Moxi HD DVR - Page 88

I have been chatting with a pal who is not an AVSer, but a serious geek/engineer/programmer (he was one of my "outside" contacts/advisors back when I was managing smallish software development projects in publishing). For sure one source of a lot of what I know. We talk about DVRs, the software that runs them and the possibilities for third party sources (which we both SERIOUSLY believe in). He had been a TiVO guy, and if the information didn't already exist, he'd have been tinkering trying to figure out how to increase his internal disk size. I had alerted him when I first read about the big Moxi price drop (and lack on monthly charges), heralding a serious run at the business from the new owner of the Moxi tech and he HAD to get one.

I had mentioned to him the discussion around the possibility of upgrading the internal drive, and wouldn't you know, he just HAD to figure it out. Naturally, he DID figure it out!

Now before I go any further, some serious caveats are in order. I HAVE been clear about what I consider our responsibilities as end users, about how I operate on a sense of fairness both to the company and to us as customers. I am further informed that in very recent memory, end users figured out how one COULD upgrade an internal drive in a cable supplied DVR (the Samsung 3090), but only in one very specific fashion (it seems only one specific drive can be used, a 320G Seagate model). In reality this information, publicly available on AVS, did NOT hurt either Samsung or the cable co. in any way, but DID help out a lot of customers when the cable outfit didn't' see any need. The irony was that the NOW, cable outfit is also dribbling out units already equipped with the same 320G drive... BUT customers who already HAD made the upgrade did NOT have to go back and swap their equipment, thus there was actually LESS burden on the cable outfit that owned the boxes. CLEAR win-win.

First, doing this can be thought of as violating the warranty (also there is the end-user agreement mentioned above). If you are at times kinda ham fisted, or are nervous in any way, don't bother. There is every possibility that at some point, Moxi WILL have a 1T model alongside it's 500G, just like TiVO now does. Not to mention Moxi actually KNOWS how to support external storage properly, so one CAN add 2-4-6T of additional external storage. That being said, if you are very careful, you CAN swap back the OEM drive and leave little evidence you DID mess with the unit.

The only thing that made me pause was us having "Moxi-Guy" around... would this information scare/p*ss him off? It's judgement call and I think not, given what he has already said and posted here... I think he completely understands this CAN come out and JUST like TiVO, was inevitable. And like I've already said, this information being out sure makes a BIG plus to those on the fences about going Moxi.

Lastly, there is NO guarantee whatsoever that this will work for everyone, or even anyone else. Don't cry to me if it doesn't... there is some level of risk associated with doing it (as there is for the Samsung thing I mentioned, or any TiVO user upgrading their internal drive [interesting to note there seems to be actual businesses who do that upgrade FOR a price]). It COULD be you try it, it doesn't work, you replace the OEM drive and it still doesn't work (i.e. not for the faint of heart).

Enough caveats for y'all? AT YOUR RISK, but you CAN upgrade the internal drive... someone has using these steps"


1. Shutdown Moxi by unplugging the power
2. Open case, remove original HD, install empty 1T/1.5T SATA drive being VERY careful touching anything else in there
3. Boot up the Moxi and hold the up, down, left, right buttons on front of the Moxi (4 button press)
4. You will be presented with the screen posted earlier in this thread <<a href="http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=18461470#post18461470" target="_blank">http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...0#post18461470 > with the "re-install" message
5. Make sure you are sure you want to delete everything (i.e. first watch all the recorded stuff, write down series recordings etc.).. then click OK.
6. This part took 30-40 minutes (rough guess, it was not timed) and does not give you a status screen
7. Run through system setup
8. You are done!

He said there was no indication in the UI that you had more space... you only REALLY know that once you start adding recordings.

It worked for my geek pal, I've know him long enough to 100% trust it DID work, but once again, YMMV! Personally, I am extremely tight with money, so I look at a lot more angles before any $$ goes out, but the fact this info now exists sure as hell moves a Moxi up the list (AND a clearly written policy what happens AFTER the 90 days/1 year warranty period I also need).

This is huge!

So this confirms two things that we been wondering about regarding the secret screen.

1. You can use any blank/empty/new SATA drive to perform a backup/upgrade .

2. This will expand your internal storage space to the size of your drive.

This is definitely a huge advantage for Moxi since you do not need a PC to backup or expands your internal storage.

FYI if your home has an amplifier you are protected against MoCA issues as the high-frequency used by MoCA won't pass through the amp in the upstream direction.

And just as important, it means that there is an easy recovery process if/when your drive fails. Instead of hiding it, Moxi should be advertising it.

Exactly. I've already got mine set up with an external 1.5 that's working fine so I doubt I'll mess with it now. But one of my concerns before buying was the hd issue because my old TW moxies died.

Thanks riverside. Hey, did you tip your friend off about that recovery screen that our friend here's daughter found? Or did he find it himself?
Dave

Having a strange issue over the past couple of days. Some of my channels are missing, then return later on the program guide. Specifically lower channels that are also broadcast in analog. I thought at first that it was the stupid tuning adapter, but I bypassed that and the channels were still missing. Could it be that TW is having problems with some of their digital channel broadcasts? That would make me feel better knowing it's not the Moxi having problems.

