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The Official AVS Dish DTVPal DVR Topic! - Page 498

post #14911 of 18096

"Beginning on November 1st 2012 and completing in April 2013 Rovi will be discontinuing the broadcast data service for consumer electronic guides in North America. The guides known as Guide Plus+, TV Guide on Screen and the Rovi Guide will no longer have the ability to receive data via the broadcast data service. Please contact your CE Manufacturer for further details."


Guess you guys know about it

122g7zl.jpg

Will the DTVpal go right to PSIP? When TVGOS is shut off?

Also didn't we pay for lifetime TVGOS with this expensive box. It was the selling point and was included in the price. So Ecostar paid upfront for this service. Can we sue for breach of contract?

Has Rovi given a reason on why they are discontinuing TVGUIDE/TVGOS?

Maybe all the complaints?
Edited by keyboard21 - 11/9/12 at 4:15pm
post #14912 of 18096
Quote:
I wonder how long the power supply, specifically the electrolytic capacitors, will keep functioning. Your symptom sounds like it could be a power supply problem.
His DVR's symptoms sing same old song: a CPU [7109] is on its last leg. Seen that in a few DVR PAL.
post #14913 of 18096
Quote:
Originally Posted by P Smith View Post

His DVR's symptoms sing same old song: a CPU [7109] is on its last leg. Seen that in a few DVR PAL.
Interesting. What causes it? Heat? I hope mine lasts a long time.
post #14914 of 18096
Not sure.
At first glance you would see sort of cold solder or temperature 'crack' of some ball's soldering spots. but the chip is not working after cleaning/reballing/rework. Some of the 7109 chips just overload +3.3VDC rail (IO bus I would guess) and the VR [3.3V] just drop its Vout to 2.6V and limit the current at 0.8A. The rail is feeding other chips like 2x316, but removing only the CPU would bring the voltage to normal 3.3V.
post #14915 of 18096
Quote:
Originally Posted by schultdw View Post

I had a problem crop up on 4 November and my DVR still isn't back to normal.
The problems started shortly after noon when I turned it on. Except that it didn't because it was stuck in the infamous reboot loop. (Yes it is the F208 firmware.) I tried disconnecting the coax to get its attention but that failed. I had to dig up a shorting plug to put on the connector to keep stray RF out of it.
After that a factory defaults reset and it was kind of back to normal

By a shorting plug, do you mean a coax connector that shorts the inner core conductor to the coax shielding?

On the day of the DST change, my f208 DTV PAL system several times rebooted, was unresponsive for 5-10 minutes then rebooted again. After several cycles of that, the system now just is stuck at the "loading please wait" screen. I removed the input coax but it is still stuck rebooting. If a coax shorting plugs helps to fix this, I'll try that.
Edited by DavidG2 - 11/9/12 at 10:43pm
post #14916 of 18096
Sounds scary ... Better use 75 Ohm terminator cap instead of shortening. If you want to prevent leak strong signal from nearest stations.

Practically, disconnecting coax cable from the DVR input should be enough.
post #14917 of 18096
My latest experiences:

By 2 am Friday the clock and guide were back to normal, but when I turned on my DVR around 7:30 pm the clock was once again an hour fast. Additionally, I had no TV Guide logo on the guide screen, and every channel but FOX said 'No Information Available." I tried changing the daylight saving time observation setting to No, but it automatically reverted back to Yes even after I confirmed the change. It also said the time had been acquired from TVGuide. By 9 pm the guide was populated with show information for some other channels, but the clock was still wrong. When I checked again at 2:30 am Saturday, everything was once more correct. (The TV Guide logo is still missing.)
Quote:
Originally Posted by trp2525 View Post

I'm curious if you carried over any program timers (especially recurring program timers) over the recent time change. If so, that could be the cause of your problem. A few years back I kept some recurring program timers over the DST time change and they were fine the first week. In the second week after the time change, however, they shifted by an hour. Based on that experience I NEVER carry ANY timers over the time change. I delete all of them and re-enter them after the time change takes place. I have not had any problems since I started doing that.

