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Official JVC RS20 / HD750 Calibration and CMS thread - Page 52

post #1531 of 1782
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by psychdoc View Post

For the experts/well informed out there....

What 120" screen would be recommended for this JVC projector in the neighborhood of 1.3 gain on a 16:9 ratio. I can't imagine spending more than 5k on it so consider that one variable (less would be better). I'm reading a lot of posts here on this projector but not much recommended as far as screens go. With some minimal ambient light at times (some times it will be very dark), is 120" a good choice? Thanks....

I'm a big fan of Stewart screens and so my top recommendation is always a Studiotek 130, but only if the room has no ambient light and doesn't reflect a lot of light. 120" should work fine. I'm using a 110" Studiotek 130 right now and with the iris all the way open, I prefer the regular and not high lamp mode. With a 120" screen you'll probably want to use the high lamp mode.
post #1532 of 1782
Thanks Mark for pointing me in a direction. Now let the research begin.....
post #1533 of 1782
The frightening thing that many of us discover is that choosing a screen can be even more difficult and intensive than choosing the projector! I've been researching screens and testing them off an on for I think a couple years now! I finally decided on the Stewart Studiotek -130 because it has just enough gain to give a bit of boost to the picture but largely without the compromises that happen with higher gain screen material.
post #1534 of 1782
I just had my RS20 calibrated. The calibrator put the signal generator into the Denon3808ci receiver's blu ray input. (It was easier to get it hooked up that way.) I just watched Baraka and the images were visually stunning-much better than factory THX mode. Then I put on HDTV programming on and the calibrated user1 image was worse than every one of the factory preset modes. In other word calibration made blu ray better-actually much better. But it made the satelite High Def Channels worse than before.

Anyone please venture a guess about what happened or what I can do about it? Did we err in putting the test signals into the Denon rather than into the projector directly? Help!
post #1535 of 1782
Quote:
Originally Posted by mark meyers View Post

Anyone please venture a guess about what happened or what I can do about it? Did we err in putting the test signals into the Denon rather than into the projector directly? Help!

Did you pay to only have the Blu-ray calibrated? Sounds like your calibration was not completed. Did he verify settings with Blu-ray calibration discs? Since many DVD players have internal adjustments, your system could have been calibrated for the Satellite HD, then the DVD player calibrated to match.
post #1536 of 1782
Quote:
Originally Posted by R Harkness View Post

The frightening thing that many of us discover is that choosing a screen can be even more difficult and intensive than choosing the projector! I've been researching screens and testing them off an on for I think a couple years now! I finally decided on the Stewart Studiotek -130 because it has just enough gain to give a bit of boost to the picture but largely without the compromises that happen with higher gain screen material.

This is so true, $6K on one projector can be a night and day difference to another projector. The incremental difference in screens is much smaller, however room specific screen choice has many factors to consider. I prefer non-gain screens because the image is usually sharper, no visible grain from the gain coating, no hot spots and no elevated black levels.
post #1537 of 1782
Quote:
Originally Posted by GlenC View Post

I prefer non-gain screens because the image is usually sharper, no visible grain from the gain coating, no hot spots and no elevated black levels.

Glen,
Where your premise about large gain screens may be accurate in general, I think the characteristics that you listed of gain screens is quite the OPPOSITE with the Dalite Hi-Power screen (with possible exception of slightly elevated blacks).
post #1538 of 1782
Quote:
Originally Posted by WOLVERNOLE View Post

Glen,
Where your premise about large gain screens may be accurate in general, I think the characteristics that you listed of gain screens is quite the OPPOSITE with the Dalite Hi-Power screen (with possible exception of slightly elevated blacks).

Nothing is absolute! The Hi-Power is a different issue. Since it is a retro-reflective surface, lens mounting should be close to eye level. There will still be some SSE, and I wouldn't want a 2.8 gain in my black level. I have a Dalite Cinema Vision screen and took it down for a DIY $60 screen that has a much more uniform image and good black level. For high ambient light, I would consider a Hi-Power configuration.
post #1539 of 1782
Quote:
Originally Posted by GlenC View Post

Did you pay to only have the Blu-ray calibrated? Sounds like your calibration was not completed. Did he verify settings with Blu-ray calibration discs? Since many DVD players have internal adjustments, your system could have been calibrated for the Satellite HD, then the DVD player calibrated to match.

