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Official JVC RS20 / HD750 Calibration and CMS thread - Page 56

post #1651 of 1782
Quote:
Originally Posted by Highlander_AVS View Post

Reading again my posts, wish to add: Sorry for my bad english ...

Highlander_AVS -

Collectively (in general) our Italian writing and speaking sucks, so no worries on your English.

Mike
post #1652 of 1782
Quote:


We have payed for a working, as stated by JVC ( see the info specifications), CMS and for a THX. It seems to me we all add money in order to have a plus over the Entry Level model
Plus, other Brands, even staying in Consumer segment, seem to own a working CMS ( see Sharp for example.).
So, I can't be agree with your concerns that can only give to JVC the Alibi to didn't fully fix it now speculating into fix it in the next generation machines ...

Well, I am another that is going to be disagreeing with you. The PJ is what it is.
The examples that you cite are flawed....even the Pioneer Elite plasmas have a very poorly implimented CMS system. Even more so with the Sharp panels.
post #1653 of 1782
Quote:
Originally Posted by Manni01 View Post

You guys must be installing RS-20 in white living rooms. In a dedicated room (bat cave), there is no way I can live with a 2.1 gamma.

On the gamma subject:

Gregg,

Do you have an opinion about display gamma (especially for dark rooms)? From what I recall Charles Poyton has said that the CRT monitors that have been the most common for mastering for years are about 2.5 gamma and is frustrated that there doesn't seem to be any industry standard for gamma for displays as things move away from those CRTs. Others claim that these CRT monitors used for mastering are set up to 2.2. I believe Joe Kane says that his A800B projector is setup to emulate the gamma of one of these CRTs and a friend with an A800B used a test pattern to look at the gamma and told me it looked like it was 2.5 (at least at the point of the test pattern he made for this). So, there seems to be some disagreement out there about the best gamma to use during playback to get close to the way things were during mastering, although it seems that most agree that it is somewhere in the 2.2 to 2.5 range.

A low on/off CR can cause low intra-image CRs in scenes with only pixels in the dark range (like 10%stim and under) if the gamma number is at the higher end and so this could push people to use a gamma number that is lower. Low ANSI CR could have a similar effect (but mostly in other kinds of scenes). One difference between 2.2 and 2.5 is the contrast ratio between 80%stim and 20%stim, with 2.2 having around 20:1 for that range and 2.5 having around 30:1 for that range.

--Darin
post #1654 of 1782
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gregg Loewen View Post

Well, I am another that is going to be disagreeing with you. The PJ is what it is.

Very disappointing sentence!
Are you prepared to accept to be delivered by your dealer a car with two wheels instead of four?
Senseless.
post #1655 of 1782
Quote:
Originally Posted by TomHuffman View Post

The RGB tracking that Gregg reports shows dE below 3 across the entire range. There's no visible improvement there to be had, so not sure what you are referring to.

I think he is referring to the fact that you can't do a custom gamma in THX mode. Gamma is low.

If you couldn't do the service mode fix for grayscale in THX mode, it would be a shame. The calibration results for THX mode that others have posted look great, after the grayscale tweak, with one exception, the gamma.

Dan
post #1656 of 1782
ledahu,

I think we are going to have to agree to disagree.
many PJs and other displays have controls that do work as we would expect them to.

The measured gamma on the RS20 in THX mode is just fine. Not one of you would be able to watch a moving image and discern a 2.1 vs 2.2 vs 2.3 gamma.
post #1657 of 1782
Quote:


Well, I am another that is going to be disagreeing with you. The PJ is what it is.
The examples that you cite are flawed....even the Pioneer Elite plasmas have a very poorly implimented CMS system. Even more so with the Sharp panels.

From a legal standpoint, I will definitely agree with you. JVC is at little legal risk. They have, however, not met the consumer expectations with regard to the implementation of the CMS. This is a PR problem, not a legal one. That is why I am disappointed in the lack of a JVC response on this forum. I do think they are working on new firmware as has been suggested by others in this thread and in the firmware thread. We do not, however, have any idea as to whether the hardware will allow what would be considered by most here to be a CMS fix. If the hardware does not allow it, the firmware "fix" may be quite limited in scope and disappointing. As I have said before, I would be most happy to hear directly from JVC that the initial release was done to allow the projector to get in our hands at a timeframe before the CMS was ready. I would be ecstatic to know that the hardware will allow for a complete fix. I do not want to buy a Radiance XD. I remain pessimistic without direct information from JVC. The lack of direct response is an indicator of problems (of course, I could be wrong - they might just have poor communication skills).
post #1658 of 1782
Quote:
Originally Posted by howdydoody View Post