I did not. I set manual recordings daily as programs come up, like I would a VCR.
Quote:
Another point to make is that even though you were watching a program "live" while another was recording, your live show is still recording to the hard drive. Did you do any "trick" functions (pause, skip ahead, skip back, etc.) while you were watching your "live" program? From my own personal experiences (and I have duplicated this behavior) I have found that if you happen to be using a "trick" function on a program that is currently being recorded to the hard drive at the same time another program is supposed to start to record it can cause some problems. I have had skipped recordings, misnamed recordings, etc. all related to this.

I also did nothing while watching the live show. I use the DVR to watch that channel because where my TV cannot pick up the station, its tuner can. But even if I had, how would that have brought about the one hour shift I observed with the clock and guide? You mention experiencing problems with the recording when using "trick" functions, but I did not have any problems with the recording.
Quote:
Regarding your Scandal recording being 58 minutes long even though it was set to record for 62 minutes, that's a glitch that I have seen from time to time. I've had programs that I've recorded show up afterwards being a minute or two short or long but the entire program is recorded. Last night's Grey's Anatomy was 62 minutes long but showed up in my DVR as 63 minutes after it recorded. I think it has to do with the way the DVR calculates the time from the data stream that it is recording. Different channels have different data stream rates and I think the DVR is not always totally accurate in the recorded time that it displays after the recording has taken place.

Interesting. I've never experienced it myself. Every recording I've ever done--that successfully completed--has been exactly the length of time for which it had been set to record.
post #14918 of 18096
Quote:
Originally Posted by ABHiDef View Post

My latest experiences:
By 2 am Friday the clock and guide were back to normal, but when I turned on my DVR around 7:30 pm the clock was once again an hour fast. Additionally, I had no TV Guide logo on the guide screen, and every channel but FOX said 'No Information Available." I tried changing the daylight saving time observation setting to No, but it automatically reverted back to Yes even after I confirmed the change. It also said the time had been acquired from TVGuide. By 9 pm the guide was populated with show information for some other channels, but the clock was still wrong. When I checked again at 2:30 am Saturday, everything was once more correct. (The TV Guide logo is still missing.)

I'm going to throw out some guesses as to what might be going on in your situation. Keep in mind that we are in new territory here with TVGOS being shut down nationwide between now and April 30, 2013. We may all experience behaviors and uncover additional glitches that we never experienced when we had rock-solid TVGOS in our respective areas.

I'm thinking that the TVGOS provider in your area has already stopped sending out data and that's why you have lost your TV Guide logo on the guide and why you were getting so much "No Information Available" in your guide. Even though your clock set page says that the time was acquired from TV Guide, perhaps that will stay like that even if TVGOS disappears until you do a reset to factory defaults.

If I were you I would do a reset to factory defaults and see what happens. The F208 firmware will initially use a "weighted mean" of all of the PSIP times in your area to set the clock. If it does pick up a TVGOS data stream it will lock on to that to set the clock. The TV Guide logo should re-appear if TVGOS program data is received. If neither of those happens then you should be relatively confident that you are one of the first areas to lose TVGOS. frown.gif

The other thing I was wondering about is if you are in an area that is relatively close to a time zone change boundary. Can you pick up TV stations that are in two different time zones? If so, especially in the absence of local time from TVGOS, the DVR might be getting confused with the one-hour difference in the PSIP times for the stations in the two different time zones.
post #14919 of 18096
Quote:
Originally Posted by DavidG2 View Post

By a shorting plug, do you mean a coax connector that shorts the inner core conductor to the coax shielding?
On the day of the DST change, my f208 DTV PAL system several times rebooted, was unresponsive for 5-10 minutes then rebooted again. After several cycles of that, the system now just is stuck at the "loading please wait" screen. I removed the input coax but it is still stuck rebooting. If a coax shorting plugs helps to fix this, I'll try that.

I just grabbed one off of the distribution panel since it has an eight way power divider that I have never used. I checked and it actually has a 75 Ohm resistor inside.

Mine was not stuck on loading please wait but would cycle through that, display the loading guide screen and progress bar, and finally flash for an instant a frame or two of video (possibly stored rather than live) before starting the process again.