I must not understand what a calibration is. I thought the projector is calibrated. I did not know that you could calibrate a Blu-ray.

I guess thats what happened because the Blu-ray HD image quality is fantastic But the Direct HDTV image quality is worse than before.
post #1540 of 1782
Quote:
Originally Posted by leDahu View Post

This procedure will set and optimize the THX mode only.
If you can read french or translate, all the details are here
http://www.homecinema-fr.com/forum/v...03803&start=30

Again, great write-up leDahu.

Guys, this is the most accurate calibration method and results I have seen posted on the AVS forum for the RS20. You can enter the url for the link that leDahu provides into babelfish.com and it will translate the whole page.

Dan
post #1541 of 1782
Quote:
Originally Posted by mark meyers View Post

I must not understand what a calibration is. I thought the projector is calibrated. I did not know that you could calibrate a Blu-ray.

I guess thats what happened because the Blu-ray HD image quality is fantastic But the Direct HDTV image quality is worse than before.

Call your calibrator back, he should warranty his work, at least I do, everything should look good, he shouldn't have left without verifying that all sources looked good. Did you go with a "cheap" calibrator?
post #1542 of 1782
Quote:
Originally Posted by mark meyers View Post

I just had my RS20 calibrated. The calibrator put the signal generator into the Denon3808ci receiver's blu ray input. (It was easier to get it hooked up that way.) I just watched Baraka and the images were visually stunning-much better than factory THX mode. Then I put on HDTV programming on and the calibrated user1 image was worse than every one of the factory preset modes. In other word calibration made blu ray better-actually much better. But it made the satelite High Def Channels worse than before.

Anyone please venture a guess about what happened or what I can do about it? Did we err in putting the test signals into the Denon rather than into the projector directly? Help!

You need to provide more information.

You say that the High Def channels are worse. Worse in what way?

Is your satellite source also running through the Denon? In other words, are you using your Denon to switch all of your sources or is the satellite plugged directly into the PJ?
post #1543 of 1782
Quote:
Originally Posted by TomHuffman View Post

You need to provide more information.

You say that the High Def channels are worse. Worse in what way?

Is your satellite source also running through the Denon? In other words, are you using your Denon to switch all of your sources or is the satellite plugged directly into the PJ?

On the calibrated user1 blu ray looked superb but the hdtv channels and hdtv dvr recordings were dim and lacked contrast. Maybe the gamma was way off. Adding brightness filled in the too dark shadows but made the images a bit washed out. When I switched out of the calibrated mode into the other ones like THX and cinema 1 the picture improved alot.

Both blu ray and satellite run thru the receiver where it is switched. The satellilte is not plugged directly into the projector. All signals are on HDMI between componants.
post #1544 of 1782
Quote:
Originally Posted by mark meyers View Post

On the calibrated user1 blu ray looked superb but the hdtv channels and hdtv dvr recordings were dim and lacked contrast. Maybe the gamma was way off. Adding brightness filled in the too dark shadows but made the images a bit washed out. When I switched out of the calibrated mode into the other ones like THX and cinema 1 the picture improved alot.

Both blu ray and satellite run thru the receiver where it is switched. The satellilte is not plugged directly into the projector. All signals are on HDMI between componants.

Without having to further explain your issues, your calibrator should fix the issue. At a minimum, the calibrator should have set user memories for the different input sources. If you contact your calibrator and he fixes the issues you have, all is well. If he doesn't respond or is not willing to fix your issues, then you can really gripe and let everyone know who to stay away from.
post #1545 of 1782
look like this JVC model is a winner nowaday.I saw the picture and I agreed.
post #1546 of 1782
Glen, agree with you
Anyway, in most cases, must be specified before the kind of work the calibrator must do. Not everybody perform different calibrations for different sources in different banks/memories for free ...
Usually, must be threated before, analizing the costumer layout and his needs in order to stated a price ...
Often a Customer could ask a Calibration for different sources and different reference standards ... see HD (REC709) and SD (REC601).
This may involve double time for a professional to realize the service and the performance, and couldn't be for free or at the same price of a "simple" one source, one standard calibration
post #1547 of 1782
Quote:
Originally Posted by mark meyers View Post

On the calibrated user1 blu ray looked superb but the hdtv channels and hdtv dvr recordings were dim and lacked contrast. Maybe the gamma was way off. Adding brightness filled in the too dark shadows but made the images a bit washed out. When I switched out of the calibrated mode into the other ones like THX and cinema 1 the picture improved alot.

