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Blocking of Hardware Audio signals by Microsoft/AMI - Page 4  

post #91 of 157
Quote:
Originally Posted by Aeneas View Post

That is because you were not aware of how to use Hardware Audio sources like CD-IN or Line-IN with your TV Tuner card.
And because of this ignorance, you most like turned your TV Tuner off for large periods of time while listening to MP3 files, YouTube, movies clips and Windows' own audio generation itself.
Your TV Tuner experience with your PC was damaged by that ignorance.

No, I was perfectly aware of those interfaces and how they work. In fact I used the line in on my sound card just fine thank you. My TV experience wasn't damaged in any way as far as I was concerned.

For some reason you seem to be hung up on the fact that only your way of doing things is the "correct" way. That's more than a little arrogant if you ask me.

As others have pointed out to you, if you believe so strongly that your way is the One True TV Experience, build a product that's so good millions of people will buy it and you will have the clout to force Microsoft to do what you want.
post #92 of 157
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jvincent View Post

No, I was perfectly aware of those interfaces and how they work. In fact I used the line in on my sound card just fine thank you. My TV experience wasn't damaged in any way as far as I was concerned.

For some reason you seem to be hung up on the fact that only your way of doing things is the "correct" way. That's more than a little arrogant if you ask me.

As others have pointed out to you, if you believe so strongly that your way is the One True TV Experience, build a product that's so good millions of people will buy it and you will have the clout to force Microsoft to do what you want.

I doubt that is possible, even if anyone were interested in creating such a product.
One of the factors I have noticed is that I have yet to find any officials at any of these TV Tuner companies go On The Record and criticize anything that Microsoft has done.
There can be only one reason for that: fear.

They clearly are fearful that there will be retribution if they raise their objections against Microsoft publicly.
And clearly, if Microsoft can simply choose to obsolete covertly 2 critical devices to the TV Tuner industry, CD-IN and Composite Audio, they could easily obsolete a particular company's product, by ensuring there is code in their operating system which is specifically incompatible with that company, and refusing the certify that company's products.

Interestingly, I have yet to see any of the drivers from Dvico certified by Microsoft, even though I have come to realize from recent observance of the competition, that Dvico's is by far the best TV Tuner product on the market.
A weird realization.
The TV Tuner industry is declining.
Microsoft multimedia managers must be Fired immediately.
post #93 of 157
So, to summarize,
- a person is really pissed with audio implementation in hardware/software;
- claims it to be a conspiracy lead by Microsoft and everybody else;
- claims to have his/her own posts hidden by AVS as a member of the conspiracy when it is readily available.
Here is Bob's answer to one of the rants three years ago:
http://archive2.avsforum.com/avs-vb/...&&#post6483172

If sticking to the position (if you can call it as such) that everybody around is guilty would be "monetizable",
I'd call that a definition of "shill". But I don't think it is, hence, this case is clinical...

Diogen.
post #94 of 157
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by diogen View Post

So, to summarize,
- a person is really pissed with audio implementation in hardware/software;
- claims it to be a conspiracy lead by Microsoft and everybody else;
- claims to have his/her own posts hidden by AVS as a member of the conspiracy when it is readily available.
Here is Bob's answer to one of the rants three years ago:
http://archive2.avsforum.com/avs-vb/...&&#post6483172

If sticking to the position (if you can call it as such) that everybody around is guilty would be "monetizable",
I'd call that a definition of "shill". But I don't think it is, hence, this case is clinical...
Diogen.

What case is this ?
Whether or not to interfere with the free speech of a Microsoft critic ?
I see nothing in this message which responds to any of the TV Tuner issues which this thread has raised.
post #95 of 157
Damn... I keep meaning to bypass this absurd thread, but those damned black hellicopters circling around the thread icon are just SO pervasive...
post #96 of 157
Quote:
Originally Posted by Aeneas View Post

working real hard to prevent their customers from receiving Cable content with this Cablelabs-based OCUR/CableCard crap architecture they have implemented in the Windows Vista operating system.

Man you've got some research to do. The pathetic state of CableCard on the PC is 100% the result of the excessively restrictive licensing requirements set forth by CableLabs. If Microsoft/ATI's CableCard implimentation were any less restrictive, it would never have been given a CableCard license.

Quote:


As I mentioned before, Microsoft should go back to these new found friends they have in the Cable industry and present them with a USB interface protocol specification to allow the PC to control the output channels and various other internal operations within the Cable Set Top Box.

They'd be laughed out of the room. The Cable Industry is too busy renting DVRs to 1000 times more the subscribers than would use your "USB interface protocol specification". Microsoft has no clout with the TV/media industry. Just look how DirecTV pulled the plug on the HDPC20.

Quote:


There is a need for a reliable method to control the channel(s) output by the Cable Set Top Box (amongst numerous other operations within the STB) and infrared IR Blasters is nowhere near reliable.

The connection exists, it's called RS232, and many cable boxes provide a RS232 port for control of channels. You can also use Firewire to change channels.

Maybe there is a need for a better connection, but Motorola, Scientific Atlanta, Echostar have all shown repeatedly that they don't agree.

Quote:


Cable Set Top Boxes should be capable of outputting several decrypted output channels at once, some NTSC, some 1280x720 under the control of the PC.

Hey, we should be able to watch all the channels we subscribe to without a box at all too....

Quote:


Microsoft needs to Fire the incompetent Multimedia managers there first before entering into these negotiations with the cable industry.

