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Will my PC look good on these TVs?

post #1 of 30
12/9/08 at 3:20pm
Thread Starter 
Hey gents,

One of the most important things for me is to be able to connect my PC to my television, and have it look good. I'll be in the market for a new TV in the coming months, and I'm leaning heavily towards plasma. More specifically, I'm interested in the Panny TH46PZ800 and the Pioneer PDP-5020FD. I realize LCD is a safer bet when considering PC hookups, but after seeing the incredible black levels on the Pioneer 5080HD I'm sold on the technology. Really, the only thing making me hesitate is whether I'll be able to get 1:1 mapping with my PC output.

I'm no stranger to tinkering (thanks to AVS, I've been enjoying 1:1 for three years now on my old Sony Grand Wega), but for once I'd like to know what I'm getting into and not be surprised (read: disappointed) the day I receive the television.

As always, thanks for your advice!
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post #2 of 30
12/9/08 at 3:26pm
As long as you use DVI you'll be able to get 1:1 pixel mapping on those displays. Unfortunately I believe that both max out at 1360x768 on the VGA port.
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post #3 of 30
12/9/08 at 4:02pm
Depends on what you mean by 'PC'. For applications and such you must realize that plasmas has ABL limiters which limit brightness on bright scenes. So if you pull up Windows Explorer it will look just OK and will be obvious that your white levels on a bright screen like that will have a grayish tone. On the other hand, PC games look fantastic. I have several games that I can run @1080p and they look noticably better than the same games running on my PS3.
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post #4 of 30
12/9/08 at 8:08pm
XB, I do not know what you prefer as far as picture settings are concerned, but I see no difference in white levels between my two LCDs, and my two Plasmas. All of my panels are calibrated to conform to the standards. If I hold a piece of paper up to any one of my displays, the whites are in fact white. Now, brightness is another story. To me, they are all very bright, although on all white screen, the LCDs are brighter, not whiter. There is a difference.
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post #5 of 30
12/9/08 at 8:23pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by bad_pool View Post

Hey gents,

One of the most important things for me is to be able to connect my PC to my television, and have it look good. I'll be in the market for a new TV in the coming months, and I'm leaning heavily towards plasma. More specifically, I'm interested in the Panny TH46PZ800 and the Pioneer PDP-5020FD. I realize LCD is a safer bet when considering PC hookups, but after seeing the incredible black levels on the Pioneer 5080HD I'm sold on the technology. Really, the only thing making me hesitate is whether I'll be able to get 1:1 mapping with my PC output.

I'm no stranger to tinkering (thanks to AVS, I've been enjoying 1:1 for three years now on my old Sony Grand Wega), but for once I'd like to know what I'm getting into and not be surprised (read: disappointed) the day I receive the television.

As always, thanks for your advice!


PC works great on the 800U. 5020 is another story, see the user thread for details, long story short it doesn't display 1080p properly unless you engage it's PC mode. The PC mode doesn't have access to all the features you pretty much expect from the TV, no 24p, or color saturation control, no PureCinema period and it also features a higher black level.
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post #6 of 30
12/9/08 at 9:00pm
why would you want anything larger than a 24" CPU display? Most net content looks horrible even on 19"
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post #7 of 30
12/10/08 at 9:10am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by xb1032 View Post

Depends on what you mean by 'PC'.

I mean playing games, watching movies, and occasionally browsing the web (so pretty much everything except text editing). As for the connection, I'm open to either VGA or HDMI input, but HDMI is more convenient for me due to the inclusion of audio signal.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Patrick. View Post

PC works great on the 800U. 5020 is another story, see the user thread for details, long story short it doesn't display 1080p properly unless you engage it's PC mode. The PC mode doesn't have access to all the features you pretty much expect from the TV, no 24p, or color saturation control, no PureCinema period and it also features a higher black level.

I'll read the 5020 thread down the road for sure, but maybe you can answer me one last thing: does this limitation on the 5020 occur on the HDMI port as well, or just the VGA?

Quote:
Originally Posted by BrownTown View Post

why would you want anything larger than a 24" CPU display? Most net content looks horrible even on 19"

Movies and games, especially, but browsing the web from the couch on a massive screen is pretty awesome. Since both are 1080p, I expect text should look good as well - but I want to make sure, which is the purpose of this thread .
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post #8 of 30
12/10/08 at 9:36am
Quote:
Originally Posted by BrownTown View Post

why would you want anything larger than a 24" CPU display? Most net content looks horrible even on 19"

You are perhaps unfamiliar with the concept of an HTPC?