Tuesday evening it finally settled down but not without first becoming unresponsive to the remote. After a soft reset (at least it responded to that!) the time was correct and has been since. Electrons are notional things. :-)
post #14920 of 18096
Quote:
Originally Posted by keyboard21 View Post


"Beginning on November 1st 2012 and completing in April 2013 Rovi will be discontinuing the broadcast data service for consumer electronic guides in North America. The guides known as Guide Plus+, TV Guide on Screen and the Rovi Guide will no longer have the ability to receive data via the broadcast data service. Please contact your CE Manufacturer for further details."

Guess you guys know about it
122g7zl.jpg
Will the DTVpal go right to PSIP? When TVGOS is shut off?
Also didn't we pay for lifetime TVGOS with this expensive box. It was the selling point and was included in the price. So Ecostar paid upfront for this service. Can we sue for breach of contract?
Has Rovi given a reason on why they are discontinuing TVGUIDE/TVGOS?
Maybe all the complaints?
Has anyone contacted Dish Network or Channel Master regarding the impending demise of broadcast TVGOS? As Rovi suggests? Since it is a crucial component of the DVR, you would think these manufacturers would be obligated to do something. Because PSIP only provides limited data, any long term recording capability becomes quite problematic , if not almost impossible. Which is the primary function of the DVR, soon to becoming a big brick. It sounds like you may have to purchase a new DVR which receives guide data via an internet connection.
post #14921 of 18096
Quote:
Originally Posted by tylerSC View Post

Has anyone contacted Dish Network or Channel Master regarding the impending demise of broadcast TVGOS? As Rovi suggests? Since it is a crucial component of the DVR, you would think these manufacturers would be obligated to do something. Because PSIP only provides limited data, any long term recording capability becomes quite problematic , if not almost impossible. Which is the primary function of the DVR, soon to becoming a big brick. It sounds like you may have to purchase a new DVR which receives guide data via an internet connection.
Let's all contact them, but how? Do we use http://www.dish.com/support/ for Dish? I doubt Dish would even care since they dumped DTV Pal DVR and its support long ago.
Edited by phildaant - 11/10/12 at 10:29am
post #14922 of 18096
Quote:
Originally Posted by keyboard21 View Post



Will the DTVpal go right to PSIP? When TVGOS is shut off?
Also didn't we pay for lifetime TVGOS with this expensive box. It was the selling point and was included in the price. So Ecostar paid upfront for this service. Can we sue for breach of contract?
Has Rovi given a reason on why they are discontinuing TVGUIDE/TVGOS?
Maybe all the complaints?
The DVR wil use PSIP for any channel that does not have TVGOS data. Very soon that will be all so the main thing you will notice is that you probably won't have program information more that a few hours out. Some stations more, some less.

TVGOS was a feature of the DVR but unlike most "real TVGOS" devices EchoStar got the right to use that stream as the result of a lawsuit years ago. EchoStar wrote their own software and ROVI or GemStar or whoever claims no responsibility for if or how it works. ROVI probably only sees its obligation to its paying customers (advertisers and perhaps CE manufactures).

I can think of three reasons ROVI may be dropping this after all these years. Perhaps since most cable providers supply DVRs with their own EPG the OTA market does not generate enough advertising income to make it profitable. Perhaps as you suggest they decided it is just too much hassle with us complaining and the stations not wanting to help fix the problem and the cost to redesign the encoder to work being too high. I see very few TVGOS enable devices at BestBuy so maybe CE manufactures don't see this as a value added feature they are willing to pay for.

At any rate I wish it worked (had bad time in my market for months), I will miss it even using a zip code for an adjacent market that does not provide listings for my local stations, and I don't think there is an grounds for DTVpal DVR owners to make a claim against anyone for losing something we basically got for free and Dish said "where available".