Doesn't matter who's doing the negotiating if you can't get the negotiations started. While Microsoft is the dominant company in the PC industry, they've got no influence in the TV/media industry.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aeneas View Post

I am well aware of the motivation behind OCUR. However, as is clear from the reaction to the ATI OCUR product offering and reactions of people even on this forum, the architecture on the PC is too restrictive and thus no one wants to use it nor buy it and thus the Windows OS software support for this OCUR architecture was a waste of money for Microsoft to implement.

I agree, but again, the pathetic state of CableCard on the PC is 100% the result of the excessively restrictive licensing requirements set forth by CableLabs. If Microsoft/ATI's CableCard implimentation were any less restrictive, it would never have been given a CableCard license.

CableCard licensing was written to basically make it impossible to build a CableCard tuner for a PC.

Quote:


Microsoft along with Intel represents the PC and, as a huge entity wields enormous market power.

Not in the Cable industry.

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That is exactly one of the reasons why I have recommended that current Microsoft Multimedia managers be Fired before Microsoft proceeds further in this Cable TV connectivity area.

What leverage does MS have over the Cable industry?

Quote:


Microsoft needs to flex its muscle in Washington, DC and with the Cable industry to fix this problem and allow acceptable freedom to return to TV reception into the PC, in this new HD era.

What are they going to do?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aeneas View Post

I doubt that is possible, even if anyone were interested in creating such a product.

Why? History is filled with people who have seen a need, built a better product, and become huge successes.

Quote:


One of the factors I have noticed is that I have yet to find any officials at any of these TV Tuner companies go On The Record and criticize anything that Microsoft has done.
There can be only one reason for that: fear.

If that was the case, Hauppauge wouldn't have built the HD PVR. You notice it doesn't work with Windows Media Center. It bypasses the limitations of CableCard. Obviously Hauppauge wasn't afraid of MS when the made that.

Quote:


They clearly are fearful that there will be retribution if they raise their objections against Microsoft publicly.

What about the HD PVR? It's

Quote:


And clearly, if Microsoft can simply choose to obsolete covertly 2 critical devices to the TV Tuner industry, CD-IN

It's obviously not that critical, every tuner I have works without a CD-IN. That connection IS obsolete, you just won't accept it. Further, all your problems in this thread can be traced back to a bios update gone wrong.

Why don't you contact your motherboard manufacturer about the obvious bug in their new bios and have them fix it?

Quote:


...and Composite Audio,

No idea what Composite Audio is, but all my tuners accept analog (stereo) audio and work perfectly in that regard. My HD PVR record AC3 perfectly as well. Can't do that with a CD-IN.

Quote:


...they could easily obsolete a particular company's product, by ensuring there is code in their operating system which is specifically incompatible with that company, and refusing the certify that company's products.

Yet the HD PVR exists, and works perfectly, despite not being designed in such a way as to cater to Microsoft.

Quote:


Interestingly, I have yet to see any of the drivers from Dvico certified by Microsoft, even though I have come to realize from recent observance of the competition, that Dvico's is by far the best TV Tuner product on the market.

Probably because DVICO has to submit their drivers to MS for WHQL certification, and DVICO feels that's a waste of time/money.

Quote:


A weird realization.
The TV Tuner industry is declining.

I don't know what you're looking at. I see far, far more people using PCs for TV applications today than I did 5 years ago. Media Center, BDA drivers, Microsoft's various standards have lead to an explosion in the PC multimedia (including TV) area.
post #97 of 157
Quote:
Originally Posted by Aeneas View Post

Reinstalling the old BIOS version is not a solution to the problem.

It is a completely acceptable solution, and one you verified works. You installed a new bios (which the manufacturers say you should only do if you have problems) and it caused you a problem. You reverted back to the previous version and your problem went away.


Quote:


There needs to be a federal prosecutor driven investigation into this theft of functionality out from under the user who has already paid for this functionality. That is a crime.
And the Microsoft manager of multimedia responsible must be Fired immediately.

Why? Because an update broke something? If this was all that was needed to prosecute, we would not have a computer industry at all.


Quote:


The sequence of events makes clear that future motherboards will not allow the CD-IN signal or the Composite Audio signal to be used by the user.
There is no reason to obsolete these signals and I do not see anything that Microsoft is positing to replace them.

If they would not allow it, they would not have allowed you to revert back to an older bios. Since they did, it is obvious they are allowing you to continue to use the CD_IN for something other than an input for a CD.


Quote:


There is no new functionality in this motherboard available after the upgrade.
In fact, when one looks at the page on the motherboard web site where the upgrades are listed, there is no detailed description of what has changed in each upgrade.

Why did you update your bios? If there is nothing wrong with your current bios, and the new bios has no fixes you need, then you should not update the bios. This is what they bios makers and mobo makers say. You updated your bios anyway, then complain that it changes things.


Quote:


This is a scam. A Microsoft/AMI driven scam.

You have yet to show any link between MS and AMI. You claim there is a scam going on, a scam which prevents you from using a CD Input connection for something other than an input for a CD drive...yet you are curently using your CD_IN as an input for something other than a CD drive.


Quote:


And a high proportion of Microsoft's customers simply cannot afford to be ripped off.
They buy their house PC as a 5 year or more investment and cannot afford to add anything else to it or purchase and install a new Operating System (OS).
The purchased computer system must work and continue to work. Anything that Microsoft is doing that inflicts a type of forced obsolescence must be treated as a serious crime and those managers responsible must be punished.
Federal prosecutors should put the development managers of these 2 companies under oath before a Grand Jury to ascertain the truth and find where the fault should lay.

5 years is forever in the PC industry.

Did you purposefully update your bios when you had no need to update it?

So far, the fault seems to lie with you. You did something which was not recommended and it broke something you are doing which most people do not do.

