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Official JVC RS20 / HD750 Calibration and CMS thread - Page 55

post #1621 of 1782
3/18/09 at 4:00pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by CIR-Engineering View Post

I asked Jim if he could write me a note to post to the forums to help explain the hypothesized situation with the RS20 and this is what he said.

The RS20's CMS clearly has issues, but I seriously doubt that the problem is simply a matter of the color space they used when engineering the solution. Sharp's CMS works in the HSV color space, which is very similar to HSL, and it works flawlessly. Also, the Epson CMS appears to operate in HSL and it works fine as well. I actually think that the problem with the RS20 CMS is more serious than Jim suggests.

It appears to me that the problem lies in the fact that the "saturation" control isn't really that at all, but simply a chroma gain circuit operating independently over each of the pri/sec. colors. That, along with the insufficient range of adjustment (which suggests a limitation in the hardware), is most of what you need to explain its deficiencies.
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post #1622 of 1782
3/18/09 at 6:14pm
I think the time has long passed for a spokesperson from JVC to indicate to us whether a fix is possible for the CMS. Their silence on the issue is deafening.
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post #1623 of 1782
3/18/09 at 7:03pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by TomHuffman View Post

The RS20's CMS clearly has issues, but I seriously doubt that the problem is simply a matter of the color space they used when engineering the solution. Sharp's CMS works in the HSV color space, which is very similar to HSL, and it works flawlessly. Also, the Epson CMS appears to operate in HSL and it works fine as well. I actually think that the problem with the RS20 CMS is more serious than Jim suggests.

It appears to me that the problem lies in the fact that the "saturation" control isn't really that at all, but simply a chroma gain circuit operating independently over each of the pri/sec. colors. That, along with the insufficient range of adjustment (which suggests a limitation in the hardware), is most of what you need to explain its deficiencies.

Craig -
Thanks for insight.

Craig, Tom, et al. -

Is there a list of projector CMS implentations - eg HSL, HSV, RGB, etc.
Or does that matter?
It seems like it does in this case but also there are other problems.

So, if JVC has advertised a CMS that not only doesn't work (I mean, it does some), but CAN'T work...what happens.

Mike
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post #1624 of 1782
3/18/09 at 8:13pm
OK, I measured the lumen output of my pj tonight. There is 513 hrs on the lamp. On High lamp, with the Iris at 0, and the pj at its min throw and right near the center of the screen, I measure 380 lumens with my CA 813 meter (8.1 fc on a 47 sq ft screen). This is thus the max brightness the pj can produce at this point and is ~42% of the rated 900 lumens (with a new lamp); perhaps reasonable, but maybe my lamp is a bit below average (I know there is a fairly wide range in lamp performance).

On my 126" diag HP screen this amounts to ~ 23 ftL (8.1 x 2.8 gain) since the configuration is optimal for the HP screen. This is very nice, but I would not like it to dim much more. Will really be nice when we have a bright light source other than these lamps.
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post #1625 of 1782
3/19/09 at 12:07am
Quote:
Originally Posted by howdydoody View Post

I think the time has long passed for a spokesperson from JVC to indicate to us whether a fix is possible for the CMS. Their silence on the issue is deafening.

JVC have confirmed - through dealers and local representatives - that they have been working on the issue, and that a beta firmware upgrade is going to be made available imminently to a select few (see firmware upgrade thread). Until we can see how much they have managed to improve the situation (or not) regarding the CMS, I can't see much point to complain or make predictions. This being said I agree with you the communication could have been handled better, even if I can easily understand the (legal) reasons why they have avoided an official aknowledgement of the issue itself or whether it is possible to fix it.
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post #1626 of 1782
3/19/09 at 6:07am
Quote:
Originally Posted by TomHuffman View Post

The RS20's CMS clearly has issues, but I seriously doubt that the problem is simply a matter of the color space they used when engineering the solution. Sharp's CMS works in the HSV color space, which is very similar to HSL, and it works flawlessly. Also, the Epson CMS appears to operate in HSL and it works fine as well. I actually think that the problem with the RS20 CMS is more serious than Jim suggests.

