some designs can be very musical).
post #3 of 186
IMO that's alot of money for a Denon which would open alot of other doors unless you are really in-love with it (which is fine) the power should be just fine it's current/reserve that is your biggest friend.
post #4 of 186
Quote:
Originally Posted by gmar2 View Post

I am buying Sonus Faber Cremona M speakers (5.1), and am trying to decide if the Denon AVP-A1HDCI/POA-A1HDCI would be enough power for this system. I read that the 10x150 can be bridged (for at least the front towers). Is this advisable? Can I expect overheating issues or signal distortion with bridging? This system will be 70% movies and 30% music. Thanks.

I wouldn't bridge, I'd bi-amp. Lack of power is almost never a problem. Most 'lack of power' issues are really speakers that distort easily at higher volumes and people tend to blame the wrong party.
post #5 of 186
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IMO that's alot of money for a Denon

Why? Would it then be ok if the name was krell, mcintosh, or theta?
post #6 of 186
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Why? Would it then be ok if the name was krell, mcintosh, or theta?

As you imply, some may look with disdain on the Denon units because they supply products in the mid and low end (unlike Krell, Halcro etc). OTOH, although the high end Denon separates are comparably priced to the "high end brands", IMO they are at least as good (probalbly better). I have purchased the Denon AVP-A1HDCI/POA-A1HDCI for what they are, not for the brand name. I think it was a good choice for a price is no object purchase, though I am open minded to others that have reason to have selected other products. Actually, I would be interested in the reasoning behind other purchases at the high end.
post #7 of 186
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alimentall View Post

I wouldn't bridge, I'd bi-amp. Lack of power is almost never a problem. Most 'lack of power' issues are really speakers that distort easily at higher volumes and people tend to blame the wrong party.

Can't bi-amp the cremonas.

To the OP, yes the Denon will be more than plenty capable for these speakers, even unbridged. Bridge it, and you'll be overkill. you've got the amp channels, so might as well bridge them, otherwise you're wasting 5 channels, and yes it would be advantageous to do so.
post #8 of 186
If that's the case, I'd just buy a normal high-end amp from a normal high-end company for that price. Same for the preamp probably. The Denon seems to be going for people with an inferiority complex. If you only need 5 channels, get a 5-channel amp. If you don't have 3 Blu-Ray players, 4 Satellites, 2 DVD players, 3 VCRs and 4 video games, I don't know how you'd use the overkill you'd be buying.
post #9 of 186
The OP described that the use would be 70% movies. At some point, one might decide that a 7.1 or 9.1 setup is desired. In that scenario, the Denon might prove to have been a better choice. In the interim, unless one would be spending less money on another product, I don't see a downside to the purchase of the Denon pair.
post #10 of 186
Thanks alimental for diagnosing my problem, I didn't realize I suffered from an inferiority complex! I use the POA in bridged mode for my three fronts(Salks) and the remaining 4 channels for the surrounds and rears. Works well for me. As for the AVP I enjoy ir more every day. I sold my D1 and sent back a Krell S1000 after a week. I don't regret the purchase but everyone's different some just won't go for the Denon. Remember, this is the "high end" area for AVS forum!!
post #11 of 186
Well, there's a difference between 'high-end' and 'mass market' design. We've been through this before in another thread, but IMO, the Denon stuff is still a mass market design, even though the price is high. It's a perfect match for B&W speakers. Or a Cadillac Escalade or a Rolex. It's a luxury mass market product. A truly high-end customer wouldn't need 75% of the circuitry in it and no more than 7 of the amp channels, so why bother putting in except to look cool? Hey, as long as it sells, they've achieved their design goals, but high-end design, it isn't.
post #12 of 186
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alimentall View Post

Well, there's a difference between 'high-end' and 'mass market' design. We've been through this before in another thread, but IMO, the Denon stuff is still a mass market design, even though the price is high. It's a perfect match for B&W speakers. Or a Cadillac Escalade or a Rolex. It's a luxury mass market product. A truly high-end customer wouldn't need 75% of the circuitry in it and no more than 7 of the amp channels, so why bother putting in except to look cool? Hey, as long as it sells, they've achieved their design goals, but high-end design, it isn't.