Welcome to the world of computers.


Quote:


There are 100,000's of users using the CD-IN signal to decouple the TV Tuner audio and allow it to be volume controlled individually.
The rest are not aware that this can be done.

I do not believe you. You need to backup your statement with facts.


Quote:


Claiming that no one is using the CD-IN signal, when the main audio card manufacturer, time-honored Creative Labs/Soundblaster, still reserves its most prominent top-edge position for this CD-IN connector, is nonsensical, and indicates a determination to defend Microsoft and AMI which must indicate that this is determined paid public relations work on your part.

I have not clamed no one is using the CD_IN connector. It would be silly to do so, since you are using it. That would show at least one person who uses it.

Are you using a Soundblaster sound card? From what I gather, you are using a connector on the motherboard. Is it a full on connector, or is it simply pins which you have connected to?

If you are not using a Soundblaster sound card, then you should purchase one. If it does not work, contact Creative Labs. If you are using one, contact Creative Labs.

What is funny is that whenever someone disagrees with you, they must be a paid public relations worker. Each time you write this, you minimize your position and make a few more people think you are a loon.


Quote:


I am well aware of the origins of the CD-IN signal, but its presence on the motherboard has evolved into much more critically important usage. And that is why Creative/Soundblaster reserves its prime connector position for this CD-IN connector and describes its purpose as being for TV Tuner cards, Not CD Audio players. (e.g. Sound Blaster® X-Fi™ Xtreme Audio)
http://support.creative.com/manuals/
"5. Aux In connector Connect an analog CD cable (available separately) from the analog output on an audio device like a TV tuner to this connector. "

Are you using a Soundblaster sound card?


Quote:


Again, attempts to marginalize the core functionality of CD-IN and Composite Audio simply bring into stark relief the absurdity of discussion in forums like this where discussion is dominated by public relations workers.

Do you see anything that Microsoft has done so far, even in the newer operating system Vista, to solve the problem of loss of Composite Audio in and allow the user to receive the Composite Video/Audio signal from the Cable Set Top Box ?

Microsoft does not make motherboards or sound cards.

As shown by others, you can still use the CD_IN with Vista if you simply turn off the microphone and select CD_IN. You simply choose to ignore them. Of course, this also requires that you do not do things which are not recommended, which you have already said you have done.
post #98 of 157
Quote:
Originally Posted by jimwhite View Post

Damn... I keep meaning to bypass this absurd thread, but those damned black hellicopters circling around the thread icon are just SO pervasive...

Ditto. It's like watching a car wreck unfold before you.
post #99 of 157
Quote:
Originally Posted by Aeneas View Post

Maybe this is what Microsoft spent their Multimedia engineering budget on over the past 3 years:
working real hard to prevent their customers from receiving Cable content with this Cablelabs-based OCUR/CableCard crap architecture they have implemented in the Windows Vista operating system.

I think we all agree that OCUR based systems should be able to be added to a whitebox PC. We should not need a special built OEM system for it. This is not MS' fault, CableLabs owns CableCard and they require it. Nothing anyone can do about it.


Quote:


As I mentioned before, Microsoft should go back to these new found friends they have in the Cable industry and present them with a USB interface protocol specification to allow the PC to control the output channels and various other internal operations within the Cable Set Top Box.

CableLabs would smite anyone who violates their rules. They own the technology, they can do what they wish with it. Your best bet is to contact your Congressman and see if he will bust the CableLabs monopoly on the technology.


Quote:


There is a need for a reliable method to control the channel(s) output by the Cable Set Top Box (amongst numerous other operations within the STB) and infrared IR Blasters is nowhere near reliable.
In fact, with the Hauppauge HD PVR, this IR Blaster functionality does not work at all, even with the industry dominant 3250HD Set Top Box from Scientific Atlanta/Cisco.

I have never had a problem controlling my Motorola set top box with my Microsoft Remote blasters. You need to follow the steps in the setup routine, it will walk you through testing the speed of transmission, etc. This will make it reliable.

Of course there are other things invovled, such as interference, proper placement of the blaster onto the set top box, etc. None of those things can be corrected by MS.


Quote:


Cable Set Top Boxes should be capable of outputting several decrypted output channels at once, some NTSC, some 1280x720 under the control of the PC.
Microsoft needs to Fire the incompetent Multimedia managers there first before entering into these negotiations with the cable industry.

Microsoft does not create Cable Set Top Boxes.
post #100 of 157
better than your noontime soap TV show!
post #101 of 157
Quote:
Originally Posted by stanger89 View Post

Microsoft has no clout with the TV/media industry.

My hope is that Windows 7 will change this. Supposedly, media center is a priority in this version.


Quote:


Yet the HD PVR exists, and works perfectly, despite not being designed in such a way as to cater to Microsoft.


I wish it was designed in such a way as to cater to Microsoft...and still be able to do its job. I would own one.
post #102 of 157
Quote:
Originally Posted by jarthel View Post

better than your noontime soap TV show!

