or Connect
AVS › AVS Forum › Display Devices › Digital Hi-End Projectors - $3,000+ USD MSRP › Official JVC RS20 / HD750 Calibration and CMS thread
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:

Official JVC RS20 / HD750 Calibration and CMS thread - Page 57

post #1681 of 1782
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gregg Loewen View Post

I stand behind this comment also.

It is your right!
post #1682 of 1782
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gregg Loewen View Post

I dont believe this is the case...and if it is then something is installed wrong or whatever.

Fine, then we'll agree to disagree.
post #1683 of 1782
To lighten the mood, here are some good news from GaryB (JVC UK):
http://www.avforums.com/forums/dlp-l...ml#post9146462
I hope he'll post a similar info in the firmware update thread.
post #1684 of 1782
Quote:
Originally Posted by Manni01 View Post

I hope he'll post a similar info in the firmware update thread.

He already has
post #1685 of 1782
Quote:
Originally Posted by GaryB_UK View Post

He already has

Per this link -- (if known) will the new FW upgrade use a RGB or HLS CMS?

Thanks.

Mike
post #1686 of 1782
Gregg,

Yes, 2.14 display gamma is close to 2.22 no doubt, but at 10% stimulus there is a 20% light output difference. (0.72% versus 0.6%). 2.1 versus 2.22 has a 32% diffrerence at 10% stimulus, and 21% difference at 20% stimulus. The higher output areas of the picture are hardly affected, but the darker areas sure are. This is where you lose that nice contrasty punch. I can say for certainty that I can see the difference between 2.1 and 2.22 because on my projector (non RS20) I can switch between the two very easily, both of which I can calibrate to hit dead on the desired gamma curve.

That's really all I have to say about the gamma issue, since I feel that we're starting to beat a dead horse on this issue. To some, it is a big issue obviously, to others, not so much.

Dan
post #1687 of 1782
Quote:
Originally Posted by stereomandan View Post

Gregg,

Yes, 2.14 display gamma is close to 2.22 no doubt, but at 10% stimulus there is a 20% light output difference. (0.72% versus 0.6%). 2.1 versus 2.22 has a 32% diffrerence at 10% stimulus, and 21% difference at 20% stimulus. The higher output areas of the picture are hardly affected, but the darker areas sure are. This is where you lose that nice contrasty punch. I can say for certainty that I can see the difference between 2.1 and 2.22 because on my projector (non RS20) I can switch between the two very easily, both of which I can calibrate to hit dead on the desired gamma curve.

That's really all I have to say about the gamma issue, since I feel that we're starting to beat a dead horse on this issue. To some, it is a big issue obviously, to others, not so much.

Dan

Thanks Dan, this is exactly what I experience on my RS20 (HD750). It is easy to see it when switching between the normal, 2.3 and 2.4 gamma settings (which measure at 2.1, 2.2 and 2.3 effective) on any preset (custom or not) that allows custom gamma (even without tweaking the curve, just using the JVC default curve for each gamma value). It is far from subtle, and 2.2 (effective) in my environment does offer the contrasty punch you mention. ".1 is flat and 2.3 starts to affect detail in dark scenes (slightly crushed blacks).
post #1688 of 1782
Quote:
Originally Posted by Manni01 View Post

This is where we disagree. In ideal conditions (other batcaves), the PJ doesn't perform as favorably.

I have a batcave, and so does Highlander and many other frustrated RS-20 owners.

Which is why we react when you say "in less than ideal conditions".

It's exactly the opposite! The RS20 would do fine in a white room

The rs-20 is a great PJ, which deserves to be defended. It just has a broken CMS.

Please be open to the fact that all units do not perform the way the one you have installed, even in bat caves, and we'll agree

Look, I understand the desire to have a CMS that does exactly what you want it do. But everybody here loved and raved about the RS2, which had no CMS capabilities at all. But one fair criticism was oversaturated primaries, however this is also advantageous because it allows an external CMS to bring that in, and some people may WANT oversaturated primaries. So JVC worked to add this for the current models, which I think is very laudable effort.