From a legal standpoint, I will definitely agree with you. JVC is at little legal risk. They have, however, not met the consumer expectations with regard to the implementation of the CMS. This is a PR problem, not a legal one. That is why I am disappointed in the lack of a JVC response on this forum. I do think they are working on new firmware as has been suggested by others in this thread and in the firmware thread. We do not, however, have any idea as to whether the hardware will allow what would be considered by most here to be a CMS fix. If the hardware does not allow it, the firmware "fix" may be quite limited in scope and disappointing. As I have said before, I would be most happy to hear directly from JVC that the initial release was done to allow the projector to get in our hands at a timeframe before the CMS was ready. I would be ecstatic to know that the hardware will allow for a complete fix. I do not want to buy a Radiance XD. I remain pessimistic without direct information from JVC. The lack of direct response is an indicator of problems (of course, I could be wrong - they might just have poor communication skills).

JVC doesn't have poor communication skills when it comes to large glossy ads in magazines!

Mike
post #1659 of 1782
Quote:
Originally Posted by stereomandan View Post

I think he is referring to the fact that you can't do a custom gamma in THX mode. Gamma is low.

If you couldn't do the service mode fix for grayscale in THX mode, it would be a shame. The calibration results for THX mode that others have posted look great, after the grayscale tweak, with one exception, the gamma.

Dan: I think that it is useful to recall that Jason reported very early that no two RS20s he had looked at measured the same.

The unit Gregg worked on had a THX gamma that was a little too low (2.1), but the unit Kris Deering worked on was fine (2.22).

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showp...9&postcount=16

The unit I worked on had a THX gamma that was also fine (2.3).

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showp...&postcount=935

In any case, I was responing to the poster's comment regarding "RGB tracking with a small dE amount." RGB tracking and dE can only refer to grayscale tracking. Gamma has no dE as dE is a measurment of color error only.
post #1660 of 1782
"the contrast ratio between 80%stim and 20%stim, with 2.2 having around 20:1 for that range and 2.5 having around 30:1 for that range."

Wow, I never realized such a small part

Converting to dB, a CR of 10k:1 is 40 dB, and with 2.5 gamma the difference between 20 and 80 is ~15 dB.

That means 25 of the 40 dB are below 20 and above 80.

Wait a sec - I read it as 20 - 80 IRE; is that what you meant?

If not, what IRE are 20% and 80% stim?
post #1661 of 1782
Quote:
Originally Posted by noah katz View Post

Wait a sec - I read it as 20 - 80 IRE; is that what you meant?

Yes, if 0 IRE is used for black and not 7.5 IRE.

As far as that confusion, I haven't personally found any shorthand way to do this that is totally obvious. I tend to use %stim (as in %stimulation) since I think that should make it clear that it is the input level, but I know some don't like that. I think "video level" is still a little ambiguous because I don't think it is obvious that it is before gamma is applied in the display, but maybe that is just me. And IRE has the problem that it is really voltage and there is the issue of starting at 0 IRE or 7.5 IRE.

--Darin
post #1662 of 1782
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gregg Loewen View Post

ledahu,

I think we are going to have to agree to disagree.
many PJs and other displays have controls that do work as we would expect them to.

The measured gamma on the RS20 in THX mode is just fine. Not one of you would be able to watch a moving image and discern a 2.1 vs 2.2 vs 2.3 gamma.