Yeah, but the soaps have hot women in them.
post #103 of 157
OKay.... just for you...

post #104 of 157
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by stanger89 View Post

Man you've got some research to do. The pathetic state of CableCard on the PC is 100% the result of the excessively restrictive licensing requirements set forth by CableLabs. If Microsoft/ATI's CableCard implementation were any less restrictive, it would never have been given a CableCard license.
They'd be laughed out of the room. The Cable Industry is too busy renting DVRs to 1000 times more the subscribers than would use your "USB interface protocol specification". Microsoft has no clout with the TV/media industry. Just look how DirecTV pulled the plug on the HDPC20.
The connection exists, it's called RS232, and many cable boxes provide a RS232 port for control of channels. You can also use Firewire to change channels.
Maybe there is a need for a better connection, but Motorola, Scientific Atlanta, Echostar have all shown repeatedly that they don't agree.
Hey, we should be able to watch all the channels we subscribe to without a box at all too....
Doesn't matter who's doing the negotiating if you can't get the negotiations started. While Microsoft is the dominant company in the PC industry, they've got no influence in the TV/media industry.
I agree, but again, the pathetic state of CableCard on the PC is 100% the result of the excessively restrictive licensing requirements set forth by CableLabs. If Microsoft/ATI's CableCard implimentation were any less restrictive, it would never have been given a CableCard license.
CableCard licensing was written to basically make it impossible to build a CableCard tuner for a PC.
Not in the Cable industry.
What leverage does MS have over the Cable industry?
What are they going to do?
Why? History is filled with people who have seen a need, built a better product, and become huge successes.
If that was the case, Hauppauge wouldn't have built the HD PVR. You notice it doesn't work with Windows Media Center. It bypasses the limitations of CableCard. Obviously Hauppauge wasn't afraid of MS when the made that.
What about the HD PVR? It's
It's obviously not that critical, every tuner I have works without a CD-IN. That connection IS obsolete, you just won't accept it. Further, all your problems in this thread can be traced back to a bios update gone wrong.
Why don't you contact your motherboard manufacturer about the obvious bug in their new bios and have them fix it?
No idea what Composite Audio is, but all my tuners accept analog (stereo) audio and work perfectly in that regard. My HD PVR record AC3 perfectly as well. Can't do that with a CD-IN.
Yet the HD PVR exists, and works perfectly, despite not being designed in such a way as to cater to Microsoft.
Probably because DVICO has to submit their drivers to MS for WHQL certification, and DVICO feels that's a waste of time/money.
I don't know what you're looking at. I see far, far more people using PCs for TV applications today than I did 5 years ago. Media Center, BDA drivers, Microsoft's various standards have lead to an explosion in the PC multimedia (including TV) area.

Again, it is Microsoft's fault that the cable industry has been able to affirm these restrictions in law and regulations in Washington, DC.
In addition, serious problems with the PC Windows TV Tuner operating system software support, many of which I have described, have left Microsoft with a smaller market of TV viewers who view TV through the PC.
That leaves Microsoft with a weaker hand with which to bargain with the Cable TV industry.
Microsoft simply is not playing its role.

For instance, amongst the numerous problems I have described is the situation where when the Hauppauge HD PVR Arcsoft software starts up, it mutes the Dvico FusionHDTV5 CD-IN audio.
It is absolutely critical that someone at Microsoft is on top of this situation and assigns blame on the correct party, and Microsoft is the only company of the 3 in the perfect position to debug the DirectX calls and the drivers and point the finger at the correct party.

Now, from what we have seen in this thread, it may indeed be Microsoft themselves who are again interfering with the Dvico CD-IN when the Arcsoft starts up and makes a particular DirectX call, as part of a clear policy to interfere with CD-IN.
Right now, there is no way to know, but someone in top management at Microsoft has to recognize that Microsoft Multimedia managers simply not producing and Fire them as the first order of business.

There are huge Value-Added advantages to watching TV on the PC.
Picture In Picture (PIP) a capability we know TV buyers seek and buy is something that is accomplished on the PC by simply buying a second TV Tuner card, shaping the TV picture windowapproriately and sticking that window in the desired corner of the screen.
The user could have 3 or 4 x PIP, using $50 PCI PCI-E and USB TV Tuner devices.
I should reiterate here that Arcsoft crap windows cannot be shaped and thus interfere with the advantages of the PC here.
The only problem here is whether any of these Tuner products interfere with each other.
Microsoft is not performing to attack interoperability causes and place appropriate fault.

Another PC TV Value Added is Closed Captions.
No one uses Closed Captions on the TV because it obscures the picture.
However, as I have described there are big reasons for people who Are Not Deaf, to use Closed Captions.
Lyrics to songs, punchlines in jokes or drama missed at key moments, Watching TV while Mute (eg. while talking on the phone), language translation of the text.
In addition on the PC, the Closed Captions can be placed in a separate External Window, hidden behind other windows until needed.
This is a big Value Added advantage over the TV format.

Another Value Added is portability. Shows can be recorded onto a laptop/notebook using a schedule, for instance, and then taken to work or wherever and watched during lunch.
A DVR cannot be taken to work and it is difficult if possible at all to copy show files from the DVR to the PC.

The DVR can store only around 40 hours, depending on the quality required.
The PC user, with a cheap $129 1.5 TeraByte hard disk drive and software codec bit rate converter programs could store a 1,000 to 2,000 quality hours on their PC.

I also described another audio problem with Arcsoft where, when its integrated Volume controls are used up or down, it affects, not the preferred 1) internal software or hardware pre-amp prior to feeding the PC Wave audio input, or 2) the Wave level in SNDVOL32.exe, but the worst 3) tampers with the Master control in SNDVOL32.exe.
This means that changing the volume from within Arcsoft changes the volume for all audio on the PC including Wave CD-IN and Line-IN.
That means this even defeats the workaround which experienced users use to enable Hardware Audio for Dvico or ATI to provide a separate volume control slider in SNDVOL.exe and allow volume balancing.
Microsoft DirectX should definitely not allow any application to control the level of the Master level of SNDVOL32.exe, which they are doing easily through Microsoft's DirectX calls. Applications affecting the Wave slider should also be discouraged or banned.
Then Microsoft should give away MSDN software for the Windows XP platform to allow TV Tuner softwar eto perform software 'pre-amp' before feeding Wave, just like Windows Media Player has implemented.

