The Official AVS Dish DTVPal DVR Topic! - Page 417

Originally Posted by J-D-H

That very last bit throws me. My clock is now at least temporarily accurate via a few recent changes here, but I fear this would reverse at any time (it all depends on which of two CBS stations my DVR finds attractive to use for TVGOS data on any one day). So now I don't know whether to enable updates at 6:30 PM as you suggest, or disable it. What do you foresee possibly happening with updates enabled when the clock is at least temporarily accurate?

Originally Posted by mabuttra

The PAL prefers your CBS station simply because you entered a zip code that matches the DMA of the TVGOS data that is transmitted by that station. When you enter a Baltimore zip code, it will then switch to the Baltimore station for TVGOS data because it matches its DMA.

Originally Posted by J-D-H

My CM-7000PAL never seems to look solely at the zip code setting to decide what CBS affiliate to use for TVGOS data.
I had repeatedly tried switching to a Baltimore zip code, but my clock skew (AKA error) never improved.

Originally Posted by mabuttra

Since you have been trying out the Baltimore zip code, I think I would disable updates, until you figure out whether that is a workable solution.

The reason 6:30pm was picked, is because it is after the TVGOS downloads end, and before the prime time shows come on. Prime time is when most people record stuff, and need for their clock to be right. Only you can tell if the reboot solution works for you. If your clock isn't correct, or doesn't stay correct all evening after a 6:30pm reboot, then the clock skew issue you are seeing is different than what Austin sees. I believe jrpastore has been using the "updates reboot" method to keep his clock correct in the evening.

Mark

Originally Posted by gary-in-dc

My DTV-Pal has been running from ontime to 4 mins. ahead of real time since those AVS members contacted WUSA-9 and they did something to correct it. It used to be always slow by a couple minutes to 5 minutes. Today it is 2 mins. fast Better to have programs start a tad early then late I guess but I had to delete and re-create my timers again!
I am wondering if any of the drift is individual DVRs clock since you mentioned differences in multiple units. I don't know how the clock actually works on these things.

Originally Posted by AV Empiricist

To differentiate between TV Guide listings and PSIP, I simply looked 4-7 days forward. No flaky info disappearing acts have ever occurred in my guide listings.

All three dvrs are keeping perfect time. (One is still set to a Baltimore zip as a precaution). So, among three of us (i.e., gary-in -dc, J-D-H, and me), the attempts at resolving the time skew for DC have met with dramatically different results. All of my antennas are essentially UHF. At 12 miles from VHF 7 & 9, it's no problem but VHF 11 & 13 are more than twice the distance so it takes more effort to bring them in cleanly (with UHF antennas). There could be more than one source of this time skew problem, but I'm suspicious it has to do with each Pal's schedule for time updates. Since one of my dvrs never skewed and another was corrected by changing my zip back and forth, is the solution to revert to a DC zip at an optimum time of day? My update option is disabled and has been forever. Why ask for trouble?

J-D-H, since my time skew was resolved with 0 reboots, I suspect resetting the zip is the key element here. The prima-fascia evidence is that signal quality may be a factor in setting the TV Guide station but signal strength isn't. For me, 9 was at 98-100 and 13 was at 73. I picked up the Baltimore time and Guide on the first try without a hiccup. Although, when I attempted the same exercise a while later, the change wasn't immediate.

If you're picking up a clean enough signal from 13, I doubt the DC time will wander back of its own accord. My guess is, if you change the zip back at the right time of day, the DC time will be fine. I'm still wondering if gary-n-dc would benefit from some signal attenuation.

Originally Posted by AV Empiricist

To differentiate between TV Guide listings and PSIP, I simply looked 4-7 days forward. No flaky info disappearing acts have ever occurred in my guide listings.