Most displays have no CMS capabilities, and then many/most of the ones that do also have significant problems in their CMS implementation.

Keeping in mind the very reasonable cost and amazing performance of the projector, I think JVC deserves more credit for listening and including a CMS, even if imperfect, in their display. Their continuing response and seeming intent to improve it if possible deserves some applause. Even if they are unable to implement the CMS perfectly in existing units, it does indicate that they may very well work to do it right next time.

And also, if having absolutely perfect gamut is crucial, there are outside processors that will achieve this for you, so it isn't as if JVC is throwing up an insurmountable obstacle to perfect color.

You also have to realize that MOST of the projectors they're selling aren't to people who are even aware that a CMS is there, and wouldn't use it or even have the capability/tools to use it *even if it functioned perfectly.*

So comparing this to a car company selling you a car without wheels is grossly overstating the situation.

Now, if JVC had raised the price 5 thousand dollars or something for the inclusion of a CMS and it didn't work properly, then perhaps these arguments would have more merit. But there are many displays out there that cost SIGNIFICANTLY more than the Rs20, do not perform as well, and do not have a CMS at all. So please be reasonable and have at least SOME semblance of context here. JVC isn't a non-profit volunteer agency here.
post #1689 of 1782
I am sorry.

I had the choice between the 350 and the 750.
I selected the 750 because of the CMS capablities.
JVC made an offer and I accepted to pay the price.
Until the CMS is fixed, something very important to my eyes will be missing.

Any deviation against specifications is a deviation and has nothing to do with the price.
Any product specification has no priorty items (unless specified)

Not only the current CMS does not manage the colors as expected, but it seriously degrades the very good basic perfomances of the PJ.
post #1690 of 1782
imho JVC will fix the problem with the release of a new pj. We done been suckered in and bought it. I dont see them doing a free fix although what they packaged us in the rs20 stated it would have a cms that works.
post #1691 of 1782
Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisWiggles View Post

Look, I understand the desire to have a CMS that does exactly what you want it do. But everybody here loved and raved about the RS2, which had no CMS capabilities at all. But one fair criticism was oversaturated primaries, however this is also advantageous because it allows an external CMS to bring that in, and some people may WANT oversaturated primaries. So JVC worked to add this for the current models, which I think is very laudable effort.

Most displays have no CMS capabilities, and then many/most of the ones that do also have significant problems in their CMS implementation.

Keeping in mind the very reasonable cost and amazing performance of the projector, I think JVC deserves more credit for listening and including a CMS, even if imperfect, in their display. Their continuing response and seeming intent to improve it if possible deserves some applause. Even if they are unable to implement the CMS perfectly in existing units, it does indicate that they may very well work to do it right next time.

And also, if having absolutely perfect gamut is crucial, there are outside processors that will achieve this for you, so it isn't as if JVC is throwing up an insurmountable obstacle to perfect color.

You also have to realize that MOST of the projectors they're selling aren't to people who are even aware that a CMS is there, and wouldn't use it or even have the capability/tools to use it *even if it functioned perfectly.*

So comparing this to a car company selling you a car without wheels is grossly overstating the situation.

Now, if JVC had raised the price 5 thousand dollars or something for the inclusion of a CMS and it didn't work properly, then perhaps these arguments would have more merit. But there are many displays out there that cost SIGNIFICANTLY more than the Rs20, do not perform as well, and do not have a CMS at all. So please be reasonable and have at least SOME semblance of context here. JVC isn't a non-profit volunteer agency here.

Thanks for another layer of patronising.

Your comparison with the RS2 doesn't make any sense, as that model has never been sold or advertised as including an internal CMS to rectify the wide color gamut, so I don't see how anyone could complain about this. And suggesting that we should be happy to have bought the RS20 because it will allow RS30 owners to have a better CMS is simply ludicrous.

There may be other more expensive projectors which are less performant, but there is also a less expensive projector which is almost as good (if the CMS isn't working), and it's the RS10 which I almost bought. And I do know about external VPs, thank you very much, as I think most pre-buyers of the RS20 do. Yes, most people don't know what a CMS is, but most people ready to put the price of the RS20 in a PJ do, or they would buy a Sony HW10 or even an RS10. Like Le Dahu, I paid for the CMS when I chose the 750 (rs20) and not the 350 (rs10).