So hold on if they removed 3 amps you would be ok with it ? Not sure what you mean with mass market. In the netherlands there are 4 dealers who can sell it with 16M people doesn't sound mass market aim to me.

Daniel.
post #13 of 186
Quote:


As you imply, some may look with disdain on the Denon units because they supply products in the mid and low end (unlike Krell, Halcro etc). OTOH, although the high end Denon separates are comparably priced to the "high end brands", IMO they are at least as good (probalbly better). I have purchased the Denon AVP-A1HDCI/POA-A1HDCI for what they are, not for the brand name. I think it was a good choice for a price is no object purchase, though I am open minded to others that have reason to have selected other products. Actually, I would be interested in the reasoning behind other purchases at the high end.

That is the problem with a lot of people becuase they base everything on name rather then what the unit can do.

Quote:


If that's the case, I'd just buy a normal high-end amp from a normal high-end company for that price. Same for the preamp probably. The Denon seems to be going for people with an inferiority complex. If you only need 5 channels, get a 5-channel amp. If you don't have 3 Blu-Ray players, 4 Satellites, 2 DVD players, 3 VCRs and 4 video games, I don't know how you'd use the overkill you'd be buying.

If you don't need all that channels so be it but why would you look at another processor?

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I sold my D1 and sent back a Krell S1000 after a week.

Good choice, krell is horrible when it comes to processors.

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Well, there's a difference between 'high-end' and 'mass market' design.

Difference? How, I understand that receivers and other "mass market" processors measure and perform better then "high end" designs but what is your point?

Quote:


We've been through this before in another thread, but IMO, the Denon stuff is still a mass market design, even though the price is high. It's a perfect match for B&W speakers. Or a Cadillac Escalade or a Rolex. It's a luxury mass market product. A truly high-end customer wouldn't need 75% of the circuitry in it and no more than 7 of the amp channels, so why bother putting in except to look cool? Hey, as long as it sells, they've achieved their design goals, but high-end design, it isn't.

So what is a "high end" design?
post #14 of 186
I'm sure you are right John. I only responded to the OP because he happened to ask about units that I have, oh and by the way, units I have actually listened to!! But hell, what could I, a 63 year old physician who has been an amature musician since I was 15 possibly know about "high end" electronics. It's good to know that the the high end electronics that you enjoy won't have but 25% of the capability of the unit I have.
post #15 of 186
Quote:


A truly high-end customer wouldn't need 75% of the circuitry in it and no more than 7 of the amp channels, so why bother putting in except to look cool?

You have a propensity for saying a lot of dumb things, but this is a new high-water mark. Yes, a truly high-end customer does not want high-resolution audio. He does not want excellent video processing for legacy sources, DVDs and the like. He doesn't care about room correction, or the ability to have two sets of surround speakers for a dual-purpose room: HT and multichannel music which can be selected automatically, or triggered. Doesn't care about the ability to say, actively biamp the front channels in a 7.1 system for instance, something a 10-channel amp provides you, or say 7 channels plus three subwoofers, each of which can be EQed individually from the processor.

So if your concept of a "high-end customer" is someone who wants a rudimentary surround sound system that can't handle high-resolution audio, wants a feature-deprived and flexibility-deprived product that is overpriced, buggy, and lacking upgrades, room EQ, multizone capabilities, or the like, then sure you're probably right, the AVP is not the best product for Mr Analog 8-track who wants all the speakers to make noises all the time. that customer should overpay for an outdated product that is really just going to be used as a glorified analog pre-amp, and let the audio all be handled by the $299 Blu-ray player's DACs. Great plan. Fantastic.
post #16 of 186
Quote:


and let the audio all be handled by the $299 Blu-ray player's DACs.

Funny thing is that some of the blu ray players run better DAC's then the "high end" processors.
post #17 of 186
I just took a look at the measurements for the POA-AIHDCI on Audioholics, and they are very very good! In fact they are better than many of the much more expensive high end 2 channel amps out there.