I should mention that any application running on Windows XP can perform its own internal 'pre-amp' software volume control, prior to feeding the Wave audio mixer input.
Microsoft's own Windows Media Player does this.
In fact technologies like MMX and similar newer instruction extensions in the x86 family are there specifically to perform this sort of tedious operation at accelerated speed.
If you change the volume on WMP, it does not tamper with SNDVOL32.exe Wave level.
It is heavily in Microsoft's interests that all Windows XP audio-generating software perform this pre-amp operation.
Thus the software to do this, which is non-trivial, should have been given away by Microsoft MSDN. Microsoft has failed to perform here, yet again.
Thus, it is not necessary to wait for Windows Vista, in order to obtain this TV Tuner audio functionality.

And of course the ultimate Value-Added is that the TV viewer has direct access to his own PC while watching TV, for instance to look at IMDB information about the film they are watching, to look up the lyrics on a song where Closed Captions are not available, to Google or WIKI who somebody is who is mentioned in a news story.
That of course is a huge advantage Value Added to watching TV on the PC, of course.

There are numerous other Value Added advantages which the PC platform has over the Cable DVR which should have the people, the voters, clamoring to Washington, DC to demand access to them, but there continues to be a confused TV Tuner mess on the PC TV platform which only Microsoft Multimedia department is in a position to clarify.

Microsoft's leverage against the Cable TV industry will come from demonstrating that the PC TV platform is a much better platform to Watch TV than the Cable DVR.
That will prime popular demand and then Congress and the FCC will act to force, if needed, cooperation by the Cable and CableLabs operatives with the PC TV industry.
This requires new Microsoft Multimedia management.
post #105 of 157
Quote:
Originally Posted by Aeneas View Post

Again, it is Microsoft's fult that the cable industry has been able to affirm these restrictions in law and regulations in Washington, DC.
In addition, serious problems with the PC Windows TV Tuner operating system software support, many of which I have described, have left Microsoft with a smaller market of TV viewers who view TV through the PC.
That leaves Microsoft with a weaker hand with which to bargain with the Cable TV industry.
Microsoft simply is not playing its role.

What exactly is Microsoft's role? Wait, let me guess they are the 800lb gorilla that is supposed to beat other into submission, right? As others have said, Microsoft has no leverage. They have a platform that hasn't lived up to what they wanted it to be, and a content industry that is very happy without the content on the PC. Microsoft has gone to them, spent millions, and came up with a solution like OCUR that sucks because the cable industry would rather lease you a $10/month DVR than a $2/month CableCARD.

What is Microsoft's role again?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aeneas View Post

It is absolutely critical that someone at Microsoft is on top of this situation and assigns blame on the correct party, and Microsoft is the only company of the 3 in the perfect position to debug the DirectX calls and the drivers and point the finger at the correct party.

The BIOS update caused the problem, right? It worked before the BIOS update? Seems you already found the correct party, why Microsoft has anything to do with you updating your BIOS is beyond everyone here at AVS.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aeneas View Post

Right now, there is no way to know, but someone in top management at Microsoft has to recognize that Microsoft Multimedia managers simply not producing and Fire them as the first order of business.

Since I know you are on top of your game, it might interest you to know that most of the people who were in top positions in the media related divisions at Microsoft last year are now in different positions. You seem to have won your battle without trying.

Everything else below this part of your post has to do with third-party ISV, not Microsoft. You might want to contact them if you want something changed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aeneas View Post

Microsoft's leverage against the Cable TV industry will come from demonstrating that the PC TV platform is a much better platform to Watch TV than the Cable DVR.

Problem, it isn't a better platform when you consider all things.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aeneas View Post

This requires new Microsoft Multimedia management.

Once again, the guys in charge last year and now in different positions. Research will help you solve all of your lifes problem, and likely many more.

Chris
post #106 of 157
link ----> WinTV-HVR-1600



Analog TV features

* Composite/S-Video and audio inputs, for cable or satellite set top boxes or VCRs.



A stereo audio input.. hrmmmm.. and it's been there on Hauppauge tuner cards for, oh 5+ years.. Microsoft and Hauppauge must have been in cahorts!!!
post #107 of 157
But that will only give you a damaged TV experience on your PC!
post #108 of 157
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by hellokeith View Post

link ----> WinTV-HVR-1600
http://www.hauppauge.com/pics/hvr160..._diagram-b.jpg
Analog TV features
* Composite/S-Video and audio inputs, for cable or satellite set top boxes or VCRs.
A stereo audio input.. hrmmmm.. and it's been there on Hauppauge tuner cards for, oh 5+ years.. Microsoft and Hauppauge must have been in cahorts!!!

Not sure what this guy is talking about or referring to.
Hauppauge puts out a lot of incompetently conceived products and has failed to grasp important concepts in the Windows PC platform for decades, such as audio, closed captions, ability to shape the window etc.
post #109 of 157
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisL01 View Post

What exactly is Microsoft's role? Wait, let me guess they are the 800lb gorilla that is supposed to beat other into submission, right? As others have said, Microsoft has no leverage. They have a platform that hasn't lived up to what they wanted it to be, and a content industry that is very happy without the content on the PC. Microsoft has gone to them, spent millions, and came up with a solution like OCUR that sucks because the cable industry would rather lease you a $10/month DVR than a $2/month CableCARD.

What is Microsoft's role again?