All three dvrs are keeping perfect time. (One is still set to a Baltimore zip as a precaution). So, among three of us (i.e., gary-in -dc, J-D-H, and me), the attempts at resolving the time skew for DC have met with dramatically different results. All of my antennas are essentially UHF. At 12 miles from VHF 7 & 9, it's no problem but VHF 11 & 13 are more than twice the distance so it takes more effort to bring them in cleanly (with UHF antennas). There could be more than one source of this time skew problem, but I'm suspicious it has to do with each Pal's schedule for time updates. Since one of my dvrs never skewed and another was corrected by changing my zip back and forth, is the solution to revert to a DC zip at an optimum time of day? My update option is disabled and has been forever. Why ask for trouble?

J-D-H, since my time skew was resolved with 0 reboots, I suspect resetting the zip is the key element here. The prima-fascia evidence is that signal quality may be a factor in setting the TV Guide station but signal strength isn't. For me, 9 was at 98-100 and 13 was at 73. I picked up the Baltimore time and Guide on the first try without a hiccup. Although, when I attempted the same exercise a while later, the change wasn't immediate.

If you're picking up a clean enough signal from 13, I doubt the DC time will wander back of its own accord. My guess is, if you change the zip back at the right time of day, the DC time will be fine. I'm still wondering if gary-n-dc would benefit from some signal attenuation.

Originally Posted by dkreichen1968

Both models are made by Echostar, the parent company of Dish. Since Dish no longer markets it there isn't any incentive to upgrade the software until/unless Dish/Echostar starts using them as a streaming device for BlockBuster VOD.

Originally Posted by comcastardly

I searched for this but it seems that the AVS search function isn't working right now.

Just today, one of my DTVPal DVRs started giving out fuzzy, slightly lip sync'd audio. It does it on live TV, delayed TV and recorded shows too. It does it on all channels.

When I first turn on the unit, the audio is perfect but after about 10 seconds, it gets fuzzy with crackles and it sounds like a blown speaker sounds. If I switch to a recorded show, it does the same thing. Video is perfect. I tried changing the audio settings but it does the same thing all the time regardless.

The unit is connected via HDMI.

What can I do to fix this and what is causing it?

EDIT: Well, I just fixed the problem. All I did was unplug the HDMI cable from the back of the DVR while it was on and then plug it back in? Must have been a loose HDMI cable or something associated with HDMI. But it is back to working perfectly again so I am happy once again!

Originally Posted by WillN937

I have a DTVPal DVR and a DTVPal Plus both connected via composite to a Panasonic DRM-E85. If I record something using the Pal+ the picture looks almost as good as HD. If I transfer something I recorded on the DVR to DVD it is obviously of lower quality. All I can deduce from this is that the analog converter in the DVR must not be very good.

Originally Posted by jrpastore

Sounds like you're almost out of the woods! Good luck...



Yeah, you do have that backwards. Dish/Echostar is certainly the developer of this DVR. It was originally called the TR-50 by Echostar, later the DTVPal DVR when Dish was selling it directly, later (briefly) the Freestar DVR when Dish stopped selling it directly and they were distributing it exclusively through Sears/K-Mart, and most recently the CM-7000 now that their latest OEM distribution channel is in operation. Kinda gives you the impression that this thing is an unwanted orphan doesn't it...

I wouldn't feel too sheepish about the purchase though. The only real alternative (HD OTA DVR) is TIVO and I they've got their own issues. My parents have been through 3 or 4 of their TIVO Premier boxes in the last couple of years. The Cust Serv Rep at TIVO even acknowledged that they've had "a lot of stability issues with that model". So don't feel bad, you've got similar functionality, similar (maybe fewer) frustrations, and a wad of cash still in your pocket!

Originally Posted by jrpastore

The update from Austin is that this auto-reboot method no longer works reliably so I have stopped using it. I think the timestamps must be skewed sometimes even during prime-time. I say this because even the manual intervention of changing time-zone (or zipcode) and then changing it back, no longer works reliably either. I have attempted several times in the middle of prime-time, with no affect on clock skew. I know I should fire up TSREADER to confirm what's really happening, but I haven't bothered.