Lots of info here:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/forumdisplay.php?f=26
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post #9 of 30
12/10/08 at 11:42am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Patrick. View Post

PC works great on the 800U. 5020 is another story, see the user thread for details, long story short it doesn't display 1080p properly unless you engage it's PC mode. The PC mode doesn't have access to all the features you pretty much expect from the TV, no 24p, or color saturation control, no PureCinema period and it also features a higher black level.

This is not the case at all. The 5020 allows the user to engage dot-by-dot mode in 1080p while the video operation mode is selected. I am using my 5020 as a PC display and I think it looks significantly better than a friends Panasonic 1080p display. There is nothing the 800U offers over the 5020 and, in fact, it requires MORE effort to engage the 1:1 pixel mapping on the Panasonic (as it is buried in the picture settings menu). The Pioneer can use 1:1 simply by pressing the viewing mode button.

It is true that engaging PC mode does result in limited options and a higher black level, but you will never need to use it. VGA also has the same limitations.

It should be noted that, when engaging PC mode, the black levels become brighter. However, this downgrade simply results in black levels similar to the 8th generation panesl (such as the 5080, which the poster was pleased with). The 800U can't match the 5020 black levels when in video mode and is more comparable to the 5020 PC mode. Furthermore, there is additional dithering that occurs on the Panasonic that does not occur on the Pioneer.

You can also continue to send non-HDTV standard resolutions to the 5020 in video mode. If I send 1360x768 while in video mode, for instance, the signal is properly upscaled to 1080p with no overscan. From experience with both, the 5020 simply makes a better PC display.

Quote:


I'll read the 5020 thread down the road for sure, but maybe you can answer me one last thing: does this limitation on the 5020 occur on the HDMI port as well, or just the VGA?

This limitation exists for both HDMI and VGA, but as I said above, you should have no reason to use this mode as the standard video mode supports 1:1 pixel mapping. Both displays have limited resolution support over VGA, however. It should be noted that, if you send 480p or 720p to the Pioneer in video mode there will be 2% overscan, but this should not be a problem simply because that resolution would probably only be of use for content such as demanding games. In 1080p, there is true 1:1 pixel mapping (obviously with no overscan) and support for resolutions like 1360x768 with no overscan as well.

I was almost driven away from the 5020 by just such posts on this board and I'm thrilled that I went through with it. The PC image quality is absolutely fantastic on the 5020.
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post #10 of 30
12/10/08 at 12:15pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by dark1x View Post

I was almost driven away from the 5020 by just such posts on this board and I'm thrilled that I went through with it. The PC image quality is absolutely fantastic on the 5020.

Thanks very much for the input. The 5020 is definitely on my short list.
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post #11 of 30
12/10/08 at 12:27pm
i guess this is why the 5020 is more money than the 50" 800U.

but the 800U has more accurate colors.... right?
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post #12 of 30
12/10/08 at 1:23pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by RobbyTV View Post

i guess this is why the 5020 is more money than the 50" 800U.

but the 800U has more accurate colors.... right?

It should be noted that all of the Panasonic plasmas do still exhibit dithering/sparkling pixels at certain levels of brightness (towards the lower end of the grayscale, I suppose). When a portion of an image fades rapidly from a bright color to a darker hue, you'll notice dancing pixels surrounding this change in gradation. It's improved significantly over the years, but still remains an issue that can be seen from a normal viewing distance. It's not a particularly significant issue while viewing a video feed, but it may be distracting when a PC is in use as the image will be very static defined. This is certainly how I felt after using an 800U with a PC display.

The Pioneer simply produces a cleaner overall image. There is still minor PWM noise present, but nothing like the sparkling pixels of the Panny (which, in turn, is miles beyond any of the Samsung plasmas).
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post #13 of 30
12/10/08 at 7:59pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fanaticalism View Post

XB, I do not know what you prefer as far as picture settings are concerned, but I see no difference in white levels between my two LCDs, and my two Plasmas. All of my panels are calibrated to conform to the standards. If I hold a piece of paper up to any one of my displays, the whites are in fact white. Now, brightness is another story. To me, they are all very bright, although on all white screen, the LCDs are brighter, not whiter. There is a difference.