The BIOS update caused the problem, right? It worked before the BIOS update? Seems you already found the correct party, why Microsoft has anything to do with you updating your BIOS is beyond everyone here at AVS.

Since I know you are on top of your game, it might interest you to know that most of the people who were in top positions in the media related divisions at Microsoft last year are now in different positions. You seem to have won your battle without trying.

Everything else below this part of your post has to do with third-party ISV, not Microsoft. You might want to contact them if you want something changed.

Problem, it isn't a better platform when you consider all things.

Once again, the guys in charge last year and now in different positions. Research will help you solve all of your lifes problem, and likely many more.
Chris

Microsoft multimedia managers who agreed with the Cable TV industry to implement OCUR architecture according to the current specification and restrictions were incompetent and should have been Fired.

Even with the reduced leverage which may exist, the fact is that each PC Watching TV means a sale/rent of a Cable Set Top Box to that PC customer.
There is clearly a business interest for Cable TV industry to want to sell/rent the box into every room in your house where there is a PC.

Your reading comprehension has failed again. Someone here claiming tobe at Microsoft has already admitted that the BIOS failure resulting in loss of CD-IN and Composite Audio was the result of miscommunication between Microsoft and AMI.
I actually do not believe this and continue to believe that Microsoft intentionally disabled these Hardware Audio sources for some crazy incompetent reason.

The question is When were these Microsoft Multimedia managers you mentioned Fired/Reassigned ?
Was it before or after the Vista and AMI_BIOS blockages of Hardware Audio sources such as CD-IN and Composite Audio ?
Whatever new managers exist, they certainly have not fixed these problems yet.

Customers out here are depending on Microsoft to be on top of all interoperability issues which arise. They are the ones who can play the honest broker and assign appropriate blame and thus propel fixes that are needed in 3rd party software or hardware.

The points I laid out make clear that the PC is a much better venue to Watch TV and Record TV and PlayBack TV than the Cable DVR.
There is no comparison.
However this will not gel until the Bugs are fixed and incompatibilities eradicated.

Microsoft Multimedia managers needs to be wholesale Fired before this will occur.
post #110 of 157
JimWhite! Thanks Man. You made the thread complete.

wow...
post #111 of 157
Hi,

The topic starter seems to have the following problem:
He is trying to achieve the following:
Internal-Tv-Card, uses an internal-audio-header to connect to the cd-in header on the motherboard/soundcard.

On windows XP with an old bios this works fine
On windows XP with a new bios this no longer works
On Vista with any bios this no longer works

You basically have 2 problems
1: bios
2: vista

Problem 1 BIOS:
-After the bios flash, a CMOS reset is recommended and often needed
-A new bios often comes with new drivers, all motherboard component/related drivers should be updated to the newest version.
-Remember it is sometimes needed to reformat after updating the bios, it could be that the hardware adres for the CD-IN has been changed and windows needs to be re-installed to recognize this change.

If all of the above fail, the CD-IN should be tested with another device, like the CD/DVD-rom to see if that works.

If all of the above fails a support-ticket should be opened with the motherboard manufacturer/audio chipset creator
If the CD-IN does work with the CD/DVD-rom you should also open a support-ticket with the tv-card manufacturer.

Problem 2: Vista:
The CD-IN header is disabled by default.
This is because VISTA uses digital-audio playback for CD's

Here is a document explaining how to enable it for TV-CARD usage:
http://www.leadtek.com.tw/eng/suppor...nd_setting.pdf
post #112 of 157
Quote:
Originally Posted by Aeneas View Post

Microsoft multimedia managers who agreed with the Cable TV industry to implement OCUR architecture according to the current specification and restrictions were incompetent and should have been Fired.

Your right, they should have throw it back at CableLabs (the one with the power) and thus they would have ended up with nothing. I'm glad your not the one representing these companies.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aeneas View Post

Even with the reduced leverage which may exist, the fact is that each PC Watching TV means a sale/rent of a Cable Set Top Box to that PC customer.

No it doesn't. Anyone who wants to match TV on a PC is already paying for access to cable and to lease an STB. Getting the content onto a PC means nothing to providers. They already made their sale.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aeneas View Post

There is clearly a business interest for Cable TV industry to want to sell/rent the box into every room in your house where there is a PC.

There is more of an interest to lease STBs everywhere there is a TV in the house. America's have more TVs in their homes then they do PCs.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aeneas View Post

Your reading comprehension has failed again. Someone here claiming tobe at Microsoft has already admitted that the BIOS failure resulting in loss of CD-IN and Composite Audio was the result of miscommunication between Microsoft and AMI.

Microsoft doesn't care about BIOSs updates, that is not their business. My understanding of your issue is that once you upgraded your BIOS it broke, once you downgraded it fixed itself. Microsoft doesn't write BIOSs, nor do they "certify" or test them. They have no part in what AMI or any other company does. This right here has proved your issue has nothing to do with Microsoft or Windows. If it doesn't work in Vista, that might be Microsoft's issue, but as "real world" users have expressed no one uses the connections that you are considering to be must haves.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aeneas View Post

Whatever new managers exist, they certainly have not fixed these problems yet.

Your right, because none of what has happened has anything to do with their division or business. This is like asking GM to fix my Ford.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aeneas View Post

Customers out here are depending on Microsoft to be on top of all interoperability issues which arise. They are the ones who can play the honest broker and assign appropriate blame and thus propel fixes that are needed in 3rd party software or hardware.

Sure, they can, but they don't and it isn't their job. Take your issue up with AMI.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aeneas View Post

The points I laid out make clear that the PC is a much better venue to Watch TV and Record TV and PlayBack TV than the Cable DVR.
There is no comparison.
However this will not gel until the Bugs are fixed and incompatibilities eradicated.

