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Official JVC RS20 / HD750 Calibration and CMS thread - Page 9

post #241 of 1782
There might be a way to set the timeout time in the menu; I think the RS1 has that.
post #242 of 1782
There is a setting in the menu for always on.
post #243 of 1782
Quote:
Originally Posted by ChristopheCherel View Post

It could be very interisting to lauch test of all saturations of primaries and secondaries with color HCFR and publish the gamut results.
Personnaly, i had perfect positions of primary and secondary colors but saturations was unsaturated. For example 100% green was good but 75% green was at 60% instead of 75%.

Hi,

ouch, it was my main interrogation and it seems it doesn't work properly .

If it's confirmed, IMHO, no interest in this case
post #244 of 1782
Quote:
Originally Posted by TomHuffman View Post

BTW, could someone try the following: measure the xy points (you can ignore luminance for this test) for RGBCYM using a 100% test pattern. Then repeat using a 75%, then 50%, and then 25% patterns. Then please report the 48 data points.

I would be happy to do this but I only have 100% and 75% patterns available.

The 75% xys looked good but I did not save those measurements.
post #245 of 1782
Quote:
Originally Posted by Free View Post

There is a setting in the menu for always on.

Thanks. I had already tried that, but it didn't seem to make any difference. Try setting that to ON. Then pull up the Gain control for instance, and click on Red so the control w/slider is on the bottom of the screen. Now wait x seconds and it'll go off. Does yours work that way or am I missing something?

Now some controls like the CMS and gamma stay up indefinitely until closed off which is good, but I don't think that has to do with this setting but rather certain functions like this are wired up that way.
post #246 of 1782
Quote:
Originally Posted by Thebes View Post

Hi,

ouch, it was my main interrogation and it seems it doesn't work properly .

If it's confirmed, IMHO, no interest in this case

What gives you reason to think it doesn't work properly? Have you tried testing this or heard others report that it does not?
post #247 of 1782
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lawguy View Post

I would be happy to do this but I only have 100% and 75% patterns available.

The 75% xys looked good but I did not save those measurements.

Here ya go, included are 0%, 25%, 50%, 75%, 100% Color saturation windows available for download here:http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=948496
post #248 of 1782
Quote:
Originally Posted by lovingdvd View Post

Thanks. I had already tried that, but it didn't seem to make any difference. Try setting that to ON. Then pull up the Gain control for instance, and click on Red so the control w/slider is on the bottom of the screen. Now wait x seconds and it'll go off. Does yours work that way or am I missing something?

Now some controls like the CMS and gamma stay up indefinitely until closed off which is good, but I don't think that has to do with this setting but rather certain functions like this are wired up that way.

Sorry, I have only tried it on the main menu's and just assumed it would work on the rests of the sub menu's.
post #249 of 1782
Quote:
Originally Posted by lovingdvd View Post

What gives you reason to think it doesn't work properly? Have you tried testing this or heard others report that it does not?


Hi,

the information is in the post I quote (From Christophe Cherel) :

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...6#post15377176



It's the only post I saw something about this and not only 100 % and IMHO, it's a very bad new if it's confirmed .
post #250 of 1782
Quote:
Originally Posted by Thebes View Post

Hi,

the information is in the post I quote (From Christophe Cherel) :

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...6#post15377176



It's the only post I saw something about this and not only 100 % and IMHO, it's a very bad new if it's confirmed .

I see. I believe you are referring to this post in particular? http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...3#post15371273
post #251 of 1782
Hi,

yes, I am,

and normally, I know he uses the ColorHCFR and in this case we can see directly in the CIE, the good place for primary and secondary color at 75 %, 50 % and 25 %

If the 100 % are good, but not 75 % and another, in my mind it doesn't work properly.

post #252 of 1782
Quote:
Originally Posted by TomHuffman View Post

BTW, could someone try the following: measure the xy points (you can ignore luminance for this test) for RGBCYM using a 100% test pattern. Then repeat using a 75%, then 50%, and then 25% patterns. Then please report the 48 data points.