Yes I do like brighter whites. But if you open something like Windows Explorer which has a lot of white on the screen you'll see the white levels are lowered due to the ABL circuit. To demonstrate, just hit the tools menu on your remote and whites will brighten up. The ABL is the big culprit when you are talking about a lot of white on the screen at once.
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post #14 of 30
12/10/08 at 8:02pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Patrick. View Post

PC works great on the 800U. 5020 is another story, see the user thread for details, long story short it doesn't display 1080p properly unless you engage it's PC mode. The PC mode doesn't have access to all the features you pretty much expect from the TV, no 24p, or color saturation control, no PureCinema period and it also features a higher black level.


I haven't payed that much attention but at least my desktop and some games work fine in Video mode with dot by dot and I can use the same user menu as other devices(over HDMI on my 6020). Some games though do force me into PC mode which is how you stated above.
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post #15 of 30
12/10/08 at 8:28pm
The elite does not have this issue correct?

Quote:
Originally Posted by dark1x View Post

This is not the case at all. The 5020 allows the user to engage dot-by-dot mode in 1080p while the video operation mode is selected. I am using my 5020 as a PC display and I think it looks significantly better than a friends Panasonic 1080p display. There is nothing the 800U offers over the 5020 and, in fact, it requires MORE effort to engage the 1:1 pixel mapping on the Panasonic (as it is buried in the picture settings menu). The Pioneer can use 1:1 simply by pressing the viewing mode button.

It is true that engaging PC mode does result in limited options and a higher black level, but you will never need to use it. VGA also has the same limitations.

It should be noted that, when engaging PC mode, the black levels become brighter. However, this downgrade simply results in black levels similar to the 8th generation panesl (such as the 5080, which the poster was pleased with). The 800U can't match the 5020 black levels when in video mode and is more comparable to the 5020 PC mode. Furthermore, there is additional dithering that occurs on the Panasonic that does not occur on the Pioneer.

You can also continue to send non-HDTV standard resolutions to the 5020 in video mode. If I send 1360x768 while in video mode, for instance, the signal is properly upscaled to 1080p with no overscan. From experience with both, the 5020 simply makes a better PC display.


This limitation exists for both HDMI and VGA, but as I said above, you should have no reason to use this mode as the standard video mode supports 1:1 pixel mapping. Both displays have limited resolution support over VGA, however. It should be noted that, if you send 480p or 720p to the Pioneer in video mode there will be 2% overscan, but this should not be a problem simply because that resolution would probably only be of use for content such as demanding games. In 1080p, there is true 1:1 pixel mapping (obviously with no overscan) and support for resolutions like 1360x768 with no overscan as well.

I was almost driven away from the 5020 by just such posts on this board and I'm thrilled that I went through with it. The PC image quality is absolutely fantastic on the 5020.
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post #16 of 30
12/11/08 at 5:00am
Quote:
Originally Posted by nafai23 View Post

The elite does not have this issue correct?

I honestly do not know. It very well could have this issue when PC mode is engaged. It doesn't seem like they gimped the **20 panels or anything, rather, they changed the way the image is processed and that is the result.

They have had odd issues with PC support in the past. For instance, the 7th generation panels (all of them) had issues with the VGA port. Regardless of the resolution being fed to the display VGA would introduce significant image tearing. That tells me that they believe PC users are only interested in the appearance of their desktop and do not expect people to use PC mode for video based applications. The same line of thinking probably applies to the PC mode of their 9th generation panels.
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post #17 of 30
12/11/08 at 5:02am
Quote:
Originally Posted by xb1032 View Post

I haven't payed that much attention but at least my desktop and some games work fine in Video mode with dot by dot and I can use the same user menu as other devices(over HDMI on my 6020). Some games though do force me into PC mode which is how you stated above.

The video mode will display the image properly (no overscan) in dot by dot but you are losing resolution in video mode and some text is so blurred it's practically unreadable (red on blue, red on black)
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post #18 of 30
12/11/08 at 5:36am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Patrick. View Post

The video mode will display the image properly (no overscan) in dot by dot but you are losing resolution in video mode and some text is so blurred it's practically unreadable (red on blue, red on black)

Wait, what? When using the movie present with adjustments, the image quality is every bit as sharp at 1920x1080 as it is in PC mode. I've looked very closely at this and there is no blurring of the text. Can you give me an example of this problem you are seeing (an example which I can reproduce)?

Dot by dot would suggest that you are seeing the full 1920x1080 image (every pixel) with no overscan. That seems to be the case. Did you disable the orbiter (I did)?

