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Official JVC RS20 / HD750 Calibration and CMS thread - Page 58

post #1711 of 1782
Quote:
Originally Posted by dannic View Post

Hi Folks

I have had my RS 20 for a couple of weeks now with about 50 hours on the bulb. So far so good but of course I'm looking to calibrate it once I decide whether I'm going with the HP or matte white screen for my setup up.

Since I am a rookie at this, can anyone point me in the right direction in regards to a good resource that I can use to educate myself on calibration techincal lingo and theory. I have read this thread but to be honest I am getting lost since I do not understand a lot of the "techno speak".

I just purchased the DVE Basics but have not explored it yet, perhaps there are tutorials on there as well.

Thanks in advance

Yes, the DVE disk (and also AVIA) is a good place to start. Setting Brightness and Contrast correctly are the two most imp things to get right, and they describe how to do this quite well. Then you can go from there.
post #1712 of 1782
Quote:
Originally Posted by dannic View Post

Hi Folks

I have had my RS 20 for a couple of weeks now with about 50 hours on the bulb. So far so good but of course I'm looking to calibrate it once I decide whether I'm going with the HP or matte white screen for my setup up.

Since I am a rookie at this, can anyone point me in the right direction in regards to a good resource that I can use to educate myself on calibration techincal lingo and theory. I have read this thread but to be honest I am getting lost since I do not understand a lot of the "techno speak".

I just purchased the DVE Basics but have not explored it yet, perhaps there are tutorials on there as well.

Thanks in advance

Maybe a step or two above the DVE Basics, but I found these very helpful:

http://www.curtpalme.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=10457

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=852536
____
Axel
post #1713 of 1782
Quote:
Originally Posted by Axel View Post

Maybe a step or two above the DVE Basics, but I found these very helpful:

http://www.curtpalme.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=10457

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=852536
____
Axel

Agree--this is the next step after getting comfortable with DVE/AVIA.
post #1714 of 1782
Quote:
Originally Posted by axel View Post

maybe a step or two above the dve basics, but i found these very helpful:

http://www.curtpalme.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=10457

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=852536
____
axel

+1

I would also suggest you practice working on the greyscale with the present firmware, but wait for the new firmware (which should be with us towards the end of this month) to do any serious work on the gamut using the CMS. Have fun!
post #1715 of 1782
I am only using the 2 HDMI inputs. Is there any way to turn off the other inputs or bypass them when I am switching sources. It's annoying to have to go through them when I am trying to get back to HDMI 1.
post #1716 of 1782
AFAIK the discrete codes are as follows:

If you use serial comms:

HDMI1: 21 89 01 49 50 36 0A
HDMI2: 21 89 01 49 50 37 0A

For IR comms (pronto format)

HDMI1:

0000 006C 0023 0000 0143 00A2 0014 003D 0014 003D 0014 0014 0014 0014 0014 003D 0014 003D 0014 003D 0014 0014 0014 0014 0014 0014 0014 0014 0014 0014 0014 003D 0014 003D 0014 003D 0014 0014 0014 031E 0014 003D 0014 003D 0014 0014 0014 0014 0014 003D 0014 003D 0014 003D 0014 0014 0014 0014 0014 0014 0014 0014 0014 0014 0014 003D 0014 003D 0014 003D 0014 0014 0014 00A2

HDMI2:

0000 006C 0023 0000 0143 00A2 0014 003D 0014 003D 0014 0014 0014 0014 0014 003D 0014 003D 0014 003D 0014 0014 0014 003D 0014 0014 0014 0014 0014 0014 0014 003D 0014 003D 0014 003D 0014 0014 0014 02F3 0014 003D 0014 003D 0014 0014 0014 0014 0014 003D 0014 003D 0014 003D 0014 0014 0014 003D 0014 0014 0014 0014 0014 0014 0014 003D 0014 003D 0014 003D 0014 0014 0014 00A2


I don't think you can disable the other inputs as such, but stand to be corrected.

Mark
post #1717 of 1782
Quote:
Originally Posted by BIG n View Post

I am only using the 2 HDMI inputs. Is there any way to turn off the other inputs or bypass them when I am switching sources. It's annoying to have to go through them when I am trying to get back to HDMI 1.