Hmm interesting. I had a similar issue last week with FIOS. 505 is FOX and 507 is ABC both HD on my FIOS network. I tuned to 505 and I would see the ABC channel not the FOX and when I tuned to 507 I would see the ABC channel. Basically 505 and 507 became ABC HD and FOX was gone.

Stayed that way for a day until I power cycled the Moxi. After that everything went back to normal. Not sure if it was a MCARD issue or Moxi. I'm hoping it is only a rare glitch, sure was strange though.

In my case the channels are completely gone. Gone from the guide and channel list. I should have channels 2-74 that are below 100 and I only see about 10 of them. It's like the other don't exist any more. Problem is I'm not who to yell at, Moxi or Time Warner.

This is really HUGE! Also confirms my suspicions as to what's going on inside the box. One question. What happens when you take the removed drive and mount it via the eSATA connector? Can you see the previous recordings? I'm not convinced that you will be able but it's worth a try.

I've been running at ~98% capacity for the past few months and this gives me an alternative to buying the Synology NAS that I've had me eyes on.

J

Operon,

The secret trick will delete all your data (recordings, series setups, cable card pairings, etc) I am not sure if this will fix your 98% issue. You will still need to watch the existing recordings. I say wait till summer when all shows are on reruns and power through them all.

wow kzy, I have the exact same issue here in California. I'm in touch with one of the TW supervisors because their techs do not seemn to be able to refresh the CC properly. They came out last week and it was the same story I had when I first bought the Moxi. I overheard the boss telling the tech the exact same procedure that Moxi reccomends - initialize, refresh, validate,(in that order) but the guy can't do it for some reason. I told him the cc didn't refresh and he just got a new CC and new TA and told me he didn't need to follow those instructions because with a new CC all that stuff is "done automatically". I told him it wasn't done automatically when I bought the Moxi. It took two guys from their Engineering Dept to come to my house.

Let me know if you hear anything and I'll get back to you if I find out the fix. I really think tht CC just needs to be refreshed

Dave

Well, I had tried everything to get them back. Bypassing the tuning adapter, resetting the Moxi. When I reset the Moxi I used the reset button. When I pulled the power completely on it, the channels come back. I'm not sure why they are disappearing to begin with, but maybe there's a way in the Moxi to refresh the CableCard from within the menus or something.

Add my big thanks to RiversideGuy for the information. This is certainly good news. Would you happen to know the make and model of hard drive your friend chose for the upgrade? Did he go with the Western Digital Green Drive? If yes, then we will know that drive will work in a Moxi. (And if he did go with that drive, did he disable the "IntelliPark" feature as many TiVo users are doing when they upgrade their TiVos with the Green Drive?) Thanks again.

Regarding the installing of a new hard drive in one's Moxi, we will eventually find the answers to the following questions:

What is the correct procedure concerning the Moxi in your Moxi Online account? Do you first remove the Moxi from your account and then add a "new" Moxi using the Moxi ID so you can generate a new registration number which will need to be input after the fresh software install?

Or, you do not delete the Moxi from Moxi Online, whereas the Moxi will see it is already registered and won't require the input of a Moxi Registration Number?

When he said "adding recordings" did he mean scheduling recordings or actually recording them?

All,

I have follow the recovery drive/drive expansion procedures outlined by Operon and Riverside Guy. I can confirm that this does indeed work. I will try to answer some questions here.



There is no preparation needed other than TO BE COMPLETELY SURE you are ready to do this. If you are using a new larger drive, keep in mind you will not be able to transfer your recordings or series recordings setup over. You will have to create the series recordings over again. So make sure to jot these down. Also, if you use cable card, you may need to get it re-paired!

After the drive is complete you will need to run Moxi setup again. However, you will not need to register it again since it keeps the registration settings.


I think he meant actually recording them. I am going to clarify Riverside Guy a bit it here. Moxi does not provide a indicator of how many recording hours you have based on the size of your harddrive. Moxi only gives you a percentage used. So if you record a 2 HD hour show, it consumed 3% on the original 500GB drive. It consumed only 1% only 1.5TB drive. This is how you can confirm your internal drive has been expanded to take up the whole larger drive.

I was ready to pull the trigger on a 3 tuner Moxi package when I found out that Moxi does not have PIP. I can't believe my lowly SA8300 has a major feature that the Moxi doesn't. This may be a deal breaker for me. Is there any chance of PIP being implemented by software update?

No indicators have given that this feature will be on their list of things to do.

Remember that when you are using the component-out to your DVD component-in connection, you will also need to change the resolution to 480i. The DVD recorder will likely only accept 480i on the component inputs; not the 480p, 720p, or 1080i output that is available.

At least that is how one of my DVD recorder works that has a component input.