Not particularly surprising when you consider that Denon has significantly more R&D resources than just about every high end audio company out there; i haven't checked but they probably have an awful lot of patents to make things hard on the competition as well.

At the end of the day, even Ferrari has publicly stated Toyota's engineering is much better than theirs (i think the statement was something like 'Toyota has more engineering on their assembly line than we have in our cars')...

The thing that makes Ferrari's great is not the best engineering, its a combination of clever choices and a no expense spared mentality...

A 7K+ Denon likely performs like a much more expensive low production product due to the following:
1. lower per unit fabrication cost
2. lower per unit parts cost
3. lower per unit marketing cost
4. lower per unit engineering cost
5. lower per unit administrative cost
6. lower per unit facilities cost
...
the list goes on and on

Has anyone seen a Toyota Supra Twin Turbo go head to head with ANY Ferrari? You are talking 4x the price before the Ferrari comes close to the performance of the Toyota.

Of course the Toyota doesn't have the sex appeal of the Ferrari, and if you want the absolute best performance and cost is no object... by all means, buy the Ferrari.

Then again, i don't own anything made by Denon or Ferrari (i do have a Toyota engine in one of my cars).
post #18 of 186
Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisWiggles View Post

You have a propensity for saying a lot of dumb things, but this is a new high-water mark. Yes, a truly high-end customer does not want high-resolution audio. He does not want excellent video processing for legacy sources, DVDs and the like. He doesn't care about room correction, or the ability to have two sets of surround speakers for a dual-purpose room: HT and multichannel music which can be selected automatically, or triggered. Doesn't care about the ability to say, actively biamp the front channels in a 7.1 system for instance, something a 10-channel amp provides you, or say 7 channels plus three subwoofers, each of which can be EQed individually from the processor.

Well, when did I say that? A $3000 NAD can do most of that and without all of the excess. Doesn't make it better, but the very definition of mass market is when you try to make the broadest appeal possible and you do that by throwing in the kitchen sink so you don't miss anybody. That being said, I'm a more strategic purchaser, I guess. I buy the features I need while avoiding paying for the ones I know I'll never use. Including multiple rears, biamped fronts, poorly thought out room correction, 30 unusable inputs, etc, etc.
Quote:



So if your concept of a "high-end customer" is someone who wants a rudimentary surround sound system that can't handle high-resolution audio, wants a feature-deprived and flexibility-deprived product that is overpriced, buggy, and lacking upgrades, room EQ, multizone capabilities, or the like, then sure you're probably right, the AVP is not the best product for Mr Analog 8-track who wants all the speakers to make noises all the time. that customer should overpay for an outdated product that is really just going to be used as a glorified analog pre-amp, and let the audio all be handled by the $299 Blu-ray player's DACs. Great plan. Fantastic.

Speaking of dumb things, you apparently don't understand my comment at all.
post #19 of 186
Quote:
Originally Posted by nethomas View Post

I'm sure you are right John. I only responded to the OP because he happened to ask about units that I have, oh and by the way, units I have actually listened to!! But hell, what could I, a 63 year old physician who has been an amature musician since I was 15 possibly know about "high end" electronics. It's good to know that the the high end electronics that you enjoy won't have but 25% of the capability of the unit I have.

Yeah, but I have to deal with that pesky, upgradable, modular hardware design so I will feel the need to keep it for 10 or 20 years and the depressing feeling of having not paid nearly as much. It's also depressing not having so many unused connections on the back. The Denon is like ordering four dinners at a restaurant and throwing out three of them. How cool is that........
post #20 of 186
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alimentall View Post

Yeah, but I have to deal with that pesky, upgradable, modular hardware design so I will feel the need to keep it for 10 or 20 years and the depressing feeling of having not paid nearly as much. It's also depressing not having so many unused connections on the back. The Denon is like ordering four dinners at a restaurant and throwing out three of them. How cool is that........

It seems most pre/pro's at the moment don't even provide one good solid full diner. I do agree that for me they could have cut down on the legacy connections on the avp. But again you add new things. So how many of these 10 year old pre/pro's have update boards out for the new formats/hdmi/scaler ? For the record all flagship denon models had hardware updates (atleast 1) many highend/modular units didn't even release just one.