What you are describing sounds like an issue with the present being used. I stick with movie mode with some RGB values adjusted via the service mode (to provide a cooler image and a more accurate grayscale). Different preset modes DO actually have a negative impact on the PC image as they all use edge enhancement. Movie mode is the one preset that uses no edge enhancement, DRE, or any other such artificial enhancements.
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post #19 of 30
12/11/08 at 5:43am
Sounds like there is much confusion on the issue here. I am kind of freaking out about my 111fd order now.
I posted a thread in elite sticky thread but no one replied.
If I have a display not capable of displaying my main source(htpc) properly that I paid 4k........................


Quote:
Originally Posted by dark1x View Post

Wait, what? When using the movie present with adjustments, the image quality is every bit as sharp at 1920x1080 as it is in PC mode. I've looked very closely at this and there is no blurring of the text. Can you give me an example of this problem you are seeing (an example which I can reproduce)?

Dot by dot would suggest that you are seeing the full 1920x1080 image (every pixel) with no overscan. That seems to be the case. Did you disable the orbiter (I did)?

What you are describing sounds like an issue with the present being used. I stick with movie mode with some RGB values adjusted via the service mode (to provide a cooler image and a more accurate grayscale). Different preset modes DO actually have a negative impact on the PC image as they all use edge enhancement. Movie mode is the one preset that uses no edge enhancement, DRE, or any other such artificial enhancements.
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post #20 of 30
12/11/08 at 6:28am
Quote:
Originally Posted by nafai23 View Post

Sounds like there is much confusion on the issue here. I am kind of freaking out about my 111fd order now.
I posted a thread in elite sticky thread but no one replied.
If I have a display not capable of displaying my main source(htpc) properly that I paid 4k........................

I honestly don't understand what Patrick is on about. I've spent a lot of time with various plasmas over the years including two of the current Panasonic models and I believe the 5020fd (which is inferior to the Elite you're buying) produces the best picture for a PC. It looks fantastic in video mode. However, as the image is subjected to any of the processing/settings you select, it is possible to produce a nasty image depending on how you configure the display.

Furthermore, even if you DO engage the PC mode (which you should have NO reason to do), the black levels are still superior to the Panasonic displays (basically on par with 8th generation Pioneer panels).

I don't think you'll have any troubles with your Elite. It will look very good as a home theatre PC display (certainly better than any other plasma on the market).
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post #21 of 30
12/11/08 at 6:33am
Quote:
Originally Posted by browntown View Post

why would you want anything larger than a 24" cpu display? Most net content looks horrible even on 19"

huh?
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post #22 of 30
12/11/08 at 6:43am
Quote:
Originally Posted by dark1x View Post

I honestly don't understand what Patrick is on about. I've spent a lot of time with various plasmas over the years including two of the current Panasonic models and I believe the 5020fd (which is inferior to the Elite you're buying) produces the best picture for a PC. It looks fantastic in video mode. However, as the image is subjected to any of the processing/settings you select, it is possible to produce a nasty image depending on how you configure the display.

Furthermore, even if you DO engage the PC mode (which you should have NO reason to do), the black levels are still superior to the Panasonic displays (basically on par with 8th generation Pioneer panels).

I don't think you'll have any troubles with your Elite. It will look very good as a home theatre PC display (certainly better than any other plasma on the market).

It's very simple, it's not giving you all the resolution. If you "don't know what I'm going on about" go and ask what it means in the calibration forum. Ask people who've worked on these sets if they are missing actual picture resolution compared to the Elite line or any display that can properly display 108p for that matter.

As for the PC mode, if I wanted a plasma with 8g black levels and no processing I would have saved my money and bought an 8g, because they already do that!
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post #23 of 30
12/11/08 at 6:43am
Thanks dark!
The manual implies that the TV switches to PC mode when it detects a pc signal over hdmi.

So you are saying I am free to use whatever I like in terms of modes and calibrations with the pc hooked up via dvi/hdmi on the 111fd?



Quote:
Originally Posted by dark1x View Post

I honestly don't understand what Patrick is on about. I've spent a lot of time with various plasmas over the years including two of the current Panasonic models and I believe the 5020fd (which is inferior to the Elite you're buying) produces the best picture for a PC. It looks fantastic in video mode. However, as the image is subjected to any of the processing/settings you select, it is possible to produce a nasty image depending on how you configure the display.

Furthermore, even if you DO engage the PC mode (which you should have NO reason to do), the black levels are still superior to the Panasonic displays (basically on par with 8th generation Pioneer panels).

