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Denon Pre-Pro and Amp - Page 5

post #121 of 186
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alimentall View Post

It won't be a flaw to many people, but it clearly was a flaw to me. And I'm in good company. I don't think it's a permanent flaw, I am saying it was based on a faulty premise, one that can be rectified at some point.

It seems to me it is only a flaw if you want to base your target curves on a popular preference (NRC Athena curves) instead of neutrality, as per your own admission.
post #122 of 186
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alimentall View Post

IF you have a pro-capable unit, IF you are wiling to pay someone to do it and IF they know the proper curve to set up.

So your criticism of Audyssey boils down to it's not free and automatic. At least you'll never run out of things to criticize. Back on the Ignore list.
post #123 of 186
Quote:
Originally Posted by QueueCumber View Post

It seems to me it is only a flaw if you want to base your target curves on a popular preference (NRC Athena curves)

Sure, but how will you know if you'll be happy with the stock curves until you actually buy the unit? Lots of people weren't.
Quote:



instead of neutrality, as per your own admission.

Well, the last thing you want is 'neutral' or 'flat' at the listening position because we're used to the sound of a room and its effect on the sound. The Athena/NAD curve sounds most like the natural sound of a well behaved, well damped room. "Flat" sounds like you're outside with the speakers right on top of you.
post #124 of 186
Quote:
Originally Posted by faberryman View Post

So your criticism of Audyssey boils down to it's not free and automatic.

Not quite. It is a HUGE advantage to me that NAD's curve is proprietary and therefore, I get zero serious competition from Denon, Onkyo, Marantz. I can demo the curves right in the store and the competition is out. My criticism is mainly of the pro version, which doesn't allow me the flexibility I crave for the money it costs. The stock NAD implementation is 'free and automatic' and that's actually a good thing for my customers that have room problems or setup restrictions
Quote:



At least you'll never run out of things to criticize. Back on the Ignore list.

Thank you for doing the right thing.
post #125 of 186
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alimentall View Post

Sure, but how will you know if you'll be happy with the stock curves until you actually buy the unit? Lots of people weren't.

Well, the last thing you want is 'neutral' or 'flat' at the listening position because we're used to the sound of a room and its effect on the sound. The Athena/NAD curve sounds most like the natural sound of a well behaved, well damped room. "Flat" sounds like you're outside with the speakers right on top of you.

I have to wonder if my room's thorough mid and high frequency acoustical treatment plays a major part in why the Audyssey stock curves work so well in my particular situation. It isn't the first time the idea has crossed my mind... Or perhaps the audio frequency response training, and/or my familiarity with how a recording/performance space actually sounds with instruments playing live in it.
post #126 of 186
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alimentall View Post

Sure, but how will you know if you'll be happy with the stock curves until you actually buy the unit? Lots of people weren't.

Lots of people? Let's not go down that road again. As other folks have mentioned, their experience was that more people preferred the results than did not.

I'm willing to begrudge you that in a quickly made direct comparison with an Athena curve, some people may prefer the Athena curve to the stock curve. Undoubtedly, the general population is not as picky as you or me. I'll reserve any final judgement until I see a test comparing the Athena curve with the Audyssey stock curves.
post #127 of 186
Quote:
Originally Posted by QueueCumber View Post

I have to wonder if my room's thorough mid and high frequency acoustical treatment plays a major part in why the Audyssey stock curves work so well in my particular situation. It isn't the first time the idea has crossed my mind... Or perhaps the audio frequency response training, and/or my familiarity with how a recording/performance space actually sounds with instruments playing live in it.

I'd guess the former
post #128 of 186
Quote:
Originally Posted by QueueCumber View Post

Lots of people? Let's not go down that road again. As other folks have mentioned, their experience was that more people preferred the results than did not.

That could be. I have not tried Audyssey with many systems that really needed it, to be honest.
Quote:

I'm willing to begrudge you that in a quickly made direct comparison with an Athena curve, some people may prefer the Athena curve to the stock curve.