What are the chances that someone will think they can get the business model to work and buy the rights to the format and make some hardware? I don't know but I expect slim to none would be close.
post #14923 of 18096
Quote:
Originally Posted by WillN937 View Post

The DVR wil use PSIP for any channel that does not have TVGOS data. Very soon that will be all so the main thing you will notice is that you probably won't have program information more that a few hours out. Some stations more, some less.
TVGOS was a feature of the DVR but unlike most "real TVGOS" devices EchoStar got the right to use that stream as the result of a lawsuit years ago. EchoStar wrote their own software and ROVI or GemStar or whoever claims no responsibility for if or how it works. ROVI probably only sees its obligation to its paying customers (advertisers and perhaps CE manufactures).
I can think of three reasons ROVI may be dropping this after all these years. Perhaps since most cable providers supply DVRs with their own EPG the OTA market does not generate enough advertising income to make it profitable. Perhaps as you suggest they decided it is just too much hassle with us complaining and the stations not wanting to help fix the problem and the cost to redesign the encoder to work being too high. I see very few TVGOS enable devices at BestBuy so maybe CE manufactures don't see this as a value added feature they are willing to pay for.
At any rate I wish it worked (had bad time in my market for months), I will miss it even using a zip code for an adjacent market that does not provide listings for my local stations, and I don't think there is an grounds for DTVpal DVR owners to make a claim against anyone for losing something we basically got for free and Dish said "where available".
What are the chances that someone will think they can get the business model to work and buy the rights to the format and make some hardware? I don't know but I expect slim to none would be close.
We all paid for TVGUIDE it was in the price of the box. Thus we have a right to it; Of course Dish will do nothing as usual. That is why I will NEVER get Dishes Satellite service. They do not deserve my business. IF they treat there SAt customers like DTVpAL customers. I want nothing to do with them
post #14924 of 18096
Quote:
Originally Posted by keyboard21 View Post

Also didn't we pay for lifetime TVGOS with this expensive box.
Yup ... the lifetime of TVGOS, apparently.
post #14925 of 18096
Quote:
Originally Posted by keyboard21 View Post

We all paid for TVGUIDE it was in the price of the box. Thus we have a right to it; Of course Dish will do nothing as usual. That is why I will NEVER get Dishes Satellite service. They do not deserve my business. IF they treat there SAt customers like DTVpAL customers. I want nothing to do with them
Yes you did pay for the functionality when you bought the device, but I suspect that in the owners manual there is a statement to the effect that the service is not gauranteed to function and may be cased at any time.
My sharp TV states this as I expect any major brand also probably includes similar language to notify the customer of down the road business deals going bad.
post #14926 of 18096
Quote:
Originally Posted by qz3fwd View Post

Yes you did pay for the functionality when you bought the device, but I suspect that in the owners manual there is a statement to the effect that the service is not gauranteed to function and may be cased at any time.
My sharp TV states this as I expect any major brand also probably includes similar language to notify the customer of down the road business deals going bad.

You are correct that the TV Guide service is not guaranteed as it does state the following in the DTVPal DVR's owner's manual on page 44 under Program Guide issues:

"For the full guide to be displayed, TV Guide data must be transmitted in
your area. You have access to the TV Guide data if you see the TV
Guide logo in the top right corner of the program guide. If the TV Guide
logo is not showing, then please check that your ZIP code has been
entered correctly. Once the ZIP code is verified correct, wait until the
following day to recheck the Program Guide screen. If the TV Guide
logo is still not present, then unfortunately the extended guide data may
not be available in your area."
post #14927 of 18096
Also there is no mention of TV Guide on the box. Just says "Displays multi-day electronic program information". And of course from the depths of the owner's manual "in your area". I'm glad they designed it to revert to PSIP and at least still be useable.
post #14928 of 18096
Quote:
Originally Posted by keyboard21 View Post

We all paid for TVGUIDE it was in the price of the box. Thus we have a right to it; Of course Dish will do nothing as usual. That is why I will NEVER get Dishes Satellite service. They do not deserve my business. IF they treat there SAt customers like DTVpAL customers. I want nothing to do with them

I'm sure they won't miss you, or any of us. These DVRs were just a miniscule fraction of their business. They lost money on the products, they have abandoned them, and moved on.

And no, we don't have a "right" to TVGOS service. There was no guarantee that it would be available for any length of time in the future, and Dish has no obligation to us in that regard. TVGOS service was only an option in these boxes when and where the service was available. Soon it will no longer be available anywhere. We were lucky to have it as long as we did. If you have a complaint about the discontinuing of TVGOS, blame TVG, not Dish.