What used to work in Austin is what Mark is describing to you in his post. Under those conditions, timestamps from about 5pm to 11pm were not skewed while timestamps at all other times were skewed. The clock smoothing algorithm in the DVR prevents it from taking immediate advantage of the clean timestamps starting at 5pm so what was needed was a way to force the DVR to drop its TVGOS time lock and re-acquire it during the "clean zone". This could be done manually using the zipcode or time zone trick but that required manual intervention every day sometime after 5pm but before the desired evening recordings started. Mark suggested a way to automate this process using the auto-update feature and that worked pretty well for a while...

So to answer your question, no harm will come from triggering the auto-reboots, but if you've found a solution that doesn't require it I certainly wouldn't recommend it. Also, if the WUSA clock skew issue is some completely different animal than the KEYE clock skew issue, the auto-reboot solution might not do you any good anyway. But it terms of recommended timing the auto-reboot would have to happen AFTER the "clean zone" of unskewed timestamps started (thought to be around 6:30pm now), but at least 5 min BEFORE the intended recording starts. Doing the reboot after primetime would be pointless. You might fix the clock for a brief time, but it will be hosed up again by the following morning and it will remain hosed up when your intended recordings begin that following evening. Confusing I know...

Originally Posted by mabuttra

What I posted above (about DMAs), I posted after reading a couple of people's messages that changing to a Baltimore zip code fixed their clock skew. At the time I didn't think it made sense that Baltimore, and DC would be in different DMAs since they are so close together, but after reading about some people's "success" with switching zip codes, I thought this was the only explanation for why that worked. After seeing what you reported today, it appears to be a fluke that changing zip codes worked for those other guys.

I have also seen enough reports that some clocks are too fast, instead of too slow to conclude that this isn't the same issue that Austin is seeing, so there is no point in trying to use the updates setting to force a reboot at a certain time, since there is no telling when, or if, the clock is ever correct. Also from what jrpastore said, it doesn't appear that works for him any more either.

Mark

Originally Posted by gary-in-dc

...By the way, do you ever have program details show up when you highlight a program (in the guide) and then almost immediately disappear before you are finished reading the description and then not being able to get it back even if you highlight another program and return to the previously highlighted one to finish reading the description? ...

Originally Posted by J-D-H

.... I attribute this to the general lack of interest in O.T.A. broadcasting compared to cable/sat TV.

...

Originally Posted by J-D-H

At this point I have the firmware updates (and accompanying reboots) enabled at 6:30 PM. Our clock is now accurate, but I don't yet know if this is because of or in spite of the reboots. I intend to wait a week, see if the clock accuracy is stable, then try disabling updates and see what happens.

Even if only from technical curiosity, I still wish I understood more about the TVGOS programming data and time updates. Evidently they send data 8 times a day (always? sometimes?). Isn't this more than enough to do the job? It would be interesting to try to estimate the amount of binary information represented by 8 days of programming from 40-50 channels and sub-channels. My guess is the number would be trivially low by computer standards. It's a total guess, but 50 channels x 8 days x 48 half-hr segments (at most) x 100-200 bytes/each (pure guess) = a few megaBytes. If I didn't slip a decimal point, this number wouldn't be low by old NTSC vertical blanking period data transmission standards. However with modern ATSC, the fact that the CBS affiliates may be having bandwidth problems in getting this data to us seems hard to believe. However I suppose I must believe it -- our DVR clock seems to have proved it.

Originally Posted by WillN937

I have had a number of people like telephone repair men and other technicians who see my antenna and assume I have some sort of transmitter. I said something to one person about free HDTV and he assumed I was stealing cable some how.

Originally Posted by J-D-H

However with modern ATSC, the fact that the CBS affiliates may be having bandwidth problems in getting this data to us seems hard to believe. However I suppose I must believe it -- our DVR clock seems to have proved it.

Originally Posted by WillN937

I have had a number of people like telephone repair men and other technicians who see my antenna and assume I have some sort of transmitter. I said something to one person about free HDTV and he assumed I was stealing cable some how.

Originally Posted by J-D-H

Soon I'll try disabling the updates. My guess (and hope) is that you're right and we'll see nothing much happen to the clock.