As far as I know, there are no DVD recorders, or even Blu-ray recorders that are able to record via component inputs at any HD resolution.

Thanks, Acaoacao, for the clarification.

One further question: If you were going to replace your Moxi's internal hard drive (which I intend to do eventually), which drive would you select? Would you go with an untested Western Digital AV Green Drive, or stick with the Seagate Pipelines which are the ones Moxi uses, or is there even a better drive out there? Thanks.

midas89,

I am a cheapskate so I will not go for the Pipeline.

Does not matter to me if it is loud... but
I would go with the cheapest. Right now for a 1.5TB it is $89 and 2TB is $129 on Newegg.

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16822152175
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16822145298


I would go with either one. I cannot confirm they will work.. but I do not see why not..

thank you again, acaoacao.

The Seagate Website now only lists the 1TB and above Pipelines spin at 5900 RPM (instead of the 7200 500GB drives in the Moxi now).

Thanks for the NewEgg links. Both have some negative reviews, but of course every hard drive out there has some negative review from people who got a defective one.

Actually I sent him the image... I kinda KNEW he would figure the whole thing out!

I forgot to mention that there CAN be a downside, whether internal or external. One COULD pile up SO MUCH stuff that one realizes one never will find the time to watch it all (especially with summer approaching in the northern hemisphere).

The irony is that I have really schooled myself to never allow more than 4-5-6 hours to pile up... even knowing there IS equipment that will allow me to archive an entire season and watch contiguously. Surely a great idea, BUT how does one find time to watch 18 some odd hours worth of 24?

Not sure, but this is another of my pet peeves... there seems to be a general consensus that only certain drives will work with DVRs... IMO driven by totally by piss poor understanding of how volumes are addressed. While that does seem to be GENERALLY true, it is NOT the drive that's the issue, it's the DVR and it's software. Attach ANY of the "drives that don;t work" to a computer and you'll see it does exactly what it's designed to do, record bits and retrieve those same bits.

What sparked my initial interest in Moxi (other than the $$b drop) was an acknowledgment that pretty much anything (including arrays!) will work for external storage. THAT told me they had "proper" volume support at an OS level. NOT surprising as it seems they use a Linux variant as their base... Unix has KNOWN for 30 years how to properly support multiple volumes!

Somehow I have this impression the Moxi guys actually USE what they sell, so my guess would be that at least feature requests are listened to more seriously than from by those doling cable leased DVRs.

Me too... my bud is one of those kind of guys who relish the technology challenge, but once he solves the basic issue, he moves on. He isn't really a heavy DVR user, he said he was fine with the OEM drive.. but like I said, he relishes the challenge.

Besides, a few more regular's here doing this and over the next few months, a lot of the issues concerning folks should come to light.

Not to mention I sure as hell hope Moxi does NOT cast a jaundiced eye and somehow shut this down. I will be VERY upset if this happens... because I seriously think this is a real win-win.

OTOH, if this spurs a documented policy about what happens after the 90 days/1 year, THAT would be great!

While any arbitrary drive (of the proper technology, of course) will "work"...the "for DVR" drives are indeed different from normal "for computer" drives. They have a different firmware which places priority on streaming performance rather than retrieving each and every bit no matter what. So, in the case of a bad block, a "DVR" drive will fail to read it and move on. The user might see a bit of macroblocking and/or a brief audio dropout and then it's all good. A "computer" drive will re-try multiple times to read the block before giving up...and in the process hose your viewing experience as the drive writhes in pain trying to retrieve that data.

In addition, there are all sorts of differences in how various drives handle things like power consumption features, auto-parking, and the like. While there are standards for much of this stuff, some of it is proprietary and the DVR software can be optimized to utilize the proprietary features via a firmware API (or in some cases special care must be made to disable the features where it can present a problem...eg IntelliPark and Tivos).

So, there is more than just the OS volume management involved here.

Specifically regarding the Seagate Pipeline and Western Digital AV-GP Green Drive, they are advertised as drives that have been created to run in 24/7 DVR/PVR environments and to be able to accept an X-number of multiple HD streams.

Concerning the Western Digital AV-GP Green Drive with their "IntelliPark" feature, since the Moxi is always caching streams, I would hope this feature would not negatively affect the Moxi the way it has been reported to affect TiVo.

I am hoping to get delivery soon of a used out-of-warranty two-tuner Moxi. I want to use it as a test box for an upgraded hard drive. (I don't want to void the warranty in my 3-tuner Moxi or break it if something goes wrong.) Of course, I will report my experiences if and when things happen. I assume as time passes, more and more people will report Moxi upgrade experiences now that RiversideGuy reported new internal hard drives can be self-installed.

WDIDLE3

As you pointed out, the TiVO crowd has identified several drives that either won't work or are error prone because of "green" technology like head parks and spin downs. An example: WD uses intellipark on some of their drives and you may have to disable it with WDIDLE3 for a TiVO install, then those drives work great. Not sure how this would work or if it's needed on a Moxi.

Dave