Gregg, it would be really useful if you stopped patronising participants in this discussion.
You've been asked a direct question by Darin (post 1653) and chose not to reply. I also note that you did not provide any gamma specific information in your last installation report.
If you (or your customers) can't see the difference between 2.1 and 2.3 gamma, then please don't assume it's the same for others.
THX may be acceptable to some when a specific PJ is installed, by luck, in a room which is right for it. As Tom reminded us, the PJs measure differently, probably due to unit to unit variation. If mine was giving 2.2 or 2.3, and the same dE Tom or yourself measure after color temp adjustment, I may not have the same problem with THX (although it would still be slighly undersaturated, even with color=+5).
The only thing I can see is the difference - in my bat cave - between tweaked THX and a custom preset with a gamma of 2.3 (measuring 2.2). Gamut color is less accurate, but greyscale is more accurate and the picture has much more dimensionality, and is therefore better.
You remind me of this classic French stand up comedy number where a poor guy (Fernand Reynaud) was sold an ill fitting suit by his taylor (one sleeve was clearly cut too short). The taylor, not wanting to redo the suit, was trying to convince him that it was fine. Look, if you wear it like this (completely bend), it doesn't show! He was even trying to teach his buyer how to walk so that the suit would look fine despite its obvious flaw...
I haven't bought a Porsche to be told "if you drive it at 60mph on the motorway, it works fine". I bought it because I expected to be able to drive it at 120 Mph on a circuit I specially designed for it.
You're telling me it's fine and I shouldn't complain. But I know that if it's fixed, it can do much better than that.
Now I'm waiting to see if JVC can/will fix it (the CMS, not my Porsche).
I had initially chosen to (pre)buy a 350, and my dealer - who is great by the way and is doing everyhting he can to help - convinced me to upgrade to the 750 by saying I would be able - with the CMS - to get the colors exactly the way I wanted (which, in my books, doesn't mean an undersaturated gamut with approximate greyscale and too low gamma).
In my buying decision, I was getting a better PJ than a 350 and an integrated VP. THX (with the limitation of the "one size fits all" approach by nature) has always been a "backup" in my head, possibly a starting point, but definitely not what I should settle for, or I would have bought a 350. I then completely redecorated my screening room (now a complete bat cave) to make the most of the upgrade. And I ended up with the PJ we know (a great PJ, with an accurate but flat and dull THX compared to custom presets, and a broken CMS).
So I was sold a Porsche, not a Ford Mondeo, and I will, like Highlander, ask JVC for a refund, an exchange or some compensation if it's not fixed, as the PJ is not fit for purpose at present because of its flawed CMS.
However, like Highlander, I am still hopeful that the firmware will be available soon. I have no idea what it will fix though, and I don't have any expectations in this regard. For example I don't know if it's going to offer a more flexible THX-like preset (with greyscale, gamma and sharpness control, like cinema1) or a better CMS.
I'll decide with my dealer what to do when we know what the firmware upgrade offers (or not), but in the meantime please stop telling us that there is no problem and that we should just sit down and be quiet.
I am sure it is a blow for custom installers to have so many potential customers sitting on the fence waiting to see whether the CMS is fixed or not, but if it isn't, everyone knows that the 350 and a radiance may be a more sensible option for many if not most. This is what TomH (in post 937) and CraigR (in his review of the rs20/radiance combo) for example said they would do if they had to chose between a 350 and a 750 in its present state. As far as I'm concerned, there is no way I am buying a radiance as I have already paid for some of its functionality (but didn't get it).
Many competent reviewers/installers with knowledge AND integrity have chosen NOT to discuss the subject in public - although they do in private, and can clearly see the problem you pretend doesn't exist - despite the pressure to publish a review/give an opinion. They don't want to hurt the sales even more, which is understandable as very few of them are fully independant as they are also resellers, but they are not ready either to compromise their reputation and credibility by saying all is fine because THX offers the best picture for everyone and the difference in price between the 350 and the 750 is fully justified whatever your environment and expectations.
In the meantime, lost or delayed sales are the best motivation for JVC to fix what should/could be the star PJ of custom installs, but isn't - yet - for a very good reason.
post #1663 of 1782
I have added links to KrisD, TomH and GreggL reports about THX to the "tweaked THX" section in the mini-recap linked in post 1. Sorry about the delay/omission (especially re Tom's), it wasn't intentional. Thanks to Frank456 for reminding us that Tom's post was one of the most useful in the thread. Please let me know if there are any other blatant omissions in the mini-recap (I've also found one of Googer's great posts about gamma tweaking, which I'm adding as well). I'm trying to keep it as objective as possible, but I may occasionally need some help.
post #1664 of 1782
I like many others were watching the RS1/2 threads and held off on purchases with the promise of the RS20 and fixing some of the problems of the RS1/2.

I am an intelligent but relatively video naive consumer (working on learning more...)
I think that reflects more of the AVS population than the installers/dealers.

The RS20 is a good projector and everyone hopes the FW upgrade will fix the CMS. If it does, no problems.
I think based on those more knowledgable then myself that an adequate CMS fix is unlikely.


Some comments/questions:

1. Did JVC ever promise a CMS and what type of CMS?
Any specific references or links?
This may get into a legal vs. customer supportive fix.
Or did the CMS function get explored and hyped by the forum community beyond anything that JVC promised?

2. If the CMS can't be adequately fixed, what are the recourses?
Even if not legally imperative, it will hurt JVC's reputation and sales to not help their consumers. Despite positive reviews that gloss over the CMS issue, this will come up with current consumers doing research and with future JVC products.