You are completely misreading my post and are taking it out of its wider context. I personally have nothing but praise at this stage for JVC and my dealer, who are working hard to solve the problem and have never pretended it didn't exist, even if they didn't aknowledge it publicly (or even privately). The only critic one may make is indeed how they handled communication around the problem, but it's not difficult to understand why they did it that way.

In another thread, I reacted strongly when someone questionned the competence (and the ability to deliver a fix) of the design team of this PJ, which is, again, a great PJ. If it had not been sold as integrating a fully working CMS, I don't think anyone would ever have complained about it (but then less people would have bought it, as many would have chosen the rs10, whether they were looking at accurate colors through an external VP or didn't care about the wide gamut!). I also applaud the fact that JVC is working at solving the problem, and I have always been on the side of those trying to encourage others to be patient and allow enough time to get a proper fix, and be positive about it.

But I will react equally strongly when some are suggesting we should contend ourselves with the THX preset, and that there is no problem. I have been sold a PJ with an integrated CMS to finetune this PJ exactly as I want to (with a slight oversaturation in my case, which is also why I'm not happy with the undersaturated THX), and as Le Dahu says, this is what we can rightfully expect. Not absolute precision (10 dE or less for each gamut target is fine by me, and 3dE or less for greyscale steps), but access to custom gamma, 11 step greyscale and reasonable color accuracy (to Rec709 or any custom gamut we favor) AT THE SAME TIME.

In any case, hopefully this will be a moot point within the next few days, thanks to the new firmware, so I don't see much point in discussing this further until we can see what the firmware upgrade brings to the table.
post #1692 of 1782
Quote:
Originally Posted by stereomandan View Post

Gregg,

Yes, 2.14 display gamma is close to 2.22 no doubt, but at 10% stimulus there is a 20% light output difference. (0.72% versus 0.6%). 2.1 versus 2.22 has a 32% diffrerence at 10% stimulus, and 21% difference at 20% stimulus. The higher output areas of the picture are hardly affected, but the darker areas sure are. This is where you lose that nice contrasty punch. .......

+1
Same in my experiences
post #1693 of 1782
Hello

Just got my new RS 20 and initial impressions are excellent echoing many of the comments already posted in this forum. This is definitely a huge step up from my 5 yr old NEC HT110 (XGA resolution, 1024 X 768) which has given me years of trouble free service.

To be honest, when I first played my first Blu Ray on the NEC from my Panasonic BD-55, the jump in quality from DVD was not as dramatic as I had hoped. With the RS 20 now in the house, the circle is complete, huuuuge difference as anticipated!!....the Fifth Element never looked so good.

Now, I went straight to the THX mode for viewing last night and it is very good compared to the other presets as noted. I will calibrate after about 100 hrs but here is my question:

Regarding the Panasonic BD-55 (or any other BD player), what is the rule of thumb for calibrating at source? Shouldn't a guy tweak here first (and how?) before messing around calibrating the RS 20? Or just leave everything at default in the BD-55 and proceed with my calibration with the RS 20?

Thanks in advance
post #1694 of 1782
Quote:
Originally Posted by dannic View Post

Regarding the Panasonic BD-55 (or any other BD player), what is the rule of thumb for calibrating at source? Shouldn't a guy tweak here first (and how?) before messing around calibrating the RS 20? Or just leave everything at default in the BD-55 and proceed with my calibration with the RS 20?