Close enough for me
post #129 of 186
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alimentall View Post

Not quite. It is a HUGE advantage to me that NAD's curve is proprietary and therefore, I get zero serious competition from Denon, Onkyo, Marantz. I can demo the curves right in the store and the competition is out. My criticism is mainly of the pro version, which doesn't allow me the flexibility I crave for the money it costs. The stock NAD implementation is 'free and automatic' and that's actually a good thing for my customers that have room problems or setup restrictions

Someone who prefers things stay proprietary and other brands not getting better. sounds like a sales person that is not interested in better products for its clients but making easy sales by showing people a trick.

So you keep these other brands in your store without any intention of selling them personally with the words you speak here i don't see why denon, marantz and onkyo would want you as a dealer.

I really hope now someone does a test on this magical curve and publishes it but we already know what your reply will be then : 'its not free and automatic'.

Daniel.
post #130 of 186
please limit your posts to technical issues

thanks

ps: keep it on topic too: Denon AVP and POA
post #131 of 186
Got it! Moving on!
post #132 of 186
Quote:
Originally Posted by markrubin View Post

please limit your posts to technical issues

thanks

ps: keep it on topic too: Denon AVP and POA

Sorry, we slowly moved away from any point i guess. I would invite anyone who has interest in this pre/pro to come over to the thread we have on it in the pre/pro/amp section of this forum where you can learn for yourself what issues we have or not.

On the curve topic, i hope at some point denon allows more default curves in both the normal and pro modes we now have only 2 could not hurt to add a few more.

Daniel.
post #133 of 186
Quote:
Originally Posted by QueueCumber View Post

I don't trust you to deliver an unbiased translation of what Paul Barton discussed with you. Does Paul Barton approve your representation of his views?

I have heard similar from Paul. John is relaying pretty much what I heard.
post #134 of 186
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alimentall View Post

Well, there's a difference between 'high-end' and 'mass market' design. We've been through this before in another thread, but IMO, the Denon stuff is still a mass market design, even though the price is high. It's a perfect match for B&W speakers. Or a Cadillac Escalade or a Rolex. It's a luxury mass market product. A truly high-end customer wouldn't need 75% of the circuitry in it and no more than 7 of the amp channels, so why bother putting in except to look cool? Hey, as long as it sells, they've achieved their design goals, but high-end design, it isn't.

I just sold off my beloved Lexicon MC12-HD, and put the Denon AVP in its place. As an initial observation, I won't say it sounds better than the Lexicon, but it clearly sounds as good as the Lexicon.

The real point I think is getting missed by a quote like the one above, is that Consumer Electronics Snobbery (the real "CES") is beginning to border on outrightly perverse logic. The Theta thread on "when" the CBIII will get HDMI has current owners buying Onkyo receivers and praising the "workaround" (psst . . . that's really not a workaround . . . that's just keeping your Theta box in your rack, while letting another piece of equipment do what it should have been doing at least two years ago); it has the whole host of what we once worshipped as "high end" products creating a stunning silence from those high-end manufacturers, on just what the next step is. In the interim, everything the devotees of these products want is contained in budget receivers.

So when Denon comes out with a no-holds-barred piece that boasts every feature that the traditional high end owners are clamoring for, it gets criticized . . . for what? For having everything that the "high-end" pieces lack. It's like a guy arguing that his buddy's girlfriend is somehow diminished because she's smart, pretty, big boobs, and really wants to make him happy (that's right--give us that old hag on antidepressants and running up your credit cards, now there's a woman).

I'm personally using the Denon with Halcro amps (MC20x2, MC30x1), two Velodyne subs (HGS-18s), and a PSB Synchrony One system (matching center and 4 surrounds). It sounds spectacular on both music and movies. It's the equal of my Lexicon in that department. It doesn't have Logic7, but it has a lot of other features (including the Audyssey) that everyone should value. The build quality on the Denon is bulletproof, and if it had a different nameplate on it, dealers would want to charge at least double what it's going for now.