I use RS232 control with a Pronto PRO TSU9400 and RFX9600 extender. I have a one button operation for the service menu, and direct access to all of the inputs in my file. http://www.remotecentral.com/cgi-bin...-magee_xcf.zip
post #1718 of 1782
Thanks guys, but that doesn't help since I don't use any type of universal remote. Maybe that's an excuse to finally get one.
post #1719 of 1782
Quote:
Originally Posted by BIG n View Post

...Maybe that's an excuse to finally get one.

Definately
post #1720 of 1782
Quote:
Originally Posted by BIG n View Post

Thanks guys, but that doesn't help since I don't use any type of universal remote. Maybe that's an excuse to finally get one.

The only other way would be to buy a remote for the RS1. It would allow you to directly access the two HDMI inputs on your RS20.
post #1721 of 1782
I have an RS20 with 80 hours on it. I am brand new to calibration with a CMS. I have read for many hours in this thread over the last couple weeks to get knowledge on how to do this.

Thank you to all of you who have provided such great information for a newbie to calibration like me. A special thank you to Manni for the great recap on all the different methods used on the RS20.

I just purchased an Eye1 display 2 meter and am using it with Colorfacts.

I have literally put over 40 hours on the projector this week trying to learn calibration and the colorfacts software. It really is amazing how it all works and has helped me to understand most of all I have been reading about for so long as far as calibration goes. I know I still have a lot to learn though.

I just had kneee surgery last Friday, so I have spent all week laid up and trying to get this projector dialed in since I can't do much walking right now.

Anyway, I have learned so much this week by actually putting all the knowledge in this thread to work. I believe I am on the right path and think I have figured out how all the settings interact with each other, however I am definately missing something in the chain of calibration.

Grayscale is no problem for me, but setting the color in the CMS is driving me nuts ! I have tried so many options and there is something big I am missing.

I hope someone can spot it and help me out.

I realize there is a firmware update coming out hopefully next week to fix the CMS , but I wanted to practice and learn how to calibrate while I have the time right now.

It seems I can get my x and y values real close and my DE's down to around 8 or lower ( I realize I need to get them all below 4 ), but my problems are with my Y luminence values. I have tried for so many hours to juggle the settings, but it is not working out for me.

Here are my CMS settings :

Master color is set to -12

Hue Sat. Brightness
Red -15 30 -13
Yellow 2 -15 19
Green -4 -3 26
Cyan -2 -13 28
Blue 3 -21 13
Magenta -2 -2 21

Here is the colorfacts measured data for the primaries:

Red Green Blue
x .644 .297 .147
y .323 .615 .056
Y 8.087 27.044 2.359
De 4.2 3.0 10.5

Any help is greatly appreciated.
post #1722 of 1782
Quote:
Originally Posted by nelson4u View Post

I realize there is a firmware update coming out hopefully next week to fix the CMS , but I wanted to practice and learn how to calibrate while I have the time right now. ...

I have tried for so many hours to juggle the settings, but it is not working out for me. ...

Master color is set to -12

You really shouldn't waste your time (other than to become familiar with your new cal equipment) trying to calibrate the CMS as it is now. It is just going to confuse you. For instance, you should leave the Color control at the default zero (0) setting.
post #1723 of 1782
As the new firmware is available, I followed Lawguy's suggestion and opened a new calibration thread to discuss calibration with the new firmware here http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...6#post16356576.
post #1724 of 1782
I was called in to look at a 750 earlier today. Unfortunately it seemed to have 2" or so purplish vertical bar on the left side of the image.The bulb has about 600 hours on it. I suspect some bulb related issue. The bar was not visible when first installed. Anyone with any insight?
Thanks
post #1725 of 1782
Quote:
Originally Posted by ddingle View Post

I was called in to look at a 750 earlier today. Unfortunately it seemed to have 2" or so purplish vertical bar on the left side of the image.The bulb has about 600 hours on it. I suspect some bulb related issue. The bar was not visible when first installed. Anyone with any insight?
Thanks

Search in the owner's thread for the last few posts by me. I had the same problem (right side of the screen). 1.5" pink fading to purple band. Fixed under warranty, with no real indication of what was wrong, just a note about replacing some bracket.