OK. Here is the data. I have little idea if this is good performance:

R: 0: x .305, y .322; 25: x .387, y .321; 50: x .455, y .318; 75: x .528, y .317, 100: x, .642, y .333

G: 0: x .307, y .325; 25: x .308, y .392; 50: x .308, y .438; 75: x .307 y .489; 100: x .300, y .603

B: 0: x .302, y .318; 25: x .268 y .237; 50: x .239, y .172; 75: x .202, y .112; 100: x .153, y .070

Y: 0: x .309, y .326; 25: x .333, y .363; 50: x .353, y .398; 75: x .377, y .436; 100: x .421, y .509

C: 0: x .308, y .325; 25: x .287, y .329; 50: x .271, y .333; 75: x .254, y .334; 100: x .215, y .328

M: 0: x .305, y .323; 25: .308, y .275; 50: x .313, y .233; 75: x .312, y .193; 100: x .316, y .153

These are readings from Saturation patterns. I don't think that this is the kind od data that you wanted after reviewing you linked post. I don't have those kinds of patterns, other than 75%.
post #253 of 1782
Quote:
Originally Posted by dvectord View Post

Lawguy:
I'd also appreciate any other settings you are willing to supply. I plan on trying out several and seeing which works best on my particular one.

Please include lamp setting, and color temp and any offsets.
I'd also like to know if you have a hi power screen since I have one.

Thanks in advance and enjoy the new toy!

I use the high lamp setting and have a high power screen.

I won't supply any of my greyscale numbers because I am convinced that it would do everyone more harm than good. OOTB, the 6500k setting was pretty close for me through most of the greyscale. Use that, if you can't calibrate on your own.

The gamut numbers are probably hit or miss as well but I know from having spent time with the Lumagen HDQ and the RS1 that those numbers translated pretty well among machines. Hopefully it is true here as well.

Subjectively, things are looking very nice.

I watched a bit of Narnia on TV last night and the colors, dimensionality and pop of the picture were amazing. The outdoor ice and snow scenes looked appropriately icy and intentionally desaturated. Outdoor and forest scenes looked appropriately lush and vibrant.

Dark Knight tonight!
post #254 of 1782
BAD NEWS.

I did a 100% and 75% measurements on my user1 calibrated profile and while 100% is close to perfect 75% colors are wayyyys off.

The same measurements on THX show 100% and 75% close.
So it seems that CMS doesn't work properly, if you set correct values at 100% you will get wrong values at 75%.
attached files.
Tom: what do you think about?

 

calib. 30h.zip 5.4111328125k . file

 

calib. 30h 75%.zip 2.7119140625k . file
post #255 of 1782
post #256 of 1782
I am beginning to feel that JVC should offer some guidance about proper usage of CMS and if it turns out that it is not possible to achieve good results across the gamut with the instructions a fix would be in order.
post #257 of 1782
LG: I've tried out your settings (though on 'normal' lamp, and iris = -10) and fine them very nice. I'm alternating between them and Jason's; the pics are very similar, though with diffs. For some pics I like Jason's better, and for others yours. It's been very helpful since I haven't had time to play with it at all, and also lack any CMS experience.

PS Of course Jason's settings are specific to my pj. But what's so remarkable is that they are SO different from what you come up with. E.g., color = -25, Br = -5, Cst = 15, etc., and CMS is vastly diff. I have the feeling that there are many different combinations of settings that yield very similar pics, making it a very 'ill posed' problem.
post #258 of 1782
Quote:
Originally Posted by capitano View Post

BAD NEWS.

I did a 100% and 75% measurements on my user1 calibrated profile and while 100% is close to perfect 75% colors are wayyyys off.

The same measurements on THX show 100% and 75% close.
So it seems that CMS doesn't work properly, if you set correct values at 100% you will get wrong values at 75%.
attached files.
Tom: what do you think about?

It looks like the CMS effects are VERY non-linear.

Here are DVD test patterns for WRGBCYM at 100%, 75%, 50%, and 25% if anyone wants to test this further.

Click here for an iso file.
Click here for DVD files.
post #259 of 1782
Quote:
Originally Posted by Manni01 View Post

from your mini-review

It would be great if people with a colorimeter trying our settings could send back the charts they get. It may help people to realise the limited use of copying settings from another PJ if it sits on the opposite end of the scale.