If the recourse (for the consumer) is an external VP, then that gets into a different price range of projectors for JVC to be competing with.

3. One possibility is an external video processor (VP) credit
I realize that would solve having an RS20 internal fix and wouldn't cover the entire cost of a new VP, but it would be a step in the right direction.
Some customers may not be interested and think the current RS20 is "good enough", but I think the way it is being advertised and the pricepoint attracts "high value" customers.


Like Manni01 I am considering a Lumagen Radiance, but hadn't budgetted for it given the promise of an adequate projector CMS.

Again, I hope the beta fixes everything, but I believe this isn't something that we should say is "good enough".

I appreciate everyone's input on this thread and the other RS20 threads.

Thanks.

Mike
post #1665 of 1782
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike_WI View Post

I like many others were watching the RS1/2 threads and held off on purchases with the promise of the RS20 and fixing some of the problems of the RS1/2.

I am an intelligent but relatively video naive consumer (working on learning more...)
I think that reflects more of the AVS population than the installers/dealers.

The RS20 is a good projector and everyone hopes the FW upgrade will fix the CMS. If it does, no problems.
I think based on those more knowledgable then myself that an adequate CMS fix is unlikely.


Some comments/questions:

1. Did JVC ever promise a CMS and what type of CMS?
Any specific references or links?
This may get into a legal vs. customer supportive fix.
Or did the CMS function get explored and hyped by the forum community beyond anything that JVC promised?

2. If the CMS can't be adequately fixed, what are the recourses?
Even if not legally imperative, it will hurt JVC's reputation and sales to not help their consumers. Despite positive reviews that gloss over the CMS issue, this will come up with current consumers doing research and with future JVC products.

If the recourse (for the consumer) is an external VP, then that gets into a different price range of projectors for JVC to be competing with.

3. One possibility is an external video processor (VP) credit
I realize that would solve having an RS20 internal fix and wouldn't cover the entire cost of a new VP, but it would be a step in the right direction.
Some customers may not be interested and think the current RS20 is "good enough", but I think the way it is being advertised and the pricepoint attracts "high value" customers.


Like Manni01 I am considering a Lumagen Radiance, but hadn't budgetted for it given the promise of an adequate projector CMS.

Again, I hope the beta fixes everything, but I believe this isn't something that we should say is "good enough".

I appreciate everyone's input on this thread and the other RS20 threads.

Thanks.

Mike

I personally am not willing to discuss any of these very valid points further until we know what the firmware upgrade does or does not.
First because I'm not convinced it is productive at this stage (as far as I know JVC has been working on a solution and is about to deliver it).
Second because I'm still hoping it won't be necessary to start this kind of battle...
post #1666 of 1782
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike_WI View Post

Highlander_AVS -

Collectively (in general) our Italian writing and speaking sucks, so no worries on your English.

Mike

Thanks Mike
post #1667 of 1782
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gregg Loewen View Post

Well, I am another that is going to be disagreeing with you. The PJ is what it is.
The examples that you cite are flawed....even the Pioneer Elite plasmas have a very poorly implimented CMS system. Even more so with the Sharp panels.

Maybe Pioneer and Sharp in panels description and specifications didn't describe what their CMS can't do and stated as they can do ....

JVC in the RS20 description and specifications wrote the rules and the aims of the added CMS function and at now it's almost impossible to get what they aimed to ...
post #1668 of 1782
Quote:
Originally Posted by Manni01 View Post

I personally am not willing to discuss any of these very valid points further until we know what the firmware upgrade does or does not.
First because I'm not convinced it is productive at this stage (as far as I know JVC has been working on a solution and is about to deliver it).
Second because I'm still hoping it won't be necessary to start this kind of battle...

Manni01 -

Fair enough.
I value your continued posts and input on the RS20.

I was just externalizing some stuff I was thinking about.
I hope everything works out for everyone with the FW upgrade.
However, I am not sure we (or ?JVC?) even knows the timeline and threshold date for asking what has been accomplished.

Thanks.

Mike
post #1669 of 1782
Quote:
Originally Posted by Manni01 View Post

I personally am not willing to discuss any of these very valid points further until we know what the firmware upgrade does or does not.
First because I'm not convinced it is productive at this stage (as far as I know JVC has been working on a solution and is about to deliver it).
Second because I'm still hoping it won't be necessary to start this kind of battle...

+1

Really hope to avoid any kind of legal battle
post #1670 of 1782
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike_WI View Post

Manni01 -
However, I am not sure we (or ?JVC?) even knows the timeline and threshold date for asking what has been accomplished.