I suspect that some internal piece shifted out of place and was blocking just a bit of the green light path. All they had to do was replace that piece.
post #1726 of 1782
Late to the party here ... I hope there are still subscribers to this thread.

Last night a friend tried to calibrate my HD750 and found that nearly any attempt to change the contrast to achieve the correct gamma curve resulted in the measurement diving off a cliff at 20 IRE. He measured the THX preset and it too dove off at 20 IRE. He said that he has now done some research and found ways to work around that, but I thought I'd ask here anyway. Is this a known problem of do I have a problem with my HD750?

I know diddly about calibration or terminology, so pardon me if I have not asked the question correctly. I do know that after five hours or so, we bagged the session without my projector being calibrated.

I'll go back now and wade through this thread, though I'm not sure that I'd know the answer if I read it.

Jeff
post #1727 of 1782
Quote:
Originally Posted by pepar View Post

Late to the party here ... I hope there are still subscribers to this thread.

Last night a friend tried to calibrate my HD750 and found that nearly any attempt to change the contrast to achieve the correct gamma curve resulted in the measurement diving off a cliff at 20 IRE. He measured the THX preset and it too dove off at 20 IRE. He said that he has now done some research and found ways to work around that, but I thought I'd ask here anyway. Is this a known problem of do I have a problem with my HD750?

I know diddly about calibration or terminology, so pardon me if I have not asked the question correctly. I do know that after five hours or so, we bagged the session without my projector being calibrated.

I'll go back now and wade through this thread, though I'm not sure that I'd know the answer if I read it.

Jeff

Is it the projector or the calibration equipment?
I'm no expert either, but you might post what equipment/software you were using and do an AVS search for any 20 IRE issues with that gear.

Mike
post #1728 of 1782
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike_WI View Post

Is it the projector or the calibration equipment?
I'm no expert either, but you might post what equipment/software you were using and do an AVS search for any 20 IRE issues with that gear.

Mike

He is using the Sencore OTC1000 that had just been calibrated itself. I'm working my way through this thread and one on AV Forum, but again I'm not so sure I'd know the issue even if I read something about it.

Jeff
post #1729 of 1782
Yes I too was wondering when reading that if it was the meter.

When you say "off a cliff" what values exactly are you reading at 5%, 10%, 15%, and 20%. Post the full curve if you can of your results so far.
post #1730 of 1782
Quote:
Originally Posted by lovingdvd View Post

Yes I too was wondering when reading that if it was the meter.

When you say "off a cliff" what values exactly are you reading at 5%, 10%, 15%, and 20%. Post the full curve if you can of your results so far.

In User1 with "reset" (zeroed) setting, the IRE vs. gamma curve was relatively level, but dancing around, IIRC, 1.6-ish. Minusing contrast to -10 caused the line to raise a bit, but also introduced the cliff at 20 IRE. Interestingly, the THX preset had the same artifact. When I say it fell off a cliff, I mean that at 20 IRE the line plunged to the bottom of the graph. Twenty and up looked like it could have been tweaked. Below, fuggediboutit.

I do not have a capture of the graph, but my calibrator has since reported that "After doing some research I quickly found that gamma tracking is a known issue with this projector. With that I also found some useful techniques we can deploy to obtain a fairly flat gamma response." I replied that that the RS20 was lame if that was normal and he replied "I would say its operating as designed and I share the same sentiment as you."

So at this point I trust that he knows what he's doing and how to calibrate the darn thing. We are on for next Saturday.

Thanks for replying.

Jeff
post #1731 of 1782
Quote:
Originally Posted by pepar View Post

In User1 with "reset" (zeroed) setting, the IRE vs. gamma curve was relatively level, but dancing around, IIRC, 1.6-ish. Minusing contrast to -10 caused the line to raise a bit, but also introduced the cliff at 20 IRE. Interestingly, the THX preset had the same artifact. When I say it fell off a cliff, I mean that at 20 IRE the line plunged to the bottom of the graph. Twenty and up looked like it could have been tweaked. Below, fuggediboutit.

I do not have a capture of the graph, but my calibrator has since reported that "After doing some research I quickly found that gamma tracking is a known issue with this projector. With that I also found some useful techniques we can deploy to obtain a fairly flat gamma response." I replied that that the RS20 was lame if that was normal and he replied "I would say its operating as designed and I share the same sentiment as you."