Hello Manni01,

Thanks for the good job you are doing, mainly for the very detailed procedure you wrote and re-wrote. This will help to understand the nature of the CMS and the way it might work (?).

I entered your data strictly as they are from your test nbr 4. Just to see.
I'm using a Spyder2 probe and the lamp was 6/8 hours old.
I didn't work the greyscale. I have to report that this point is out of the specs by more than 500K for all modes, out of the box.
The source is my notebook and I have with HCFR all the material to check the saturations. One can see the undersaturation concern.

Anyhow, each new set of parameters you provided, improved the quality of the image.

I also produced the charts in user1 and custom1 mode as out of the box, but at 18 hours, sorry. The greyscale improved a bit during this time. One can notice the proper saturations, not perfect but pretty good shape. I did this test with the iris full open. I compared charts produced with position 0 and -14; As I expected, they are identical; this can help for an improved sensitivity of the probe at low IRE. Of course one should balance contrast and brightness with the correct iris setting.

IMO greyscale should be first fine tuned with offset, gain and gamma RGB curves before copying the advanced settings from other PJ.

I will start my own tests as from tomorrow.
My intend is to check one particular point at the step "color"; to get cie and saturation charts with different values in order to draw the response curves. Then for a given "color" adjustment, looking at the response to tint and saturation.
There are so many interactions...a Taguchi design of experiments would be great!

Mr JVC, what does "THX Certified" really involve?
LL
LL
LL
LL
LL
post #260 of 1782
Quote:
Originally Posted by capitano View Post

BAD NEWS.

I did a 100% and 75% measurements on my user1 calibrated profile and while 100% is close to perfect 75% colors are wayyyys off.

The same measurements on THX show 100% and 75% close.

So it seems that CMS doesn't work properly, if you set correct values at 100% you will get wrong values at 75%.
attached files.
Tom: what do you think about?

Isn't the CMS unavailable under THX? If so, could it be that JVC was very aware of the CMS limitations and knew if it was used to tweak the THX settings, they would no longer track accurately and possibly void the THX license? If so, they also knew the CMS as implemented would not only have limitations regarding the ability to set fully accurate colors at any IRE, once set, these values wouldn't track accurately as the stimulus changed! I guess what I am really asking is, in order to obtain THX certification does a display not only have to have accurate colors, but that they have to remain accurate across stimulation levels per some THX specification? If so, it follows that consumers should be able to do this for Rec 709 by whatever means JVC used for the THX preset! I really hope there is a fix in the service menu.
post #261 of 1782
Quote:
Originally Posted by karrih View Post

I am beginning to feel that JVC should offer some guidance about proper usage of CMS and if it turns out that it is not possible to achieve good results across the gamut with the instructions a fix would be in order.

It will never happen with the RS series. JVC Professional markets their units to professional installers. The authorized resellers/installers are supposed to know how to do the setup and provide support to their customers..... The Consumer HD series, well we all know how the retail market supports their customers. Go to your local BB and try to see if they know what CMS is.
post #262 of 1782
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lawguy View Post

OK. Here is the data. I have little idea if this is good performance:

R: 0: x .305, y .322; 25: x .387, y .321; 50: x .455, y .318; 75: x .528, y .317, 100: x, .642, y .333

G: 0: x .307, y .325; 25: x .308, y .392; 50: x .308, y .438; 75: x .307 y .489; 100: x .300, y .603

B: 0: x .302, y .318; 25: x .268 y .237; 50: x .239, y .172; 75: x .202, y .112; 100: x .153, y .070

Y: 0: x .309, y .326; 25: x .333, y .363; 50: x .353, y .398; 75: x .377, y .436; 100: x .421, y .509

C: 0: x .308, y .325; 25: x .287, y .329; 50: x .271, y .333; 75: x .254, y .334; 100: x .215, y .328

M: 0: x .305, y .323; 25: .308, y .275; 50: x .313, y .233; 75: x .312, y .193; 100: x .316, y .153

These are readings from Saturation patterns. I don't think that this is the kind od data that you wanted after reviewing you linked post. I don't have those kinds of patterns, other than 75%.