Both blu ray and satellite run thru the receiver where it is switched. The satellilte is not plugged directly into the projector. All signals are on HDMI between componants.

To sidestep the issue of the quality of calibration for a second --it may be possible for you to see some immediate improvement by trying what is to follow.

I think the problem you have (based on your description of the black levels etc. being poor/or washed out) is that your Satellite receiver and your RS20 do not have the correct settings for the bit ranges covering black to saturation. These settings are usually called out as Standard (Video) or Enhanced (PC) and will significantly impact the darkness/lightness of the image and change the Brightness and Contrast control settings on the RS20. For example there are 2 ways I can set up my RS20 that will work depending on the selection of Standard and Enhanced in the source and also the RS20 (the RS20 control is under "Input Signal -- HDMI --Input ).
RS 20 settings:
1 Contrast = 0 and Brightness =0.
2. Contrast = 11 and Brightness =-6

While waiting for action from your calibrator I suggest you might experiment with these 2 settings on your RS20- when using the satellite Receiver as a source. Be sure and use the new calibrated CMS (I assume he attempted to calibrate the CMS in some fashion) with these RS20 Contrast and Brightness settings. You can also try changing the HDMI input setting to Standard or Enhanced when using the Satellite receiver. If you are lucky - some of your problem may be removed.

I use DirecTV receivers and the RS20 settings (Contrast 11 ,Brightness of -6 and Input Signal -HDMI -Input =Enhanced) needed for Blu Ray and the Satellite receiver are identical on my system.

The above is just a suggested quick try at correcting some of your problem. Certainly the person doing your calibration should sort this all out for you.

KT
post #1548 of 1782
Quote:
Originally Posted by mark meyers View Post

On the calibrated user1 blu ray looked superb but the hdtv channels and hdtv dvr recordings were dim and lacked contrast. Maybe the gamma was way off. Adding brightness filled in the too dark shadows but made the images a bit washed out. When I switched out of the calibrated mode into the other ones like THX and cinema 1 the picture improved alot.

Both blu ray and satellite run thru the receiver where it is switched. The satellilte is not plugged directly into the projector. All signals are on HDMI between componants.

OK, a couple of things to look for. First, even though you have a single HDMI input going into the PJ, the PJ may "see" a different source when you switch the Denon from Blu-ray to broadcast. The first thing to check is if the calibrated settings remain the same when you switch. You should be able to look at the user menu to tell.

Second, if the calibrated PJ settings are the same with both sources, then the difference is in the sources themselves. There shouldn't be any difference with respect to grayscale, gamma, or color. However, I agree with KTTV Images that the black floor could be different. Unfortunately, it is difficult to test this with broadcast sources. About the best you can do is to record a fade-to-black sequence (assuming you have a DVR). Play this back and pause. By raising and lowering the brightness control you should be able to tell the point at which raising the brightness control further simply adds noise to the image. This is the setting for brightness. Without instruments to measure, this is about the best you can do. Some broadcast channels will show test patterns that you can use for this, but these are hard to find.

Other than black level, I am struggling to think of what substantial difference you should see between the 2 sources.
post #1549 of 1782
EDIT: wrong thread
post #1550 of 1782
Guys, I'm a bit embarrassed to admit it, but I bought a EyeOneLT colorimeter several months ago and only yesterday finally got to learning how to use HCFR to do my GrayScale calibration. I have been using the settings Jason put in initially, and I now have 460 hrs on the lamp so it's reasonable that it has wandered.

One of the reasons for my procrastination is that I'm a 'mac person', and on a pc (for running HCFR) didn't see how to get the driver for the EyeOne into the 'same directory' as HCFR. But an AVS buddy from Palo Alto, Les Alderson (htwaits on the forum), was up yesterday to get his first look at a RS20, and he solved this problem for me.

So with the grayscale calibrated (see below), I'm using THX with Color = 0 and find it plenty 'colorful'. Contrast is 0, and Brightness is 0 or 1. When I use a pluge pattern that has other bright material on the screen, I can't see the 2% bar with Br = 0, and need Br = 1. If it's a pluge pattern with a dark background, I can see the 2% bar with Br = 0. So I'm inclined to go with Br = +1.