Originally Posted by J-D-H

[...]
Even if only from technical curiosity, I still wish I understood more about the TVGOS programming data and time updates. Evidently they send data 8 times a day (always? sometimes?). Isn't this more than enough to do the job? It would be interesting to try to estimate the amount of binary information represented by 8 days of programming from 40-50 channels and sub-channels. My guess is the number would be trivially low by computer standards. It's a total guess, but 50 channels x 8 days x 48 half-hr segments (at most) x 100-200 bytes/each (pure guess) = a few megaBytes. If I didn't slip a decimal point, this number wouldn't be low by old NTSC vertical blanking period data transmission standards. However with modern ATSC, the fact that the CBS affiliates may be having bandwidth problems in getting this data to us seems hard to believe. However I suppose I must believe it -- our DVR clock seems to have proved it.

Originally Posted by WillN937

I have a DTVPal DVR and a DTVPal Plus both connected via composite to a Panasonic DRM-E85. If I record something using the Pal+ the picture looks almost as good as HD.

Originally Posted by J-D-H

I can't prove one way of another whether signal strength truly played a role. All I can report is changing the zip code to Balt never impacted the clock error with the antenna pointed at Wash DC. But when I pointed the antenna at Balt with a Balt zip code, bingo, perfect clock. Who knows, maybe some oddity unrelated to signal strength caused these results.

Since ch 9.x and 13.1 are above ch 7, presumably they're both now transmitting in the UHF band. Hopefully your antenna ought to be fine for either of these CBS stations.

Originally Posted by Rammitinski

I have both the DTVPal and the Channel Master CM7000 CECB (and an E85H, among other HDD/DVD recorders).

If recordings from the DTVPal Plus CECB look that good to you, try recording HD broadcasts from a CM7000 (over s-video, it's best output) to your E85H, instead. That oughta blow your socks off.

HD recordings from the DTVPal don't even come close in my experience. In fact, I would rate the PQ from the DTVPal CECB as "middle-of-the-pack" compared to all the other CECB's I've tried. It's pretty soft.

If recording to DVD doesn't even fare as well from the DTVPal DVR, there's no way I'd be able to handle that.

Originally Posted by AV Empiricist

Yeah, it's a shame that the Pal has no S-video output. There is no comparison between S-video and composite. My work-around is to route the component output to a Philips dvd recorder and output the Philips S-video to a panasonic dvd recorder. It seems to be as good as a direct S-video connection.

Originally Posted by jrpastore

You're right, the total bandwidth requirement for the TVGOS datastream is a trivial fraction of the total 19 Mbps bandwidth available to every ATSC broadcaster. The problem is not that the TVGOS datastream is hogging the ATSC bandwidth. The problem is that IF the local broadcaster has over-allocated his 19 Mbps and has almost no reserve capacity left in the stream, THEN the ROVI encoder will buffer its TVGOS datastream (guide and clock data) and trickle it out into the 19 Mbps ATSC stream on a "space available" basis (It's like flying standby during during the evening rush, you may have to wait a while). Most broadcasters leave a considerable portion of their 19 Mbps un-allocated, I've seen some up to 25% or more. Our local CBS affiliate typically only has about 1% of their 19 Mbps available as "reserve". These are the kinds of things that can be measured with the free TSREADER-Lite program and an ATSC tuner card (or external USB tuner).

Originally Posted by Rammitinski

I have both the DTVPal and the Channel Master CM7000 CECB (among other CECB's - and also, an E85H, among other HDD/DVD recorders).

If recordings from the DTVPal Plus CECB look that good to you, try recording HD broadcasts from a CM7000 (over s-video, it's best output) to your E85H, instead. That oughta blow your socks off.

HD recordings from the DTVPal don't even come close in my experience. In fact, I would rate the PQ from the DTVPal CECB as no better than "middle-of-the-pack", compared to the other CECB's I've used. It's pretty soft (yes, I only have the older, "standard" Pal CECB - but it's been confirmed by many that the Pal Plus has the exact, same PQ as the standard model).