So at this point I trust that he knows what he's doing and how to calibrate the darn thing. We are on for next Saturday.

Thanks for replying.

Jeff

Not sure about what procedure is being followed. Yes several people myself included have seen significant gamma drifting. However this is a the TOP end. Not the low end. And do not fret, with the right equipment and techniques you can get a beautiful gamma curve out of this projector across the ENTIRE range. Anyway from what you describe it sure sounds to me like something is up with the measurement itself.
post #1732 of 1782
Quote:
Originally Posted by lovingdvd View Post

Not sure about what procedure is being followed. Yes several people myself included have seen significant gamma drifting. However this is a the TOP end. Not the low end. And do not fret, with the right equipment and techniques you can get a beautiful gamma curve out of this projector across the ENTIRE range. Anyway from what you describe it sure sounds to me like something is up with the measurement itself.

Guess we'll know more next Sat. My only concern is that there might be something wrong with the projector.

Jeff
post #1733 of 1782
Quote:
Originally Posted by pepar View Post

Guess we'll know more next Sat. My only concern is that there might be something wrong with the projector.

Jeff

IMO it does not sound like anything is wrong with the projector. I assume you have the brightness and contrast set correctly. If your HDMI type is set to Normal and so is your source, then you should have values right at or a notch from 0.

With brightness and contrast set correctly, your picture would looks really bad especially on dark scenes. How does the picture look to you?
post #1734 of 1782
Why is your friend using the contrast control to adjust gamma? The RS20 lets you adjust the luminance at 10 IRE steps so you can get the gamma curve you want. To be honest, using the contrast control to adjust the gamma would make me question your friend's knowledge about this projector. In addition, unless you are measuring at the projector, you probably won't get valid measurements at or under 20 IRE since the light levels off the screen are probably too dim to get any kind of decent measurements. That probe says it is accurate to .01 foot lamberts. Assuming 16ftl and a 30,000:1 contrast ratio, your black level on screen would be .0005ftl so it isn't surprising that you would get bad measurements at low light if measuring off the screen. It could easily be returning .01 ftl for everything under 20 IRE which could be why the gamma measurements are so off.
post #1735 of 1782
Quote:
Originally Posted by pepar View Post

In User1 with "reset" (zeroed) setting, the IRE vs. gamma curve was relatively level, but dancing around, IIRC, 1.6-ish. Minusing contrast to -10 caused the line to raise a bit, but also introduced the cliff at 20 IRE. Interestingly, the THX preset had the same artifact. When I say it fell off a cliff, I mean that at 20 IRE the line plunged to the bottom of the graph. Twenty and up looked like it could have been tweaked. Below, fuggediboutit.

I do not have a capture of the graph, but my calibrator has since reported that "After doing some research I quickly found that gamma tracking is a known issue with this projector. With that I also found some useful techniques we can deploy to obtain a fairly flat gamma response." I replied that that the RS20 was lame if that was normal and he replied "I would say its operating as designed and I share the same sentiment as you."

So at this point I trust that he knows what he's doing and how to calibrate the darn thing. We are on for next Saturday.

Thanks for replying.

Jeff

Here is some info with tables and figures for my calibration showing good curves...

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...1#post16520531

Before Calibration:
(rounded to 1 decimal point)

IRE - dE
10 - 15.8
20 - 15.9
30 - 17.2
40 - 16.0
50 - 16.7
60 - 14.2
70 - 15.2
80 - 12.6
90 - 13.1
100 - 11.5


After Calibration:
IRE - dE
10 - 0.4
20 - 1.1
30 - 1.2
40 - 0.5
50 - 0.2
60 - 0.2
70 - 0.6
80 - 0.1
90 - 0.2
100 - 0.5


Mike
post #1736 of 1782
Quote:
Originally Posted by lovingdvd View Post

IMO it does not sound like anything is wrong with the projector. I assume you have the brightness and contrast set correctly. If your HDMI type is set to Normal and so is your source, then you should have values right at or a notch from 0.

With brightness and contrast set correctly, your picture would looks really bad especially on dark scenes. How does the picture look to you?