Daniel.
post #21 of 186
Quote:
Originally Posted by nethomas View Post

But hell, what could I, a 63 year old physician who has been an amature musician since I was 15 possibly know about "high end" electronics.

That all depends on what instrument you play. Keyboardists have an ear for audio. Guitarists don't, they accept distortion without issue. And if you're a drummer, well, we all know you play to get the chicks.
post #22 of 186
Meridian and Theta are probably the only companies with product sophisticated enough to go from no HDMI to full HDMI. NAD's new units have 5 upgradable card slots with 4 new cards already announced, one of which is the Gennum VXP scaling option. I mean, sure, the Denon is probably the most overkill you can buy in a single box. But if you know what you want and know what you don't, you can get an excellent preamp/amp combination that is better suited to you for half the price. And, in the case of the NADs, far more upgradability. Personally, even the NADs are overkill to me as they still serve an extra dinner for which I'm not hungry.

But it is still true that people buy the most features for the money and so overkill will continue unabated.
post #23 of 186
Quote:
Originally Posted by Curt Palme View Post

And if you're a drummer, well, we all know you play to get the chicks.

Worked for me "Are you a musician?" "No, I'm a drummer"
post #24 of 186
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Meridian and Theta are probably the only companies with product sophisticated enough to go from no HDMI to full HDMI.

If you think so, oh wait they still do not have HDMI.

Quote:


Well, when did I say that? A $3000 NAD can do most of that and without all of the excess. Doesn't make it better, but the very definition of mass market is when you try to make the broadest appeal possible and you do that by throwing in the kitchen sink so you don't miss anybody. That being said, I'm a more strategic purchaser, I guess. I buy the features I need while avoiding paying for the ones I know I'll never use. Including multiple rears, biamped fronts, poorly thought out room correction, 30 unusable inputs, etc, etc.


Meridian and Theta are probably the only companies with product sophisticated enough to go from no HDMI to full HDMI. NAD's new units have 5 upgradable card slots with 4 new cards already announced, one of which is the Gennum VXP scaling option. I mean, sure, the Denon is probably the most overkill you can buy in a single box. But if you know what you want and know what you don't, you can get an excellent preamp/amp combination that is better suited to you for half the price. And, in the case of the NADs, far more upgradability. Personally, even the NADs are overkill to me as they still serve an extra dinner for which I'm not hungry.

But it is still true that people buy the most features for the money and so overkill will continue unabated.

Wait, so now you are basing this soly on price?
post #25 of 186
Quote:
Originally Posted by DougWinsor View Post

If you think so, oh wait they still do not have HDMI.

Not yet. But the technology allows for it. Theta has announced. i expect Meridian will follow when they get over it.
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Wait, so now you are basing this soly on price?

Nope. But the first thing I realized when I started buying components was that bells and whistles generally bring nothing to the table and often take away in other areas. Anyone who can afford a $7500 preamp can afford to swap out their sources for the latest products, so why have that many S-video and composite and analog inputs, except to appeal to the 'more is better' crowd? Anyone who can afford a $7500 surround preamp is probably not going to put a turntable in the same room as their theater or will buy a $2000 phono preamp so why bother building in a hiss generator? Etc, etc, etc.
post #26 of 186
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Not yet. But the technology allows for it. Theta has announced. i expect Meridian will follow when they get over it.

Ya "announced".

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But the first thing I realized when I started buying components was that bells and whistles generally bring nothing to the table and often take away in other areas.

Take away how?
post #27 of 186
Quote:
Originally Posted by DougWinsor View Post

Take away how?

Performance and/or simplicity and/or other better, more useful features.
post #28 of 186
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alimentall View Post

Performance and/or simplicity and/or other better, more useful features.

john, do you have any white papers explaining how adding additional speakers hurts performance? doug is going to need them
post #29 of 186
Doug needs a lot of things
post #30 of 186
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alimentall View Post

Doug needs a lot of things

yep, starting with a brain
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