Thanks Lawguy. Wow these numbers are not very encouraging - seem to be over the place. How do the colors look as you move up %-wise in the patterns? Can you see a very visible shift in the color or does it just become brighter?

For instance the plot of red at 75% with x of .528 is grossly undersaturated. This color would be more of a pink/magenta. Does the pattern look like that (hope not!) or just a less bright version of red at 100%?

For this data did you calibrate at 100% levels or 75% levels. I wonder if the results would be different if done the opposite.

Also you published the xy values only. I think Tom was mainly after the Y portion (of the xyY) which was not posted. The idea was to see if Y tracked properly and did not clip - and that question remains. Can you please post the Y to go along with the xy data you provided for the 25-100% levels?

But in the meantime you may have highlighted even a more significant issue... I'm hoping this is just a measurement or operator error of some sort. Hart to imagine the color could be this far off as the Y % changes. I BRIEFLY played around with the CMS to dial in a quick gamut I was happy with, and in my very limited testing I didn't see any gross errors so I am hopeful this is not an actual issue (because such errors would be quite easy to spot - i.e. something magenta instead of red).
post #263 of 1782
Hi,

I'm thinking about the information coming from Jason and when he said we must decrease the general saturation (color) setting. You can see here the effects of this decrease on a gamut. Those settings have no effect on 100 % but they are at 75, 50 and 25¨%



IMHO, if we must change the general saturation setting (with an effect at 25, 50 and 75 %) and after give the good place at 100 % with the CMS, it must have a problem. Maybe, it's the explanation for the (eventual) "bad" result under 100 %.
post #264 of 1782
Have any of you with a RS2 & the RSVP2 processor as well as the RS20 compaired the end color result between the two?
post #265 of 1782
Quote:
Originally Posted by leDahu View Post

Hello Manni01,

Thanks for the good job you are doing, mainly for the very detailed procedure you wrote and re-wrote. This will help to understand the nature of the CMS and the way it might work (?).

I entered your data strictly as they are from your test nbr 4. Just to see.
I'm using a Spyder2 probe and the lamp was 6/8 hours old.
I didn't work the greyscale. I have to report that this point is out of the specs by more than 500K for all modes, out of the box.
The source is my notebook and I have with HCFR all the material to check the saturations. One can see the undersaturation concern.

Anyhow, each new set of parameters you provided, improved the quality of the image.

I also produced the charts in user1 and custom1 mode as out of the box, but at 18 hours, sorry. The greyscale improved a bit during this time. One can notice the proper saturations, not perfect but pretty good shape. I did this test with the iris full open. I compared charts produced with position 0 and -14; As I expected, they are identical; this can help for an improved sensitivity of the probe at low IRE. Of course one should balance contrast and brightness with the correct iris setting.

IMO greyscale should be first fine tuned with offset, gain and gamma RGB curves before copying the advanced settings from other PJ.

I will start my own tests as from tomorrow.
My intend is to check one particular point at the step "color"; to get cie and saturation charts with different values in order to draw the response curves. Then for a given "color" adjustment, looking at the response to tint and saturation.
There are so many interactions...a Taguchi design of experiments would be great!

Mr JVC, what does "THX Certified" really involve?

Hi LeDahu,

Thanks very much for the feedback. One because it's nice to know that my efforts were useful to you, second because with Christmas I didn't have time to run tests at less than 100% sturation and your data in the saturation charts before and after calibration doesn't look encourraging (but is nevertheless very useful!). It looks like as soon as you try to correct the gamut I was working with 100% patterns), everythingis all over the place and actually only tracks at the level you have calibrated. I'll run tests today with my own settings if I can, using the files kindly provided by Tom and will report.

Let's not dismiss the THX mode too early, if it gets better re greyscale after a few hundred hours, it may become our fallback mode if it's then only mode to be accurate at all saturation levels...

Have a good test session today, hope you'll improve your greyscale, and also be careful if you change the contrast settings from it's defautl, it is likely to adversely affect the gamut (at 100%!).
post #266 of 1782
Quote:
Originally Posted by GlenC View Post

It will never happen with the RS series. JVC Professional markets their units to professional installers. The authorized resellers/installers are supposed to know how to do the setup and provide support to their customers..... The Consumer HD series, well we all know how the retail market supports their customers. Go to your local BB and try to see if they know what CMS is.