It appears to me that the problem lies in the fact that the "saturation" control isn't really that at all, but simply a chroma gain circuit operating independently over each of the pri/sec. colors. That, along with the insufficient range of adjustment (which suggests a limitation in the hardware), is most of what you need to explain its deficiencies.

Well, we simply can't know for sure what JVC did with their CMS. However, simply looking at their nomenclature regarding "brightness" "saturation" and "hue"... these are HLS designations.

HLS should not be used to adjust the color gamut if you expect to get reliably accurate linearity on the gamut. If one attempts to correct the gamut with HLS, you are going to be able to nail the gamut at a point, but not across a stimulus range.

One of the other points that Jim makes in his email to me is the actual designation of a CMS. The status of having a "color management system" is really quite vague. I mean, most calibrators and enthusiasts know what they expect when they hear that a projector has a CMS, but what exactly a CMS actually is, is really quite vague.

The RS20 does have a functioning CMS... it just can't fix the color gamut as it is implemented, but it could fix a color decoder brilliantly.

Look, I hope JVC can fix this. I calibrate lots of RS20's both with and without Lumagens. I would really like to be able to get a better gamut out of a stock RS20.

craigr
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post #1627 of 1782
3/19/09 at 6:21am
You guys are making be scared that the CMS cannot be fixed.
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post #1628 of 1782
3/19/09 at 6:52am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lawguy View Post

You guys are making be scared that the CMS cannot be fixed.

That's their intention.

We could also calmly wait until we see what the new firmware brings to the table ("imminent" means the waiting game shouln't be too long), and then look at the facts.

Either the CMS is fixed with the new firmware, or it isn't.

If it is, great.

If it isn't, it just means a different line of action.

There is nothing to be afraid about!
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post #1629 of 1782
3/19/09 at 7:00am
I really like Lumagen's products and have owned them (Radiance and HDQ) in the past, but I have been telling people that asked that although a Radiance may allow your RS20 to measure better, it will only measure SLIGHTLY better and I doubt that anyone could tell the difference by the picture alone. I've got greyscale, gamut and gamma that measure very nicely so it would be very hard for me to justify the Radiance expense just to feel better about how the gamut measures.

Besides the fact that it is advertised to have one, a working CMS, will give us more flexibility and the ability to really dial in custom settings (for those who like the gamut a little bit wider than what THX gives us.
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post #1630 of 1782
3/19/09 at 7:31am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lawguy View Post

I really like Lumagen's products and have owned them (Radiance and HDQ) in the past, but I have been telling people that asked that although a Radiance may allow your RS20 to measure better, it will only measure SLIGHTLY better and I doubt that anyone could tell the difference by the picture alone. I've got greyscale, gamut and gamma that measure very nicely so it would be very hard for me to justify the Radiance expense just to feel better about how the gamut measures.

Besides the fact that it is advertised to have one, a working CMS, will give us more flexibility and the ability to really dial in custom settings (for those who like the gamut a little bit wider than what THX gives us.

Being an optimist, I refuse to discuss my options until I know whether the CMS is fixed or not. But buying a Radiance is definitely not one of them. I have already paid for the functionality!
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post #1631 of 1782
3/19/09 at 12:41pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Manni01 View Post

That's their intention.

We could also calmly wait until we see what the new firmware brings to the table ("imminent" means the waiting game shouln't be too long), and then look at the facts.

Either the CMS is fixed with the new firmware, or it isn't.

If it is, great.

If it isn't, it just means a different line of action.

There is nothing to be afraid about!

For the record, my intention is not to make anyone scared. I am passing along information from a highly knowledgeable professional. If you aren't interested in what Jim Peterson says than ignore my post. It is speculation after all and only that.

I do hope that JVC can fix the gamut with a FW update. But it really may depend on their hardware implementation. We will find out shortly when the FW becomes available.

craigr
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post #1632 of 1782
3/19/09 at 1:00pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by CIR-Engineering View Post

For the record, my intention is not to make anyone scared. I am passing along information from a highly knowledgeable professional. If you aren't interested in what Jim Peterson says than ignore my post. It is speculation after all and only that.