Thanks in advance

If it's the same as the BD-50 and if you want to stay in HDMI standard (not enhanced), you can leave brightness and contrast on the PJ at 0, but you will have to select the user settings in the display menu on the BD player, and adjust contrast and brightness there to make sure you do get BTB and WTW signals. This is what I chose to do. Otherwise you will have to chose HDMI enhanced on both PJ and BD player, and will have to set brightness on the PJ around -5 to -6. In any case you'll need a BD with pluge pattterns, like DVE basic or AVS HD 709 V1.2. Good luck!
post #1695 of 1782
I was frustrated with my D2, so I bought an i1Pro.
I posted a mini-review and comparison here http://www.avforums.com/forums/dlp-l...ml#post9224020 for those who may be interested.
post #1696 of 1782
I think that Manni has just sold a bunch of i1Pros for X-rite. Where do they send the commission check?
post #1697 of 1782
Come on ...
I never read the text from Manny link, but I know that everyone could read the difference in probes features in the useful Curt Palm FAQ
http://www.curtpalme.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=11436

One could choose the one that better fits his needs
post #1698 of 1782
I cant believe it but I only have 100 hours on my bulb. I know it is sad but I been unable to climb steps after back surgery. I just got my Netflix SETUP AND NOW IT IS CATCH UP TIME. Oh and I already have a replacement bulb on site. lol.
post #1699 of 1782
Quote:
Originally Posted by kutlow View Post

I cant believe it but I only have 100 hours on my bulb. I know it is sad but I been unable to climb steps after back surgery. I just got my Netflix SETUP AND NOW IT IS CATCH UP TIME. Oh and I already have a replacement bulb on site. lol.

kutlow -

Hunker down and enjoy.


Mike
post #1700 of 1782
Quote:
Originally Posted by kutlow View Post

I cant believe it but I only have 100 hours on my bulb. I know it is sad but I been unable to climb steps after back surgery. I just got my Netflix SETUP AND NOW IT IS CATCH UP TIME. Oh and I already have a replacement bulb on site. lol.

Well, you surely have company. I just passed 100 hours last week. Alas, w-o-r-k keeps me too busy in winter and spring. Perhaps with the start of baseball season my use will increase. Then again, hmm, the Mariners.....maybe not .

Enjoy Netflix. I joined a couple of months ago and have been really impressed with how quickly the flicks arrive and, with only a couple of exceptions, the pristine quality of their blu-ray discs.
post #1701 of 1782
I've had my RS20 for about ten days now and have a question. I set the Brightness at -7, Contrast at 13 and Lens Aperture at -12. For whatever reason, some images with these settings lack adequate shadow detail. Others are fine. If I increase the brightness I lose the deep blacks.

I used the Digital Video Essentials HD Basics disc to see what it might do. The brightness settings I got from that were way over the top, destroying the black level. This disc worked pretty well on my old DLP RPTV. Is there something about FP that renders a disc like this less effective? My room is very dark and fully light controlled, so I'm stumped.
post #1702 of 1782
Quote:
Originally Posted by egrady View Post

I've had my RS20 for about ten days now and have a question. I set the Brightness at -7, Contrast at 13 and Lens Aperture at -12. For whatever reason, some images with these settings lack adequate shadow detail. Others are fine. If I increase the brightness I lose the deep blacks.

I used the Digital Video Essentials HD Basics disc to see what it might do. The brightness settings I got from that were way over the top, destroying the black level. This disc worked pretty well on my old DLP RPTV. Is there something about FP that renders a disc like this less effective? My room is very dark and fully light controlled, so I'm stumped.

Those brightness and contrast levels are probably off. They should be close to 0.

I would manually sey you HDMI level to either Enhanced or to Standard based on the source settings and then recalibrate.
post #1703 of 1782
Quote:
Originally Posted by egrady View Post

I've had my RS20 for about ten days now and have a question. I set the Brightness at -7, Contrast at 13 and Lens Aperture at -12. For whatever reason, some images with these settings lack adequate shadow detail. Others are fine. If I increase the brightness I lose the deep blacks.

I used the Digital Video Essentials HD Basics disc to see what it might do. The brightness settings I got from that were way over the top, destroying the black level. This disc worked pretty well on my old DLP RPTV. Is there something about FP that renders a disc like this less effective? My room is very dark and fully light controlled, so I'm stumped.

As LG said, also make sure that you set up all your sources on the same HDMI option (standard or enhanced) otherwise the -7 will be fine for some sources (enhanced) and too dark for some others (standard).

If you can set all your sources to standard, it is preferable, otherwise you'll need a different setting for each source type (standard / enhanced).

