Official JVC RS20 / HD750 Calibration and CMS thread - Page 7

Originally Posted by Mark Petersen

Good info everyone. I'll capture some of the highlights in the first two posts of this thread when I get some free time after the holidays.

Quick question, does anyone else notice significant changes to brightness and contrast when RGB input is selected compared to 422 and 444? The RS1 was pretty close across all 3 formats but with there is a big difference with the RGB input with the RS20.

Originally Posted by JeffY

Both Manni and I ended up with -8 color.

Originally Posted by Manni01

Hi Jason,

Thanks for your feedback! I have two questions for you:
1) Do you manage to get cyan spot on (dE < 3) with just the CMS
2) With a color control as low as -15 / -22, how close are you regarding luminance? dE < 10 for all colors, or worse?

Thanks for your help

Originally Posted by Manni01

Millerwill, I hope that Jason has been able to get the gamut perfect in the user1 settings, it would be good to get a confirmation it's posible. Please measure and report!

Unfortunately,you won't be able to copy automatically the user1 settings to another user memory, for two reasons:
- there are no global settings copy function (that I could find), you can only copy the gamma setings from a gamma user setting to another (three total).
- you can't copy the advanced settings in the CMS, which is where the gamut is "tweaked".

Of course nothing stops you from copying all the settings manually, and play with a copy of the gamma settings.

I really hope that someone will provide the code to access the service menu. Ideally, you'd want to be able to copy the THX settings (which probably has the closest gamut we could get from the 750, unfortunately with a bit too much green/yellow) and tweak from there, at least to get a better greyscale.

Originally Posted by darinp2

Thanks Jeff. Did you use a test pattern for setting Brightness? With the PS3 I'm getting -6 or -7 for the
Brightness level from some dark patterns (like the AVS Blu-ray test disc). If you put up an all black image and then hit the "Hide" button, does the image change?

Thanks,
Darin

Originally Posted by Kris Deering

I was referring to the RS2 with the -25 statement Jason, don't want to confuse anyone here.

I don't remember where I had set color at on the 750, again it wasn't mine.

Originally Posted by Manni01

I have made a 4th attempt after having found that 1) unfortunately I couldn't use Jeff's settings on my PJ (gamut completely off, especially red, so this confirms what Jason said about settings not necessarily working from one PJ to the other) and 2) my contrast setting was too low after the gamut calibration (I forgot to check afterwards).

So I came back to a 0 contrast setting, and readjusted greyscale and gamut (following the contrast adjustment, green had slided back well into the gamut, and some of the secondaries were off as well, particularly yellow and magenta). The numbers don't necessarily look better, but the picture does because of the contrast correction. dE for cyan is slightly worse (10) because of luminance but its position on x,y is better (almost spot on).

Here are my last settings (50 hours on the lamp):

Iris -15
Contrast 0
Brightness 0
Color -8
Tint 0
Low lamp

Gain R=0, G=0, B=-64
Offset R=4, G=0, B=1

CMS Advanced settings (H S B)
Red -3 -19 3
Green -11 -3 30
Blue 18 24 -12
Yellow 3 -5 30
Cyan -3 -30 30
Magenta -3 0 0

A compilation of tips for those about to embark:

1) If you use HCFR and i1, don't start any measurement on a black screen, it freezes or takes ages to start. Start on any non black screen, and go to the first screen when it tells you to. It's mainly a problem when measuring greyscale (if you get to the 0 IRE screen before clicking the greyscale icon). It's not an issue for the gamut as it starts on a red (non black) screen.

1b) set the gamma reference in your unadjusted (or resetted) gamma preset before you start working on the greyscale.

2) Work hard on the high end/low end color temp adjustments (try to get it as close as possible over the whole scale, especially 10-30 IRE, before you move to gamma). The less gamma adjustments you have to make, the happier you'll be. Also copy your gamma settings before any change, as a minor change at one point can throw the whole scale away.

3) Before adjusting gamma, have a look at the biggest bumps and try to get these better instead of going in sequence (10, 20, 30). Look at the greyscale after any change and go back if it gets worse (it will!).

4) When working on the primaries/secondaries, concentrate on green first, as it's (with yellow and cyan) the color that's the most over saturated. Or depending on yor priorities, you can concentrate on cyan, but I never managed to get it completely right so I compromised on this one.

5) First try to find the right setting for color. I did this by setting the brightness for green to 30 (you'll need it anyway), and then try to find the color setting as close as posible to 0 that will bring green within the gamut, then use saturation to push it back. Jeff and l found -8, Jason apparently betwen -22 and -15.

6) For the colors that don't need full brightness to compensate for the lower color setting, find the right setting for brightness (or get closer) before you work on saturation, as they for some reason affect each other. On my settings (-8 for color), I am short on brigthness for green, yellow and cyan, so I know I'll need 30 brightness anyway, so I set it to the max and then work on saturation and hue.

Sorry if these tips are obvious to most of you, but I thought it may help rookies like me to save a bit of time!

Originally Posted by Jason Turk

I am finding the same...around -5,-6 or thereabouts.

Originally Posted by Manni01

Sorry if these tips are obvious to most of you, but I thought it may help rookies like me to save a bit of time!

Originally Posted by Jason Turk

I am finding the same...around -5,-6 or thereabouts.