Clearly you have zero understanding of business, the content industry, the PC industry, and dare I say "the real world."

I'd suggest you write a business impact case and send it to Microsoft. Nothing will change without them knowing about, and this isn't the place to let them know. If this is such a big problem, write it down and send it in.

Chris
post #113 of 157
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by tetsuo55 View Post

Hi,
The topic starter seems to have the following problem:
He is trying to achieve the following:
Internal-Tv-Card, uses an internal-audio-header to connect to the cd-in header on the motherboard/soundcard.

On windows XP with an old bios this works fine
On windows XP with a new bios this no longer works
On Vista with any bios this no longer works

You basically have 2 problems
1: bios
2: vista

Problem 1 BIOS:
-After the bios flash, a CMOS reset is recommended and often needed
-A new bios often comes with new drivers, all motherboard component/related drivers should be updated to the newest version.
-Remember it is sometimes needed to reformat after updating the bios, it could be that the hardware adres for the CD-IN has been changed and windows needs to be re-installed to recognize this change.

If all of the above fail, the CD-IN should be tested with another device, like the CD/DVD-rom to see if that works.

If all of the above fails a support-ticket should be opened with the motherboard manufacturer/audio chipset creator
If the CD-IN does work with the CD/DVD-rom you should also open a support-ticket with the tv-card manufacturer.

Problem 2: Vista:
The CD-IN header is disabled by default.
This is because VISTA uses digital-audio playback for CD's

Here is a document explaining how to enable it for TV-CARD usage:
http://www.leadtek.com.tw/eng/suppor...nd_setting.pdf

This is nonsense.
It is never necessary and by law should never be necessary to reinstall anything after a motherboard BIOS flash.
Motherboard flashes are provided primarily to fix Bugs found after release of the BIOS.
New functionality must require new motherboard purchase.
A motherboard flash update should Never introduce new problems. Never.
The motherboard is simply not a variable.
It is and must continue to be the stable bedrock of the system.
post #114 of 157
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisL01 View Post

Your right, they should have throw it back at CableLabs (the one with the power) and thus they would have ended up with nothing. I'm glad your not the one representing these companies.

No it doesn't. Anyone who wants to watch TV on a PC is already paying for access to cable and to lease an STB. Getting the content onto a PC means nothing to providers. They already made their sale.

There is more of an interest to lease STBs everywhere there is a TV in the house. America's have more TVs in their homes then they do PCs.

Microsoft doesn't care about BIOSs updates, that is not their business. My understanding of your issue is that once you upgraded your BIOS it broke, once you downgraded it fixed itself. Microsoft doesn't write BIOSs, nor do they "certify" or test them. They have no part in what AMI or any other company does. This right here has proved your issue has nothing to do with Microsoft or Windows. If it doesn't work in Vista, that might be Microsoft's issue, but as "real world" users have expressed no one uses the connections that you are considering to be must haves.

Your right, because none of what has happened has anything to do with their division or business. This is like asking GM to fix my Ford.

Sure, they can, but they don't and it isn't their job. Take your issue up with AMI.

Clearly you have zero understanding of business, the content industry, the PC industry, and dare I say "the real world."
Chris

No idea what the point is here.

Each Set Top Box is an additional expense to the customer and more money for the Cable company, thus, it is they the cable companies who should be attempting to persuade every household with a PC to add a STB and have that PC use a Tuner card to watch TV.
Just in the same way that software companies target people who already own a PC.

Microsoft clearly told AMI to disable the CD-IN and Composite Audio signals and since AMI depends on Microsoft for technical interaction with Microsoft/Intel, they follow Microsoft's instructions.

The fact that Microsoft caused the identical failure to occur in Windows Vista indicates clearly that they were the prime mover in causing this whole problem.
However, in the case of the BIOS, disabling existing hardware which the customer already purchased must be considered a crime and prosecuted as such.

The claim that Microsoft has nothing to do with AMI BIOS developer is nonsense. Their relationship with AMI and any other BIOS developer is almost as close as the relationship with Intel.
And that is what the Microsoft guy who commented on the AMI portion of this fiasco has already admitted. However, he did not tell the truth about how this occurred. This was not a miscommunication between Microsoft and AMI -- Microsoft ordered AMI to disable the Hardware Audio sources.

Playing the honest broker and monitoring interoperability is Microsoft's role and in fact is their main argument against being broken up by federal AntiTrust.
The industry needs Microsoft's to play this role to clarify and facilitates fixes in interoperability of disparate hardware and disparate software attempting to run inside the same PC.
If Microsoft wishes to refuse to play this role, then they should be broken up by federal antitrust. They have never abdicated this role to my knowledge and that is what PCI Plug and Play and WHQL and other QA at Microsoft is all about.

My description of the problems the TV Tuner industry faces and Microsoft's failure within that failure so far, is completely accurate.
Microsoft Multimedia managers must be Fired to fix this problem.
post #115 of 157
Quote:
Originally Posted by Aeneas View Post

No idea what the point is here.

Each Set Top Box is an additional expense to the customer and more money for the Cable company, thus, it is they the cable companies who should be attempting to persuade every household with a PC to add a STB and have that PC use a Tuner card to watch TV.

Right, except that the Cable industry had a pre-existing thing called CableCARD that was mandated by the FCC. Instead of that additional expense being $8-10/month for the cable provider, it is now well under $2/month and the cable companies get to eat the costs of training and supporting third party products instead of their own.