Here are the GrayScale/Color Temp settings that I come up with; I know that they vary (perhaps considerably) from one pj to the next, but I would appreciate hearing from you if these seem within the realm of what you find:

RGB Gain = 0, -16, -40; RGB Offsets = -5, -4, 0.

Several people have suggested keeping all the Offsets at 0, but I couldn't balance R, G, and B this way. (But I was careful to make sure that I used no boosts for the offsets, as has been emphasized.)

And finally, even to my unsophisticated videophile experience, I find the pq to be noticeably better. The colors seem deeper, though completely natural, and the 'intrascene CR' or whatever, seems even better/crispier.
post #1551 of 1782
Quote:
Originally Posted by millerwill View Post

Guys, I'm a bit embarrassed to admit it, but I bought a EyeOneLT colorimeter several months ago and only yesterday finally got to learning how to use HCFR to do my GrayScale calibration. I have been using the settings Jason put in initially, and I now have 460 hrs on the lamp so it's reasonable that it has wandered.

One of the reasons for my procrastination is that I'm a 'mac person', and on a pc (for running HCFR) didn't see how to get the driver for the EyeOne into the 'same directory' as HCFR. But an AVS buddy from Palo Alto, Les Alderson (htwaits on the forum), was up yesterday to get his first look at a RS20, and he solved this problem for me.

So with the grayscale calibrated (see below), I'm using THX with Color = 0 and find it plenty 'colorful'. Contrast is 0, and Brightness is 0 or 1. When I use a pluge pattern that has other bright material on the screen, I can't see the 2% bar with Br = 0, and need Br = 1. If it's a pluge pattern with a dark background, I can see the 2% bar with Br = 0. So I'm inclined to go with Br = +1.

Here are the GrayScale/Color Temp settings that I come up with; I know that they vary (perhaps considerably) from one pj to the next, but I would appreciate hearing from you if these seem within the realm of what you find:

RGB Gain = 0, -16, -40; RGB Offsets = -5, -4, 0.

Several people have suggested keeping all the Offsets at 0, but I couldn't balance R, G, and B this way. (But I was careful to make sure that I used no boosts for the offsets, as has been emphasized.)

And finally, even to my unsophisticated videophile experience, I find the pq to be noticeably better. The colors seem deeper, though completely natural, and the 'intrascene CR' or whatever, seems even better/crispier.

Millerwill, glad to see you've beaten procrastination!

Your gains look in line, but your offsets look very negative, and it's surprising you have to take that much red out. Are you doing it by eye, or are you using the i1? The latter is not of much use below 30 IRE, so make sure if you use the meter to work on the offsets to tick "average many read in low light" in HCFR, and to use 30 IRE to balance offsets. Otherwise you're calibrating the meter more than the PJ...

A good way to check this is to check the offsets after you've moved the meter, say 24h later. It's unlikely you'll find the values still apply.

I would trust the i1 at 30 IRE and above, and below that make any adjustments primarily with your eyes. I usually try to adjust so that I get the best result between 30-100, and I ignore 0-20 unless there is something that I can see by eye.

Also make sure you calibrate with the same iris setting as the one you use most often.

Finally, re your brightness setting, it's normal not to see 2% grey if there is another bright area on the pattern screen, so I would stay at 0 as long as you can see a +2 with a normal pluge. Brightness at +1 is probably hurting your black level quite a lot, especially on a HP! Another way to check is, on the pattern with a pluge and no bright area, watch the black background rather than the +2. If the background gets ever so slightly lighter with +1, stay at 0. Your optimum brightness level should not make your black lighter.

Now of course I don't have much more experience than yourself in calibration, so we should expect some of the real experts to correct me.
post #1552 of 1782
Manni, Tx much for the feedback! Yes, I'm using the I1 and 30 IRE to set the Offsets, but will go through it all again tonight and check consistency, as you suggest. I adjust the Offsets to get R, G, and B all at 100 +/-1, without using any boosts. (Similarly for the Gains at 80 IRE.) And I note the the RGB graph was incredibly flat, with R, G, and B right on top of each other.

Also, I will go back to BR = 0; just as you note, I saw the discussion in Curt Palme's 'Dummies Guide' (that I'm following), that one should only see the 2% pluge bar with a dark background.

I use Iris = 0 (low lamp) and calibrate this way.