I do hope that JVC can fix the gamut with a FW update. But it really may depend on their hardware implementation. We will find out shortly when the FW becomes available.

craigr

I'm not scared I am perfectly happy with my projector now. If it gets any better it's just gravy.
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post #1633 of 1782
3/19/09 at 1:12pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by CIR-Engineering View Post

For the record, my intention is not to make anyone scared. I am passing along information from a highly knowledgeable professional. If you aren't interested in what Jim Peterson says than ignore my post. It is speculation after all and only that.

I do hope that JVC can fix the gamut with a FW update. But it really may depend on their hardware implementation. We will find out shortly when the FW becomes available.

craigr

Sorry Craig, this is a misunderstaning. I never really thought your intention was to scare anyone, I thought my wink made it clear I wasn't serious. My comment was directed to the reaction to the information, not to the information itself.

Your feedback is - as always - very appreciated, I read Jim's analysis with a lot of interest, it's just that I don't see the point to panic at this stage. This is indeed partly speculation, and we should find out soon what the outcome is.

If we didn't know that a beta firmware was about to be released, I could understand the angst, but given the fact we've been informed its release is imminent, I don't see any reason not to stay calm, have a look at the upgrade, and reach a fact-based conclusion. I don't know either if the problem can be entirely solved with a firmware upgrade, but nothing tells me for sure it can't.

We've been patient for three months (which I think was right, as JVC, just like Lumagen, deserve to be given a chance to get it right as long as they are working on it). So let's be patient for a couple more days or weeks!
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post #1634 of 1782
3/19/09 at 7:12pm
Quote:


JVC have confirmed - through dealers and local representatives - that they have been working on the issue, and that a beta firmware upgrade is going to be made available imminently to a select few (see firmware upgrade thread). Until we can see how much they have managed to improve the situation (or not) regarding the CMS, I can't see much point to complain or make predictions. This being said I agree with you the communication could have been handled better, even if I can easily understand the (legal) reasons why they have avoided an official aknowledgement of the issue itself or whether it is possible to fix it.

I am, of course, not currently looking to resolve this through legal mechanisms. I would like a direct comment from a JVC rep, not a reference to someone that has heard from a dealer that has heard from a representative. Actually, I would be reassured if my dealer (AVS) had heard something that they would relay. This has not happened yet. Why should I be reassured that the problem can be fixed? I think at this point they would be able to tell us if the CMS can be fixed or if it will forever remain broken. If they can't tell us that they know this at this time I am certainly not hopeful.
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post #1635 of 1782
3/19/09 at 11:59pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by howdydoody View Post

I am, of course, not currently looking to resolve this through legal mechanisms. I would like a direct comment from a JVC rep, not a reference to someone that has heard from a dealer that has heard from a representative. Actually, I would be reassured if my dealer (AVS) had heard something that they would relay. This has not happened yet. Why should I be reassured that the problem can be fixed? I think at this point they would be able to tell us if the CMS can be fixed or if it will forever remain broken. If they can't tell us that they know this at this time I am certainly not hopeful.

My dealer (Elliot), who is in touch with Alex, the head designer in Japan and who has launched all the JVC PJs in the UK, has confirmed personally in the firmware upgrade thread that a new beta firmware is about to be available for testing. I have no reasons to doubt his words. This is as good as it will be I'm afraid. Again, we all agree this hasn't been handled ideally by JVC from a communication point of view, but at least we should know very soon if the problem is fixed or not. You will not get an official statement from JVC, but you'll get a new firmware and can then decide about your options.
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post #1636 of 1782
3/20/09 at 6:13am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Manni01 View Post

Sorry Craig, this is a misunderstaning. I never really thought your intention was to scare anyone, I thought my wink made it clear I wasn't serious. My comment was directed to the reaction to the information, not to the information itself.

Your feedback is - as always - very appreciated, I read Jim's analysis with a lot of interest, it's just that I don't see the point to panic at this stage. This is indeed partly speculation, and we should find out soon what the outcome is.

If we didn't know that a beta firmware was about to be released, I could understand the angst, but given the fact we've been informed its release is imminent, I don't see any reason not to stay calm, have a look at the upgrade, and reach a fact-based conclusion. I don't know either if the problem can be entirely solved with a firmware upgrade, but nothing tells me for sure it can't.

We've been patient for three months (which I think was right, as JVC, just like Lumagen, deserve to be given a chance to get it right as long as they are working on it). So let's be patient for a couple more days or weeks!