I don't think you'll have any troubles with your Elite. It will look very good as a home theatre PC display (certainly better than any other plasma on the market).
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post #24 of 30
12/11/08 at 6:49am
Quote:
Originally Posted by dark1x View Post

Wait, what? When using the movie present with adjustments, the image quality is every bit as sharp at 1920x1080 as it is in PC mode. I've looked very closely at this and there is no blurring of the text. Can you give me an example of this problem you are seeing (an example which I can reproduce)?

Dot by dot would suggest that you are seeing the full 1920x1080 image (every pixel) with no overscan. That seems to be the case. Did you disable the orbiter (I did)?

What you are describing sounds like an issue with the present being used. I stick with movie mode with some RGB values adjusted via the service mode (to provide a cooler image and a more accurate grayscale). Different preset modes DO actually have a negative impact on the PC image as they all use edge enhancement. Movie mode is the one preset that uses no edge enhancement, DRE, or any other such artificial enhancements.

Example Kuro settings thread page 1, if you can't see that you're blind, as for the rest of the normal text it's blurry too. It's very easy to see when switching between PC and Video.

My set is already using D-Nice's offsets and Movie mode of course.

Edit: Theme must be AVS retro or Black (most fitting for a plasma anyways) for the problem to really show in the settings thread. This happens with other colored text/backgrounds too. That was just an easy example
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post #25 of 30
12/11/08 at 7:05am
Another confusing post.....
haha

No one seems to have any concrete answers about the kuros and HTPC's

If the set is making the text blurry that means the image is soft. Seems like that would be a minus for ALL content.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Patrick. View Post

Example Kuro settings thread page 1, if you can't see that you're blind, as for the rest of the normal text it's blurry too. It's very easy to see when switching between PC and Video.

My set is already using D-Nice's offsets and Movie mode of course.

Edit: Theme must be AVS retro or Black (most fitting for a plasma anyways) for the problem to really show in the settings thread. This happens with other colored text/backgrounds too. That was just an easy example
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post #26 of 30
12/11/08 at 7:10am
I agree, and it is.. some just don't want to admit it. If you are going for an elite there should be no problem though.
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post #27 of 30
12/11/08 at 7:15am
I meant no offense by the above and it seems that I simply haven't tested enough. I use the white version of this forum, for one thing. I've yet to encounter the troublesome text being referenced, but I will try it upon returning home.

It's not a matter of not wanting to admit anything, however. It's not a problem I was aware of. The few times I did toggle between PC and video mode revealed so difference in sharpness of text, but this was simply black on white text.
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post #28 of 30
12/11/08 at 7:26am
That's ok . It's just a really annoying problem, I think after looking at some test patterns the problems I'm having with colored text are actually something different.

When looking at video test patterns with color steps (low to bright) I can see the Kuro has a lot of trouble with red and blue. There are squares of different shades of color that are supposed to be well defined but the Kuro stumbles with red and blue at the highest levels. In the PC mode it aces the test.

I don't find the actual resolution of the TV to be "bad" but it's definitely missing a little something. That's related to the enhancer option, which is forced to mode 2 on the 5020/6020. Mode 1 gives you the best image (true dot by dot 1080p) but it's not available on the Non elite TVs.
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post #29 of 30
12/11/08 at 7:43am
Interesting. I was never a fan of mode 1 of the enhancer on the 8th gen panels. I always stuck with mode 2. It was certainly sharper with mode 1, but it almost felt as if there was some very minor ringing to the image that wasn't present in mode 2. I prefer a slightly softer image anyways, though, so perhaps that's it. I do not like the ultra sharp nature of LCDs, for instance. The picture on the Kuro still seems very sharp to me, but with just a touch of softness that improves the overall appearance of the content on screen.

I'm generally very picky about image quality issues, but I haven't been bothered at all thus far. I really like the PC image the 5020 puts out and certainly much prefer it to what I saw with the Panasonic (which has obvious dithering/sparkling pixels in somewhat darker areas which I think looks really poor with some PC imagery).
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post #30 of 30
12/11/08 at 2:02pm
Well, it looks like you were quite right. Forgive me for doubting you. I've tested many different scenarios and, overall, the picture quality looks great with my PC, but that red text on the darker forum really does become blurry (which isn't the case in PC mode).

Overall, I'm still very pleased with the image quality, but it is disappointing to see that it has some issues in video mode. I would agree that this is related to the "enhancer" option that is missing from the **20 series options as it looks very much like what occured on my 5080 when option 2 (which I usually used) was engaged.
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