Enjoy it while you can, and if it doesn't meet your needs, move on to something else that does.
post #14929 of 18096
Perhaps the call should be addressed to Echostar too. As a designer and manufacturer.
post #14930 of 18096
Quote:
Originally Posted by wiscojim View Post

I'm sure they won't miss you, or any of us. These DVRs were just a miniscule fraction of their business. They lost money on the products, they have abandoned them, and moved on.
And no, we don't have a "right" to TVGOS service. There was no guarantee that it would be available for any length of time in the future, and Dish has no obligation to us in that regard. TVGOS service was only an option in these boxes when and where the service was available. Soon it will no longer be available anywhere. We were lucky to have it as long as we did. If you have a complaint about the discontinuing of TVGOS, blame TVG, not Dish.
Enjoy it while you can, and if it doesn't meet your needs, move on to something else that does.
Do we not deserve a reason?
Also I and thinking the DTVpal dvr will be much cheaper on ebay. This is a shame a real shame
post #14931 of 18096
Quote:
Originally Posted by keyboard21 View Post

Do we not deserve a reason?
Also I and thinking the DTVpal dvr will be much cheaper on ebay. This is a shame a real shame

A reason for what, and from whom?

Dish long ago dropped all support for the DVRs. TVGOS has no obligation to tell the general public why and how they make their business decisions.

The decision has been made, it's going away and not coming back. Get over it.

.
post #14932 of 18096
Indy market area.......Noticed that I have no TVGOS logo as of last night. I assume they dumped us here in Central Indiana.

mad.gif
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post #14933 of 18096
Quote:
Originally Posted by keyboard21 View Post

.....Also I and thinking the DTVpal dvr will be much cheaper on ebay.....

I guess the word hasn't gotten out yet. There's a used DTVPal DVR on eBay right now for $285 (But It Now price) plus $16.95 shipping. eek.gif
post #14934 of 18096
Quote:
Originally Posted by ccrider2 View Post

Indy market area.......Noticed that I have no TVGOS logo as of last night. I assume they dumped us here in Central Indiana.
mad.gif
mad.gif
mad.gif

What city are you in? Do you know what station carries the TVGOS there? PBS, or CBS?

Mark
post #14935 of 18096
Rovi needs to sell its equipment and let someone else take over. I remember reading that Dish got to use TVGOS thru a lawsuit they won against Rovi. If this is true. Then ROVI is in violation of a court order. This might be the best course of action
Edited by keyboard21 - 11/10/12 at 7:59pm
post #14936 of 18096
Quote:
Originally Posted by mabuttra View Post

It has been a few days since "lawsuit" was mentioned over there, and it was mostly panned. The most we could hope for is a class action lawsuit in which we wind up getting a few dollars from Sony for our troubles. Since the Sony was discontinued several years ago, standing around beating our chests, and demanding things from Sony that they probably won't give us, is quite pointless. This is off topic however, so I'll try to bring it back on topic by addressing your other question as to why Rovi is doing this. This is as good an analysis as I've seen as to a possible reason why. Basically they are hemorrhaging money, and they are trying to appease the shareholders by showing that they are trying to cut costs.
Mark
Thanks for the info. Must be the reason. . Rovi might be in violation of the court order from the lawsuit they lost to Dish or was it Echostar. One of them. They gave the use of the TVGOS as part of a settlement they lost.

They haven't even answered my e-mail
post #14937 of 18096
Bickering removed. Cease the attacks or risk losing posting privileges in this thread.
post #14938 of 18096
Quote:
Originally Posted by keyboard21 View Post

Rovi needs to sell its equipment and let someone else take over.

There's just one problem with this: no company would want to purchase either the rights or the equipment to maintain the service. There's no financial incentive to do so, and there's every incentive to let it die at this point.
post #14939 of 18096
Quote:
Originally Posted by Aleron Ives View Post

There's just one problem with this: no company would want to purchase either the rights or the equipment to maintain the service. There's no financial incentive to do so, and there's every incentive to let it die at this point.
Why not ADs in the guide just like the cable company's? Or ask for donations like PBS . I am sure many would donate $5 to have a TVguide.

This would not be a problem if PSIP was more organized. With out TVgos we miss watching and recording shows and they lose because we do not watch their ads. Seemed like a symbiotic relationship
post #14940 of 18096
Factory default reset appears to have worked. No reboots in 6 hours. Previously couldn't go 2 hours without a reboot.
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