Quote:
Originally Posted by mrlittlejeans View Post

Why is your friend using the contrast control to adjust gamma? The RS20 lets you adjust the luminance at 10 IRE steps so you can get the gamma curve you want. To be honest, using the contrast control to adjust the gamma would make me question your friend's knowledge about this projector. In addition, unless you are measuring at the projector, you probably won't get valid measurements at or under 20 IRE since the light levels off the screen are probably too dim to get any kind of decent measurements. That probe says it is accurate to .01 foot lamberts. Assuming 16ftl and a 30,000:1 contrast ratio, your black level on screen would be .0005ftl so it isn't surprising that you would get bad measurements at low light if measuring off the screen. It could easily be returning .01 ftl for everything under 20 IRE which could be why the gamma measurements are so off.

HDMI is set correct on both source and display. Pre/pro is not touching the video signal. I have been using the THX setting. Dark scenes are deep gray flannel, but detail is not present in the darker areas. Last night I switched to Dynamic and blacks improved, but detail in the darker areas is still crushed. I *know* that this projector is capable of blacks that are close to the black felt covering my screen frame while still showing an incredible amount of detail within the darker areas. If for no other reason, I know that because my friend has his RS1 calibrated like that ... and the HD750/RS20 is better in those areas.

I am at my knowledge limits in understanding and describing what was done and why, but it is my understanding that contrast and brightness are used initially to "rough in" the gamma performance. I will email my friend a link to your post, but I have confidence in him to get everything out of my projector that can be gotten, even if his initial approach might have been .. not on the right path.

Jeff
post #1737 of 1782
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike_WI View Post

Here is some info with tables and figures for my calibration showing good curves...

Showoff.

You're using the Lumagen, right?

Jeff
post #1738 of 1782
Are you using HDMI 1 on the RS20? I think HDMI 2 may have issues with saving its HDMI setting. I think the best thing to do is use HDMI 1 and not use the Auto setting on the HDMI level.

Do you have a test disc of any sort to set the brightness and contrast levels? If you have a DVE or spears and munsil, you can use those to set the brightness and contrast. If you don't have those, there are other discs that have settings screens on them you can use. I think the star wars dvd's have them and i'm sure there are others. It almost sounds like your HDMI settings are wrong or your brightness is set too high and your black level is elevated. The problem with the gamma drifting with the JVC's is that the gamma tends to drift lower, which would increase shadow detail rather than crush blacks.

Edit: Here is a link to the free AVS calibration disk you can download and burn. It should have all the test patterns you need to accurately calibrate your display.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=948496
post #1739 of 1782
Quote:
Originally Posted by mrlittlejeans View Post

Are you using HDMI 1 on the RS20? I think HDMI 2 may have issues with saving its HDMI setting. I think the best thing to do is use HDMI 1 and not use the Auto setting on the HDMI level.

Do you have a test disc of any sort to set the brightness and contrast levels? If you have a DVE or spears and munsil, you can use those to set the brightness and contrast. If you don't have those, there are other discs that have settings screens on them you can use. I think the star wars dvd's have them and i'm sure there are others. It almost sounds like your HDMI settings are wrong or your brightness is set too high and your black level is elevated. The problem with the gamma drifting with the JVC's is that the gamma tends to drift lower, which would increase shadow detail rather than crush blacks.

Edit: Here is a link to the free AVS calibration disk you can download and burn. It should have all the test patterns you need to accurately calibrate your display.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=948496

It was HDMI 1, but I think it was Auto. I do have a test disc, but it is a DVD. I will order a Blu-ray version.

Anyway, thank you to everyone for replying. Ryan will be back at it Sat and I'm sure that my projector will be all it can be by the time he leaves.

Jeff
post #1740 of 1782
Get the AVS HD 709 disc downloaded and burnt to a DVD (plays as high definition in AVCHD format fine on many BluRay players). It has all the test patterns you need and has some good 'basic' patterns to ensure the initial brightness and contrast settings are correct.

The HD350/750 gamma controls are notably awkward to work with though as each change you make at one IRE level gets 'smoothed' by the JVC firmware, so you have to keep going back and forth to readjust. There is a post somewhere in here that has a recommended process to follow for quickest results...it is better, but in the end I gave up an do my gamma adjustments in my VideoEQ Pro which I bought initially to provide a CMS which my HD350 doesn't have, but the gamma adjustments are much easier.
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