For example, if my BD-50 is set to HDMI enhanced, -6 is right for brightness. If set to HDMI standard, 0 is right. The rs-20 usually picks up the right mode, but you may have to set it manually as LG said.

As I find annoying to have different settings per type, I set all my sources to standard and I'm fine with a brightness=0.

Re contrast, it doesn't make much sense to push it as high at you do, 1) because the settings stops to make a difference above 5 or 6 in my experience, and 2 because you're probably clipping whites.
post #1704 of 1782
Quote:


HLS should not be used to adjust the color gamut if you expect to get reliably accurate linearity on the gamut. If one attempts to correct the gamut with HLS, you are going to be able to nail the gamut at a point, but not across a stimulus range.

An HSL-based CMS can produce excellent results when properly implemented. One has to look no further than the Sharp XV-Z projectors to find an excellent HSL-based CMS implementation. Any 6-axis CMS is overkill for this application (unnecessarily burdensome to adjust) but that is unfortunately marketing driven. The Yamaha DPX projectors had the best (and most software intensive) CMS implementation I've seen (providing both 3-axis and optional 6-axis x,y,Y adjustments in a graphical user interface, with manual or automatic Y adjustment). I'm surprised someone hasn't licensed their technology, but the additional user interface overhead may be a deterrent.
post #1705 of 1782
Greg,
Are you going to review the RS20 anytime soon?
post #1706 of 1782
Quote:
Originally Posted by John Ballentine View Post

Greg,
Are you going to review the RS20 anytime soon?

Yes, but like a fine wine, it can't be served before its time!
post #1707 of 1782
Quote:
Originally Posted by gregr View Post

Yes, but like a fine wine, it can't be served before its time!

You tease. Look forward to the review.

Dan
post #1708 of 1782
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lawguy View Post

Those brightness and contrast levels are probably off. They should be close to 0.

I would manually sey you HDMI level to either Enhanced or to Standard based on the source settings and then recalibrate.

That's an interesting comment re: the contrast setting. I had Jason do the basic calibration on my unit prior to shipping. He set the contrast at +16 and brightness at -6. For most flicks I've been setting the contrast around 0 to +6 and brightness between 0 and +3 (that's with Normal lamp and iris at around -6, at 100 hours) but I must say that there have been a few flicks and some TV content that to my eye have benefitted from going back up to +15ish in contrast.
post #1709 of 1782
Sorry to butt into a HD750 thread (I'm a lowly HD350 owner myself ), but I've been adjusting the contrast setting on my PJ. I used the AVS709 disc as well as DVE HD basics and found that while I could push the contrast up over +10, the flashing 'white' colour bars on AVS709 did start to change colour above 235. As 235 is 100 IRE I wonder how important this colour change is on WTW content?

However, on measuring the greyscale I found that the delta at 100 IRE would be further out if I turned up the contrast much above 0, so it seems that the contrast setting (at least on my unit) shouldn't be turned much above 0 to keep the greyscale correct. YMMV of course and in truth I can't say that I can really see any problem with whites if I do bump the contrast up a bit. FWIW I found that I can't go any lower than -1 on the brightness (extended HDMI mode) as it started to crush the blacks and I couldn't see the 1/2/3 IRE bars produced by my Lumagen's internal patterns (note that the Lumagen is set to default contrast level).
post #1710 of 1782
Hi Folks

I have had my RS 20 for a couple of weeks now with about 50 hours on the bulb. So far so good but of course I'm looking to calibrate it once I decide whether I'm going with the HP or matte white screen for my setup up.

Since I am a rookie at this, can anyone point me in the right direction in regards to a good resource that I can use to educate myself on calibration techincal lingo and theory. I have read this thread but to be honest I am getting lost since I do not understand a lot of the "techno speak".

I just purchased the DVE Basics but have not explored it yet, perhaps there are tutorials on there as well.

Thanks in advance
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:
  Return Home
AVS › AVS Forum › Display Devices › Digital Hi-End Projectors - $3,000+ USD MSRP › Official JVC RS20 / HD750 Calibration and CMS thread