So, why exactly do cable companies want to work with Microsoft? There is no money it in for them. And remember, CableCARD exists because of the FCC.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aeneas View Post

Microsoft clearly told AMI to disable the CD-IN and Composite Audio signals and since AMI depends on Microsoft for technical interaction with Microsoft/Intel, they follow Microsoft's instructions.

Clearly? Where is this documented? Have you contacted AMI for more information? Microsoft? Clearly seems more like "I think so" or "I assume so" or "I just made up off the top of my head".

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aeneas View Post

And that is what the Microsoft guy who commented on the AMI portion of this fiasco has already admitted. However, he did not tell the truth about how this occurred. This was not a miscommunication between Microsoft and AMI -- Microsoft ordered AMI to disable the Hardware Audio sources.

I must have missed that comment. Where did he say Microsoft forced them to take it out?

Chris
post #116 of 157
Quote:
Originally Posted by jimwhite View Post

OKay.... just for you...


Quoting you just so the picture appears again.
post #117 of 157
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisL01 View Post

Right, except that the Cable industry had a pre-existing thing called CableCARD that was mandated by the FCC. Instead of that additional expense being $8-10/month for the cable provider, it is now well under $2/month and the cable companies get to eat the costs of training and supporting third party products instead of their own.

So, why exactly do cable companies want to work with Microsoft? There is no money it in for them. And remember, CableCARD exists because of the FCC.

Clearly? Where is this documented? Have you contacted AMI for more information? Microsoft? Clearly seems more like "I think so" or "I assume so" or "I just made up off the top of my head".

I must have missed that comment. Where did he say Microsoft forced them to take it out?
Chris

The CableCard is a simple decryption device which is trivial to manufacture.
That does not represent a significant cost to mass produce especially with the huge economics of scale of manufacture that the cable companies enjoy.
Then, that Cablecard $2/month is a monthly fee which adds up. $24/year is serious money, when coming from 80 Million households.
Plus the $70 installation fee.
Cable industry is making a profit on CableCard.
Cable modem prices have been Fixed at $79 for ages (last I checked in the past year). That price fixing represents huge profits for the Cable industry.

CableCard was the Cable Industgry argument why the HD signals should not be free and clear descrambled/decrypted, like the feds had required NTSC analog TV to be, years back.
As they argument was being made, Microsoft should have been right there arguing against it or at least limiting its scope to prevent the catastrophe which now exists with the OCUR restrictions which no one wants.

The Hardware Audio devices lost were identical with Vista and AMI BIOS.
This was no accident and no coincidence.
post #118 of 157
Quote:
Originally Posted by tetsuo55 View Post

Problem 2: Vista:
The CD-IN header is disabled by default.
This is because VISTA uses digital-audio playback for CD's

Here is a document explaining how to enable it for TV-CARD usage:
http://www.leadtek.com.tw/eng/suppor...nd_setting.pdf

Since we both know adobe is in cahoots with microsoft and ami to prevent the use of the CD_IN connector wrt tv tuners, I thought I would copy and paste the contents of the evil pdf file:


Q: Why can't I hear any sound from my TV card in Windows Vista?
A: Please update your sound card driver to the latest version which supports Windows Vista. Then do the following procedures:

1. Make sure you have connected the audio cable from your TV card to CD-in on your mother board.
2. Open the Volume Mixer (see the following page) and select Playback Devices or Recording Devices setting.
3. Select Recording Devices. In this page, right click to select "Show Disabled Devices". Then you can find many devices (ex. CD Audio, Stereo, or Aux)
4. Right click on CD Audio and enable it.


The rest is specific to the Winfast application.

I know, this is amazing similiar to what the microsoft worker said to do. He was ignored, since this will obviously cause his PC to become alive and try to kill him in order to silence his message...
post #119 of 157
Quote:
Originally Posted by Aeneas View Post

The CableCard is a simple decryption device which is trivial to manufacture.
That does not represent a significant cost to mass produce especially with the huge economics of scale of manufacture that the cable companies enjoy.
Then, that Cablecard $2/month is a monthly fee which adds up. $24/year is serious money, when coming from 80 Million households.
Plus the $70 installation fee.
Cable industry is making a profit on CableCard.
Cable modem prices have been Fixed at $79 for ages (last I checked in the past year). That price fixing represents huge profits for the Cable industry.

CableCard was the Cable Industgry argument why the HD signals should not be free and clear descrambled/decrypted, like the feds had required NTSC analog TV to be, years back.
As they argument was being made, Microsoft should have been right there arguing against it or at least limiting its scope to prevent the catastrophe which now exists with the OCUR restrictions which no one wants.

The Hardware Audio devices lost were identical with Vista and AMI BIOS.
This was no accident and no coincidence.

You seem to think Microsoft is such a powerful company. Lets compare Microsoft to Sony. Microsoft represents the most powerful software maker. Sony represents the most powerful entertainment maker.


All numbers in thousands of US Dollars
Microsoft
30-Jun-08
Total Revenue 60,420,000
http://finance.yahoo.com/q/is?s=MSFT&annual

Sony
31-Mar-08
Total Revenue 89,601,281
http://finance.yahoo.com/q/is?s=SNE&annual

Sony alone has more money flowing through it than Microsoft. If we then add in all the money flowing through the rest of the entertainment industry powerhouses, we see that Microsoft is a small fish in the entertainment ocean.
post #120 of 157
Quote:
Originally Posted by Aeneas View Post

The fact that Microsoft caused the identical failure to occur in Windows Vista indicates clearly that they were the prime mover in causing this whole problem.

Microsoft simply disabled something that most people do not ever use. Use the very simple guide, given to you a few time, to enable it in Vista.
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