Ah, no problem

And I agree with everything you just wrote. We're all just guesing until JVC puts out the FW update!

craigr
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post #1637 of 1782
3/20/09 at 6:18am
I have to say guys, I have been calibrating displays for a long time and typically a manufacturer will make very little effort to fix anything unless it truly is broken. I know, I know, the CMS doesn't do what you all expected, but the TV turns on and does give a pleasing image.

JVC seems to be doing more than what I would have expected.

craigr
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post #1638 of 1782
3/21/09 at 1:24pm
hi guys
the CMS controls do not function how one would expect them to.
The good thing is, you dont need them....just use the THX mode for very good primary alignment to Rec 709. You will still need to tweek the gray scale though.
Gregg
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post #1639 of 1782
3/21/09 at 1:31pm
Here is a post calibration report

THX Mode requires a DARK ENVIRONMENT, if you have room lights on, or if you have reflective walls and ceilings, light will be reflected back to the screen and affect things like color saturation and black level.

 

Christian Gonzalez post.pdf 125.009765625k . file
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post #1640 of 1782
3/21/09 at 1:41pm
Hi Gregg
Unlucly, in most cases, THX is limited in use it's gamma settings that could not match exactly the best performance for any room around the world ..
In my case, Tricked THX ( with grey scale tweek ) give me a too flat image, loosing in pop and "air" around the subjects/objects ...
Plus .. a bit of image enhancement is pretty god to be applied as sharpness and detail to add a bit of puch and razor to the global look
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post #1641 of 1782
3/21/09 at 1:44pm
right, that seems to be the down side....no ability to tweek for imperfect rooms.
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post #1642 of 1782
3/21/09 at 2:10pm
Pardon me Gregg ... is not a problem only in "imperfect" rooms ....
You can have 2 "perfect" rooms and the same machine in THX mode will performs different in each one .... better in one respect the other ...
It's Not the case to "Build" a "perfect" room around the RS20 and it's THX preset
THX presets was born for people that wish to achieve out of the box the best approximation of a calibration and didn't intend to deep in precise and customized settings.
There are too much variables in a room, screens and source chains to make a preset universal !
The great merit of the THX presets is it's linearity and closeness to the 709 Reference, and this could help to cure the oversaturation ... but STOP !!
In order to have a precise and customized settings with a perfect Gamma and RGB tracking with a small dE amount, THX is too limited
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post #1643 of 1782
3/21/09 at 2:31pm
guess we are going to agree to disagree. Not sure what you are trying to argue. I am in agreement with what you are saying.
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post #1644 of 1782
3/21/09 at 5:17pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Highlander_AVS View Post

The great merit of the THX presets is it's linearity and closeness to the 709 Reference, and this could help to cure the oversaturation ... but STOP !!
In order to have a precise and customized settings with a perfect Gamma and RGB tracking with a small dE amount, THX is too limited

The RGB tracking that Gregg reports shows dE below 3 across the entire range. There's no visible improvement there to be had, so not sure what you are referring to.
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post #1645 of 1782
3/21/09 at 7:01pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lawguy View Post

I really like Lumagen's products and have owned them (Radiance and HDQ) in the past, but I have been telling people that asked that although a Radiance may allow your RS20 to measure better, it will only measure SLIGHTLY better and I doubt that anyone could tell the difference by the picture alone. I've got greyscale, gamut and gamma that measure very nicely so it would be very hard for me to justify the Radiance expense just to feel better about how the gamut measures.

Besides the fact that it is advertised to have one, a working CMS, will give us more flexibility and the ability to really dial in custom settings (for those who like the gamut a little bit wider than what THX gives us.

I am happy with the RS20 and I was one of the biggest complainers about the oversaturation of the RS1. If the RS1 had a THX setting, I likely would have never been motivated to upgrade. I'm damn glad I did though, as the other improvements are such that I would not go back to the RS1.
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post #1646 of 1782
3/21/09 at 7:42pm
I think that there will be quite a few sour faces when everyone comes to realize that a firmware fix will not be enough to fully 'fix' the CMS issues. The hardware components and operating systems which JVC implemented coincide with the budget on which the projector was designed with. There pro class commercial products have fully functional CMS systems so it seems that they have the ability to implement into there home theater products if people were willing to pay more than what there target consumers want to.