The fact is that the high end, particularly with audio, is being redefined. I've owned Proceed, Krell, Lexicon, and now this piece as my processor and this is as good as any, with the features that don't make me go out and buy "workarounds" that amount to nothing more than a slavish devotion to an idea of the high end that is now dead.

I've been fortunate enough to own a lot of high end pieces over the years, and, hopefully, I've become smart and discerning enough to look beyond the "I-must-pay-more" mentality that often characterizes the high end. The Denon is high end, at least if that's defined objectively by performance and features. If that's not how it's defined, then what does that say about its patrons?

Nick
post #135 of 186
Nick, have fun with your avp, sound like a nice combo. Make sure to join the avp thread and wiki if you have problems there are now so many owners on this forum at some point it makes it easer for others to reconsider the world highend. There are now atleast 10 people online that moved from the lexicon for example and share your results and can help out with some of the more complex details once you own it for a few weeks and want to start tuning.

Like you stated its kinda sad that the newer techn. needed in HT pre/pro's turn out to be so ill defined and hard to implement that lots of brands fail and i am sure they are trying very hard nobody wants to release something with bugs its forced on you most of the time by external factors.

Maybe its all related to the move from analog to digital but it also might be the way chipdesigners and oem parts work these days if you followed the problems with the HD audio chipsets or the hdmi iffy defined specs (until 1.3b) you got to wonder who is debugging for who.

Daniel.
post #136 of 186
Quote:


The Theta thread on "when" the CBIII will get HDMI has current owners buying Onkyo receivers and praising the "workaround" (psst . . . that's really not a workaround . . . that's just keeping your Theta box in your rack, while letting another piece of equipment do what it should have been doing at least two years ago)

Burn! Sorry markrubin but I could not pass this one up.
post #137 of 186
Does anyone know if Denon Amp have enough juice to drive a power hungry speaker like Revel Salon 2?
post #138 of 186
I can't imagine any speakers out there that 150wpc can't drive. However, you can always bridge channels as I have with my Salk speakers. Bridge the middle six to drive the Rt. Lt. and center. That still leaves 4 channels to drive a pair of surrounds and a pair of rears.
post #139 of 186
Revel Salon 2s have a 86.3db sensitivity (low), and a nominal impedance of 6 ohms with a minimum of 3.7 ohms (difficult but not unduly so). Whether 150 watts per channel at 8 ohms is sufficient depends on the SPLs you intend to achieve and the distortion you are willing to tolerate. Bridging the Denon amp would be the way to go. What are you going to do with the extra channels anyway?
post #140 of 186
While I disagree with the proposition that the Denon is anything but cutting-edge, high-end, I do agree that the amount of channels to the amp causes a problem. Unless there were fourteen channels (permitting bridging of 7 speakers), it seems to me an incomplete solution.

Why not simply look into seven channels of amplification at adequate power? Even when I bought my Denon AVP-HD1, I never really considered the Denon amp, mainly because I'm very pleased with my Halcro amps--350 wpc into each speaker (MC20x2, MC30x1).

While I suspect that the Denon amp is more than sufficient power for your speakers, it still leaves you with three channels left over. If I owned the Denon amp, I would bridge or bi-amp the front array (L/C/R), and use individual channels for the other speakers (assuming you have a powered subwoofer). Actually, that's probably what Denon intended when it only produced 10 channels.

Thanks,

Nick
post #141 of 186
That is just what I said 3 hits back!
post #142 of 186
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nick Satullo View Post

While I disagree with the proposition that the Denon is anything but cutting-edge, high-end, I do agree that the amount of channels to the amp causes a problem. Unless there were fourteen channels (permitting bridging of 7 speakers), it seems to me an incomplete solution.

Why not simply look into seven channels of amplification at adequate power? Even when I bought my Denon AVP-HD1, I never really considered the Denon amp, mainly because I'm very pleased with my Halcro amps--350 wpc into each speaker (MC20x2, MC30x1).