Originally Posted by Jason Turk

I tried some more tonight. At -8 I found that I could not fully get the CMS to function (to it's ability that is)....it depended on the projector, but I did not find the same.

Originally Posted by Thebes

Hi,

nice gamut, very nice

Two questions :

the "white point" is really the D65 on your gamut or it's a problem with the "file" ?

And (IMHO) the most important, as you use the ColorHCFR, could you try to measure the primary and secondary color, not only at 100 %, but also at 75 %, 50 % and 25 %. If I have a good memory, the colorHCRF can compare the good reference on those points and the measures. I'm very interested in the result of using CMS under 100 %, and it's possible to realise this with the color HCFR, isn't it ?

Originally Posted by deandob

For those who have successfully calibrated the RS20, can you report if the lumens output has been significantly decreased once calibrated?

Originally Posted by TomHuffman

x y Y CIE94 L S H
R 0.6410 0.3320 0.2139 0.7 0.2% -0.3% 0.5%
G 0.3000 0.5990 0.6661 2.5 -2.8% -0.2% 0.0%
B 0.1500 0.0670 0.0785 2.3 4.2% -4.4% -1.7%
Y 0.4190 0.5040 0.8710 2.4 -2.4% -0.5% -0.3%
C 0.2220 0.3340 0.6138 8.6 -9.4% 4.2% -4.6%
M 0.3240 0.1580 0.2913 0.8 1.0% -2.2% 1.7%

You've got red and magenta nailed, but you're still having problems with green, blue, yellow, and especially cyan.

Originally Posted by Manni01

Thanks Thebes (although as Tm points it out, it looks good in x,y but Y is still quite off especially on green, yellow and cyan.

1) Yes! My white is very slightly off, but the white dot is D65 on my gamut.
2) I'll be hppy to do this but I think I only have 75% patterns on my disks. I''l have a look on the HD basics patterns disc. Also do you have to change a parameter in HCFR when you measure the gamut at less than 100%?

Originally Posted by lovingdvd

I noticed this too and did a lot of experimenting trying to figure out what was doing on. I think this may be due to the way RS20 implements the "Auto" HDMI type detection. As a quick test, instead of changing the brightness if you try changing the HDMI type on the RS20 to Standard or Extended does one of those settings then yield proper black with brightness still set to 0? I did in my case. I think this also applies to what Mark Petersen is reporting above.

Originally Posted by Lawguy

I think that this is right. The auto setting does not work properly.

Originally Posted by Manni01

Talking of which, which setting do you recommand on the BD player? Enhanced or Standard? I stayed on standard but was wondering. I know I'll have to recalibrate if I change it, but just to know what you guys recommand.

Originally Posted by Lawguy

It shouldn't matter if you calibrate properly.

However, if the source is encoded with BTB ot WTW material, and you calibrate so that you can see this stuff, you will be able to see only with the enhanced setting.

Originally Posted by Manni01

Thanks Lawguy. Just to clarify, does it mean that if I calibrate around a standard setting (which I've done for my BR source), if there is btb or wtw material in the source I won't be able to see it? Can this happen with a normal BD movie (if yes could you give me some examples)? It's only my HTPC that sends an enhanced signal, and I thought it was because it does use the whole 0-255 range as its a computer. But if BTB or WTW material can be encoded on standard BD movies, that would mean you have to calibrate in enhanced mode in order to make sure you're not losing information in some cases?

Originally Posted by Lawguy

The standards say that Bluray disks should not display BTB or WTW material. I have heard that sometimes standards are not followed but I know of no particular circumstances.

If you calibrate to display BTB, for instance, you are really raising video black above what it otherwise would be. I don't know why anyone would want to do that.

Originally Posted by Lawguy

The standards say that Bluray disks should not display BTB or WTW material. I have heard that sometimes standards are not followed but I know of no particular circumstances.

If you calibrate to display BTB, for instance, you are really raising video black above what it otherwise would be. I don't know why anyone would want to do that.

Originally Posted by pmeyer

There was a big discussion of this over in the Yamaha 663 receiver thread (it clips btb/wtw content on it's HDMI passthrough).

1) Some disks did have messed up black levels where black detail went well below 16. Dirty Dancing was (I believe) an example. These were broken disks, however, and exceptions rather than the rule.

2) The standards support levels going outside of the 16-235 range. There is no restriction on a disk containing those values. However, a properly calibrated display should show anything below 16 as the darkest black, and anything above 235 as the whitest white.

3) PC desktops and the PS3 can put out full 0-255 range. However, when sending out video, they should (?) be putting out 16-235. Ideally, the PC would be adjusted to 16-235 (video levels) at all times, otherwise you would have to switch calibration settings on the projector every time you played video.

Just my recollection from the discussion over there.

Originally Posted by Lawguy

I think that this is right. The auto setting does not work properly.

Originally Posted by capitano

I confirm.

Originally Posted by Manni01

For example you say x for blue is off by 4.2% (if I understand your results well), but from your own data x for blue should be 0.150, so I'm a bit confused. Are you using the value for rec709? Or did I get something completely wrong from your tutorial?

Originally Posted by Manni01

So I'm afraid I need a bit more guidance to understand what is so wrong in my results apart from a small lack of brightness in G, Y and C.