Toms's post of #935 really is the best one in this whole thread.

The THX mode being as close as possible to a reasonably accurate one aside from the slight grey scale wavering is no accident. If someone really wants to get to the inside of why JVC seems unable to get the CMS issues right then they should look at the whole licensing with THX and the 'lockout' from further adjustments in that mode.

Hardware changes will mean a 'new model'.
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post #1647 of 1782
3/22/09 at 12:46am
Quote:
Originally Posted by TomHuffman View Post

The RGB tracking that Gregg reports shows dE below 3 across the entire range. There's no visible improvement there to be had, so not sure what you are referring to.

Tom
Other than having a "perfect" room as Gregg said, it's difficult to obtain a RGB tracking below 2 and with a mean of 1,5 across the entire range with THX only without tweeking in Gamma settings in primaries that could need a retouch

You could be lucky to find a situation in which room, screen and other variables could match or near match THX preset and RGB could be alligneed only in use of Gain and Offset controls, but this is not a Rule ...

I'm sorry to repeat ... THX preset is a great value added for lucky or "lazy" (said with jocking feels) guys, but cannot solve and match at all for a big part of people.
Anyway, I never believed in the existance of an "Universal" setting for All over the world ! Both for Video and much more for Audio !! It's simply impossible
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post #1648 of 1782
3/22/09 at 1:21am
Frank
Simply, cannot be agree ....
We have payed for a working, as stated by JVC ( see the info specifications), CMS and for a THX. It seems to me we all add money in order to have a plus over the Entry Level model
Plus, other Brands, even staying in Consumer segment, seem to own a working CMS ( see Sharp for example.).
So, I can't be agree with your concerns that can only give to JVC the Alibi to didn't fully fix it now speculating into fix it in the next generation machines ...

Please, see the wrote specifications of what we buy !
Is CMS works as it was stated ?? Can you achieve with this implementation what is was stated for ??
I dont' think so !!
At this point, if JVC cannot fix it by "software" it's not a problem of mine !!!
This just to be clear with my thoughts, and I'll procede that line in asking a full fix or a full replacement or MY Money back or money compensation !!

We wait 3 months, right , I'll wait a bit more to see what's happen ...even if at today I'm still confident !
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post #1649 of 1782
3/22/09 at 4:01am
Quote:
Originally Posted by highlander_avs View Post

frank
simply, cannot be agree ....
We have payed for a working, as stated by jvc ( see the info specifications), cms and for a thx. It seems to me we all add money in order to have a plus over the entry level model
plus, other brands, even staying in consumer segment, seem to own a working cms ( see sharp for example.).
So, i can't be agree with your concerns that can only give to jvc the alibi to didn't fully fix it now speculating into fix it in the next generation machines ...

Please, see the wrote specifications of what we buy !
Is cms works as it was stated ?? Can you achieve with this implementation what is was stated for ??
I dont' think so !!
At this point, if jvc cannot fix it by "software" it's not a problem of mine !!!
This just to be clear with my thoughts, and i'll procede that line in asking a full fix or a full replacement or my money back or money compensation !!

We wait 3 months, right , i'll wait a bit more to see what's happen ...even if at today i'm still confident !

+1

I paid for gamut color accuracy (which THX offers) AND 11 step greyscale (which THX doesn't offer) AND gamma adjustment (which THX doesn't offer) AND advanced controls (sharpness) which THX doesn't offer. I don't want to have to chose between a flat, gamut accurate picture with THX and a less accurate but better picture (thanks to better greyscale, custom gamma and sharpness adjustment) through a flawed CMS user mode.

You guys must be installing RS-20 in white living rooms. In a dedicated room (bat cave), there is no way I can live with a 2.1 gamma.

I understand you want to sell and install RS-20, and you want your customers to believe they get the ultimate picture, but in my environment (which I built around the RS-20), THX s**cks compared to any of the custom presets available here. FLAT and DULL.
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post #1650 of 1782
3/22/09 at 4:29am
Reading again my posts, wish to add: Sorry for my bad english ...
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