While I suspect that the Denon amp is more than sufficient power for your speakers, it still leaves you with three channels left over. If I owned the Denon amp, I would bridge or bi-amp the front array (L/C/R), and use individual channels for the other speakers (assuming you have a powered subwoofer). Actually, that's probably what Denon intended when it only produced 10 channels.

Thanks,

Nick

The salon's can also be biamped. Why not use 4 per speaker, bridged and biamped. If you really want 7 channels add a second POA thats how they designed it.

So 4 for L/C/R need 12 amps.

the 8 left for the 4 surrounds in bridged mode.

I think one of the avp/poa owners on this board is doing this but i forgot who. If you check the first posting in the avp/poa sticky you can probably find the dual poa owners.

Daniel.

PS: i do the same netthomas is doing 3 fronts bridged and 4 surrounds normal.
post #143 of 186
Although the Denon preamp is a heckuva piece, overkill and mainstream that it is, Denon has never been terribly good at amps. Unless you are specifically wanting to setup dual 5.1 systems or just want the aesthetics to match, it's not going to have any advantage at all over a really good and less expensive 7-ch amp from another company (or two 5-channel amps. And resale value won't be as good as with other companies products and where do you put something that tall anyway?
post #144 of 186
I didn't have any trouble finding a place to put that tall unit in my rack. Fits good, looks good, sounds good!!
post #145 of 186
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alimentall View Post

Although the Denon preamp is a heckuva piece, overkill and mainstream that it is, Denon has never been terribly good at amps. Unless you are specifically wanting to setup dual 5.1 systems or just want the aesthetics to match, it's not going to have any advantage at all over a really good and less expensive 7-ch amp from another company (or two 5-channel amps. And resale value won't be as good as with other companies products and where do you put something that tall anyway?

yeah better get a NAD and become a beta tester... Specs and real tests on the amps are fine. True they might not be the best 'value' but this is the 20k forum. Also we don't have a clue how good the resale value will be look at the 1994 POA-S1 still considered a great amp and keeps value.

Not sure why you always need to have a way of putting something down based on something unclear.

Daniel.
post #146 of 186
I'm just being realistic. What would be the compelling reason to buy something like that? It's too heavy to move except via truck, it has more channels than most need and takes up as much room as two amps anyway. Unless Denon has unlocked some magical amplifier technology that makes it better than amps made buy people who do high-end amps every day for 20 or 30 years. Heck, you could even buy something hand built in the US for that price. And with more power and pedigree if you like. I could see it if we were in the regular old preamp/amp forum where the Japanese rule, but......
post #147 of 186
I'm using Bryston PowerPac 300 SSTs with my Salon2s, and they are working wonderfully for the amount of juice I need.

If I had the spare cash I would upgrade to 28B SSTs, even though it is unnecessary so far, just for the extra headroom...
post #148 of 186
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alimentall View Post

I'm just being realistic. What would be the compelling reason to buy something like that? It's too heavy to move except via truck, it has more channels than most need and takes up as much room as two amps anyway. Unless Denon has unlocked some magical amplifier technology that makes it better than amps made buy people who do high-end amps every day for 20 or 30 years. Heck, you could even buy something hand built in the US for that price. And with more power and pedigree if you like. I could see it if we were in the regular old preamp/amp forum where the Japanese rule, but......

Then atleast keep your talk on what was the question the amp. I have no problem with someone not wanting a 140lbs machine. Didn't claim it was magical either just that you can't claim its not good without some facts to back it up. We just explained how you could use the 10 amps inside a poa to hook up salons if you wanted.

Daniel.
post #149 of 186
Powerwise, I agree with nethomas, I'm just saying that it's an odd amp for that much money.
post #150 of 186
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alimentall View Post

Powerwise, I agree with nethomas, I'm just saying that it's an odd amp for that much money.

Well agreed but what is odd for some is good for others. including netthomas i guess since he also owns one. 10 channels aint that weird if you have a 7.1 or 5.1 setup you either bridge all or the 3 fronts.

at about $750 per channel its not cheap but not silly high either.

Daniel.
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