If recording to DVD doesn't even fare as well from the DTVPal DVR, I don't think there's any way I'd be able to handle that.

Originally Posted by J-D-H

I've heard that more and more folks are dropping their cable accounts (cost, technical problems, etc.) or their sat accounts (cost, rain fade, snow on the roof, etc.) and coming back to O.T.A. now with ATSC and all of its benefits. I'm always surprised by how many people don't understand that the digital conversion gave rise to maybe 3 times the number of available channels (at last count, over 40 viewable in the Wash DC area). When I explain these things, it's always interesting watching the wheels go round, and them calculating how much they could save each month in $$ and hassles. Maybe if enough do this, the CM-7000 will become less orphaned (I know of very few local cable users who own DVRs, and they all regret the loss of their VCRs).

ST. LOUIS-(BUSINESS WIRE)- Nearly two years after the digital TV transition, antenna sales are exploding as Americans migrate back to over the air reception. This has led antenna manufacturer, Antennas Direct, to its eighth year in a row of double digit growth, with $8.7 million in 2010 revenue and a forecasted $21 million in 2011 revenue, where sales were up 225% in Q1 alone.

To make the digital transition possible, the nation's broadcasters invested $15 Billion dollars in rebuilding their stations. That investment is already paying major dividends as Americans become captivated with digital TV. In fact, the rush back to over-the-air is generating panic in pay TV providers, who for the first time in history, lost a record number of subscribers in 2010. It has also been estimated that 1.6 million people will cancel their cable or satellite by the end of 2011, according to the Convergence Consulting Group.

In the midst of this phenomenon, FCC chairman Julius Genachowski continues to assert that over-the-air broadcasting is no longer needed and consequently should be barred. These assertions are 180 degrees from the reality occurring in living rooms across America. As Antennas Direct's growth demonstrates, the pace of antenna sales are convincingly accelerating as people cut the cord. Viewers appreciate that not only does Digital TV offer improved picture quality, more channels and greater reliability, it's also free to the consumer - an important feature during a time of such economic challenges.

According to Richard Schneider, President of Antennas Direct, Experts have been telling me for 8 years that OTA was dead, yet we have maintained 110% compound annual growth since we started, earning multiple honors on the Inc. 500 fastest growing list. So the uninformed statements by the FCC Chairman are nothing but regurgitation of outdated notions from the waning days of analog TV.

Schneider goes on to point out that for legions of Americans, over-the-air digital TV is the new basic cable. Digital TV is the new disruptive technology, terraforming the media landscape, said Schneider. Think about it. Is it really surprising sales are exploding, considering the Billions invested by broadcasters and the cluelessness of the cable TV companies?

This year we are on pace to liberate nearly 1 million Americans from an unhappy relationship with their pay TV provider while putting over $1.1B annually back in the pockets of our customers, said Schneider.

http://www.antennasdirect.com/blog/a...ales-boom.html

Originally Posted by gary-in-dc

My DTV-Pal has been running from ontime to 4 mins. ahead of real time since those AVS members contacted WUSA-9 and they did something to correct it. It used to be always slow by a couple minutes to 5 minutes. Today it is 2 mins. fast Better to have programs start a tad early then late I guess but I had to delete and re-create my timers again! .

Originally Posted by Rammitinski

I have both the DTVPal and the Channel Master CM7000 CECB (among other CECB's - and also, an E85H, among other HDD/DVD recorders).

If recordings from the DTVPal Plus CECB look that good to you, try recording HD broadcasts from a CM7000 (over s-video, it's best output) to your E85H, instead. That oughta blow your socks off.

HD recordings from the DTVPal don't even come close in my experience. In fact, I would rate the PQ from the DTVPal CECB as no better than "middle-of-the-pack", compared to the other CECB's I've used. It's pretty soft (yes, I only have the older, "standard" Pal CECB - but it's been confirmed by many that the Pal Plus has the exact, same PQ as the standard model).

If recording to DVD doesn't even fare as well from the DTVPal DVR, I don't think there's any way I'd be able to handle that.