I think 3 months (from the beg of Jan when JVC got the info in the firmware upgrade thread, to the beginning of April) is a fair enough amount of time if the problem is fixable with a new firmware (remember, it's not only the technical work or rewriting the firmware, but also possibly some negociation with THX if they are planning to offer a more flexible, THX-like preset - maybe without the THX brand attached to this specific preset?).
I still believe the firmware upgrade is "imminent", so hopefully it will be made available to the first beta testers by the end of this month, beg of April at the latest.
post #1671 of 1782
Quote:
Originally Posted by Manni01 View Post

I think 3 months (from the beg of Jan when JVC got the info in the firmware upgrade thread, to the beginning of April) is a fair enough amount of time if the problem is fixable with a new firmware (remember, it's not only the technical work or rewriting the firmware, but also possibly some negociation with THX if they are planning to offer a more flexible, THX-like preset - maybe without the THX brand attached to this specific preset?).
I still believe the firmware upgrade is "imminent", so hopefully it will be made available to the first beta testers by the end of this month, beg of April at the latest.

Manni01 -

Thanks for providing a tentative timeline.
Not that JVC will abide by it () but it is likely helpful for us to use.

Mike
post #1672 of 1782
Quote:
Originally Posted by TomHuffman View Post

Dan: I think that it is useful to recall that Jason reported very early that no two RS20s he had looked at measured the same.

The unit Gregg worked on had a THX gamma that was a little too low (2.1), but the unit Kris Deering worked on was fine (2.22).

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showp...9&postcount=16

The unit I worked on had a THX gamma that was also fine (2.3).

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showp...&postcount=935

In any case, I was responing to the poster's comment regarding "RGB tracking with a small dE amount." RGB tracking and dE can only refer to grayscale tracking. Gamma has no dE as dE is a measurment of color error only.

All good points Tom, and yes I did misinterpret you. Sorry about that. I've seen one other RS-20 with a gamma of 2.14 that isn't one you listed, but I am happy to see that there are examples that at least hit 2.22 or above. I'm surprised that gamma would change so much from unit to unit. Seems like there shouldn't be much variation in a preset gamma funtion. Greyscale tracking I can see varying a lot, but gamma surprises me.

Dan
post #1673 of 1782
Quote:


Gregg, it would be really useful if you stopped patronising participants in this discussion.

Hardly the case. sorry you cant engage in a conversation without throwing sticks.
post #1674 of 1782
Gamma of 2.14 vs 2.22 is essentially the same thing. any difference would not be visible when viewing material.
post #1675 of 1782
guys please note...i am not trying to defend the RS-20. That being said....in a reference "man cave" this thing looks stunning in THX mode (with the dynamic range properly set, and the gray scale tweeked).
I too, would love to have more flexibility with the unit when one is using it in less then ideal conditions. In less then ideal conditions, it can still be made to look great.
post #1676 of 1782
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gregg Loewen View Post

Hardly the case. sorry you cant engage in a conversation without throwing sticks.

I can, as long as soneone doesn't throw sticks first
post #1677 of 1782
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gregg Loewen View Post

Gamma of 2.14 vs 2.22 is essentially the same thing. any difference would not be visible when viewing material.

This is not what you said. You said "Not one of you would be able to watch a moving image and discern a 2.1 vs 2.2 vs 2.3 gamma."
post #1678 of 1782
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gregg Loewen View Post

guys please note...i am not trying to defend the RS-20. That being said....in a reference "man cave" this thing looks stunning in THX mode (with the dynamic range properly set, and the gray scale tweeked).
I too, would love to have more flexibility with the unit when one is using it in less then ideal conditions. In less then ideal conditions, it can still be made to look great.

This is where we disagree. In ideal conditions (other batcaves), the PJ doesn't perform as favorably.

I have a batcave, and so does Highlander and many other frustrated RS-20 owners.

Which is why we react when you say "in less than ideal conditions".

It's exactly the opposite! The RS20 would do fine in a white room

The rs-20 is a great PJ, which deserves to be defended. It just has a broken CMS.

Please be open to the fact that all units do not perform the way the one you have installed, even in bat caves, and we'll agree
post #1679 of 1782
Quote:


Not one of you would be able to watch a moving image and discern a 2.1 vs 2.2 vs 2.3 gamma

I stand behind this comment also.
post #1680 of 1782
Quote:


Please be open to the fact that all units do not perform the way the one you have installed, even in bat caves, and we'll agree

I dont believe this is the case...and if it is then something is installed wrong or whatever.
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