Are you saying that professionals are able to get everything right? Any way, JVC does provide a manual so it would seem more than proper that also advanced topic would be covered. I guess a couple pages on a website somewhere could do the trick. This of course would require some interest in aftermarketing from JVC.
post #267 of 1782
Quote:
Originally Posted by karrih View Post

Are you saying that professionals are able to get everything right? Any way, JVC does provide a manual so it would seem more than proper that also advanced topic would be covered. I guess a couple pages on a website somewhere could do the trick. This of course would require some interest in aftermarketing from JVC.

Hi,

for laughing, JVC doesn't give information on the latest firmware on the HD1/RS1 (i.e. : 064) so more details on the CMS, it must be a dream.

.....................sorry
post #268 of 1782
Quote:
Originally Posted by lovingdvd View Post

Thanks Lawguy. Wow these numbers are not very encouraging - seem to be over the place. How do the colors look as you move up %-wise in the patterns? Can you see a very visible shift in the color or does it just become brighter?

For instance the plot of red at 75% with x of .528 is grossly undersaturated. This color would be more of a pink/magenta. Does the pattern look like that (hope not!) or just a less bright version of red at 100%?

For this data did you calibrate at 100% levels or 75% levels. I wonder if the results would be different if done the opposite.

Also you published the xy values only. I think Tom was mainly after the Y portion (of the xyY) which was not posted. The idea was to see if Y tracked properly and did not clip - and that question remains. Can you please post the Y to go along with the xy data you provided for the 25-100% levels?

But in the meantime you may have highlighted even a more significant issue... I'm hoping this is just a measurement or operator error of some sort. Hart to imagine the color could be this far off as the Y % changes. I BRIEFLY played around with the CMS to dial in a quick gamut I was happy with, and in my very limited testing I didn't see any gross errors so I am hopeful this is not an actual issue (because such errors would be quite easy to spot - i.e. something magenta instead of red).

Those measurements are of saturation (25% saturation, etc.) so the lower numbers hould look unsatuated. I misunderstood what Tom was looking for. I'll do what he asked now that I have access to the proper patterns.
post #269 of 1782
All right. Bad news confirmed.

Using Tom's patterns (which, by the way measure differently than the AVS patterns (which is right?)) I have confirmed that things go decidely pear shaped when moving from 100% colors to 75% or under.

It is not as if the results track a little bit off. They are WAY off with some of the colors.

This is very disappointing.

I also confirm that the THX settings do not realy vary from 100% to 75%. The THX settings generally are pretty close, btw.

I recommend using the THX settings, even though you can't adjust gamma or anything else for that matter.
post #270 of 1782
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lawguy View Post

All right. Bad news confirmed.

Using Tom's patterns (which, by the way measure differently than the AVS patterns (which is right?)) I have confirmed that things go decidely pear shaped when moving from 100% colors to 75% or under.

It is not as if the results track a little bit off. They are WAY off with some of the colors.

This is very disappointing.

I also confirm that the THX settings do not realy vary from 100% to 75%. The THX settings generally are pretty close, btw.

I recommend using the THX settings, even though you can't adjust gamma or anything else for that matter.

Thanks for doing this Lawguy, it's just the info I'm looking for before making my final purchase decision as the CMS is the primary reason for the change. Your numbers appear to be consistent with the impressions which I interpreted as color under saturation/offness with CMS engaged reported by at least four members up to this point, DarinP2 and Kris Deering being two of them.

After plotting your numbers I would think the image would take on an overall purplish color as all the reds and blues below 100% saturation steer in that direction, is the what you're seeing on the screen? Unfortunately the THX setting, if anywhere near accurate out of the box, might be useful for purposes of relative accuracy for about two to three hundred hours, after that it won't serve much purpose. I'm thinking there must be something in the service menu to allow, at least THX qualified, calibrators to adjust settings to maintain THX criteria as the lamp and PJ age otherwise "THX Approved" serves imo no material purpose in the projector arena aside from a marketing $tamp of approval.
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