Anyway, the above was my first try, so I could have done any number of things poorly, e.g., getting the I1 positioned to get the very highest ftL off the screen. I'll put more effort into that the next time!
post #1553 of 1782
THX mode: -1 -41 -64 0 0 0
User mode: -1 -34 -62 0 0 -1

Difficult to understand why there is so much deviation from unit to unit.
post #1554 of 1782
If you speak about Color Temp ... it's almost Normal and this is not only a unit to unit differences that is the less, but "chain", screens and rooms that are unique combinations in every setup
post #1555 of 1782
millerwill - just to clarify, the concern is not keeping offsets at 0, but rather making sure NOT to use ANY amount of positive offset. Negative offsets are fine. Though as others have posted I wouldn't think you'd need more than a click or two.
post #1556 of 1782
Quote:
Originally Posted by leDahu View Post

THX mode: -1 -41 -64 0 0 0
User mode: -1 -34 -62 0 0 -1

Difficult to understand why there is so much deviation from unit to unit.

Variation like this is normal and is due primarily to the bulb. There is quite a lot of variance from bulb to bulb. This has also been my experience with other pjs as well.
post #1557 of 1782
Quote:
Originally Posted by lovingdvd View Post

millerwill - just to clarify, the concern is not keeping offsets at 0, but rather making sure NOT to use ANY amount of positive offset. Negative offsets are fine. Though as others have posted I wouldn't think you'd need more than a click or two.

Thanks, that is the assumption I was going on. Now that I'm more confident that I know what I'm doing, I'm going to re-do the grayscale tonight and check for consistency.

Question: How critical is the precise location of the I1 colorimeter? Is it imp to have it in the absolutely perfect position?
post #1558 of 1782
Quote:
Originally Posted by mark meyers View Post

On the calibrated user1 blu ray looked superb but the hdtv channels and hdtv dvr recordings were dim and lacked contrast. Maybe the gamma was way off. Adding brightness filled in the too dark shadows but made the images a bit washed out. When I switched out of the calibrated mode into the other ones like THX and cinema 1 the picture improved alot.

Both blu ray and satellite run thru the receiver where it is switched. The satellilte is not plugged directly into the projector. All signals are on HDMI between componants.

Mark, I know exactly what you're talking about. The problem is the 2 sources and also how you're comparing the sources vs. your past experience. Probably a LCD or Plasma right?

If you like how the picture looks with movies, User 1, use one of the other two settings to adjust the cable picture to your liking. I did this for football or other HD sports channels. Use the calibrated color selection and tweak gamma, brightness, contrast ext. I got the colors nice and bright just like on my old plasma, well not "just" like but closer. Hope this helps.
post #1559 of 1782
Quote:
Originally Posted by millerwill View Post

Question: How critical is the precise location of the I1 colorimeter? Is it imp to have it in the absolutely perfect position?

It is important to maximise the fL you get, mainly because it's the only way to make sure you're not reading part of the shadow of the meter. There are four little sensors on the "belly" of the meter, and if one of them is reading from its shadow, this throws the whole calibration off (and is obviously not repeatable). So the best thing to do is try to put the meter slightlly off axis from the center of the window, so that it casts its shadow to one side of the window, and when you read the center of the window there is no shadow there. It may be different with a HP screen because of the narrower angle, so experiment (you may get better results by reading slightly above the meter rather than slightly sideways), but definitely try to maximise the fL by playing on all the axis on your tripod. I have written a few more tips here http://www.avforums.com/forums/dlp-l...ml#post8800777.
post #1560 of 1782
Quote:
Originally Posted by Manni01 View Post

It is important to maximise the fL you get, mainly because it's the only way to make sure you're not reading part of the shadow of the meter. There are four little sensors on the "belly" of the meter, and if one of them is reading from its shadow, this throws the whole calibration off (and is obviously not repeatable). So the best thing to do is try to put the meter slightlly off axis from the center of the window, so that it casts its shadow to one side of the window, and when you read the center of the window there is no shadow there. It may be different with a HP screen because of the narrower angle, so experiment (you may get better results by reading slightly above the meter rather than slightly sideways), but definitely try to maximise the fL by playing on all the axis on your tripod. I have written a few more tips here http://www.avforums.com/forums/dlp-l...ml#post8800777.

Thanks, Manni. Yes, I've read your earlier notes on this and did play a bit with maximizing the ftL. Just wondered if this was an extremely critical point. I'll give it extra attention on my next try.
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