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The Official AVS Dish DTVPal DVR Topic! - Page 501

post #15001 of 16891
11/14/12 at 8:03am
For what its worth...

http://www.avsforum.com/t/344797/roanoke-va-bluefield-wv-hdtv/5910#post_22587110
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post #15002 of 16891
11/14/12 at 8:14am
Quote:
Originally Posted by trp2525 View Post

I have some thoughts regarding the cessation of TVGOS by Rovi and its impact on our DTVPal DVRs. While I am disappointed that we all will be losing TVGOS data by next April, I feel that we will still have a very functional product even though it will only have PSIP data available for the program guide/program descriptions.
I'm not sure if I'm the typical purchaser of the DTVPal DVR, but I purchased my two units to replace two VHS VCRs. The main reason I purchased them was that I wanted the ability to be able to record OTA in high definition. Well not only did I get that ability with the DVR but I also got the ability to record two programs at once and watch a third recorded program at the same time. The fact that it had ANY program guide was an added bonus. I am fortunate enough to be in an area with TVGOS so I have had the full 7-day program guide since I have owned my two DVRs.
Regarding the economics/financial side of my purchases I really feel that I have gotten my money's worth (and continue to do so today). I purchased my two DVRs at the "pre-release" price of $250 before they went to the full $300 retail price when Sears started selling them in the late summer of 2009. That $250 purchase price was much less than the prices I had paid for the two Super VHS VCRs that the DVRs were replacing. My oldest DVR will be 4 years old next month so that averages out to just $5.21/month thus far and the unit continues to function to meet my needs.
We should be thankful that Dish brought this DVR to our niche OTA market in the first place at such an attractive price point. I don't think any other manufacturer would have done this if Dish hadn't. (Sony did have the DHG-HDD units but they only had a single tuner, required TVGOS to be fully functional and were priced significantly higher in the $800 to $1,000 price range because of their higher build quality.) Till this day I don't really understand Dish's reason for doing it other than to possibly get their OTA equipment in our homes and hope that we would then become Dish subscribers when we craved for more programming than OTA could supply.
The bottom line is that I feel the TVGOS has been a bonus for me for the last four years. Luckily Dish had the foresight to make this unit functional in the absence of TVGOS so that it would not become obsolete in its absence. For me the remaining functionality of my DTVPal DVRs after TVGOS disappears will suit my needs just fine and will still be light years ahead of the VCRs that they replaced. I also have two DVRs that don't report my viewing habits/preferences to any "mother ship" like other subscription products do and I can enjoy 39 OTA channels/sub-channels with absolutely no recurring monthly fees.
Just my 2 cents on the subject.....

+1 got my 2 at pre release price still working and compared to the $1100 I paid for my first VCR in 1980 the PAL is a gem.
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post #15003 of 16891
11/14/12 at 8:41am
Quote:
Originally Posted by keyboard21 View Post

Does it matter if it is right away or 5 months from now? Still hurts no matter when it is done

Nope,,....,screwed is screwed. mad.gifmad.gifmad.gif No honor among'st thieves.
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post #15004 of 16891
11/14/12 at 8:42am
+1 more (I got mine at the closeout price of $150.00 plus a two hour drive - wish I had bought two)

(I'm late - Need to move this one up one post)
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post #15005 of 16891
11/14/12 at 9:03am
Quote:
Originally Posted by tmn1 View Post

I have no preconceived idea how anything will work with Rovi. I only would like to hear from them what they need and then we can see what is possible. I have seen two weeks worth of complaining here and think that will get us nowhere. If there is a chance to save TVGOS it has to be done quickly, thus my suggestion of someone visiting their headquarters. It is a long shot but if we do nothing we will get nothing. Pretty simple. Thanks for your efforts.
Tom wink.gif

I sent them an email, without any expectations of a response.

"Don't, as others, expect any response, but sad to see ya go....Any plans on a subscription-based service? Can ya team-up with dish to enable this via the net? PSIP here really doesn't cut it."

Waste of bits ...I assume.
mad.gif
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post #15006 of 16891
11/14/12 at 9:31am
Quote:
Originally Posted by tmn1 View Post

I have no preconceived idea how anything will work with Rovi. I only would like to hear from them what they need and then we can see what is possible. I have seen two weeks worth of complaining here and think that will get us nowhere. If there is a chance to save TVGOS it has to be done quickly, thus my suggestion of someone visiting their headquarters. It is a long shot but if we do nothing we will get nothing. Pretty simple. Thanks for your efforts.
Tom wink.gif

I agree with the consensus option that it is probably too little too late. An angry mob of protesters, even accompanied by an estranged former governor, would make for good media coverage, but probably not enough to change Rovi’s corporate mind. Despite that reality, I do support the idea of someone visiting Rovi and attempting to get some answers as well as understand possible viable technical alternatives. For what it is worth, I plan on emailing Rovi as well and encourage others to do the same. If nothing else, they need to understand the impact of their decision.

Besides my DTVPAL, I also have a Mitsubishi HDTV that uses TVGOS. I imagine there are a number of TV models out there that also use TVGOS for their OTA guide. So it is not just our DTVPAL club users that will be SOL.
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post #15007 of 16891
11/14/12 at 10:15am
TVGOS is gone.
Clock is now off.
PSIP guide is ok to see what is on presently + a few hours but that's about it for most channels.

Still trying to understand why I can't pick up TVGOS from CTV in Toronto. I receive the channel perfectly.

Got my moneys worth out of this device so I won't feel too bad moving it to the spare room once it is replaced with something that works better.
Keeping my eyes open for a deal on TIVO with lifetime subscription.
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post #15008 of 16891
11/14/12 at 11:05am
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1HD_addict View Post

TVGOS is gone.
Clock is now off....

How far off is your clock now that you have lost TVGOS? I assume that you have firmware version F208 installed? If so, you might need to do a restore to factory defaults to get the time reset to the "weighted mean" of the PSIP times in your area.
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post #15009 of 16891
11/14/12 at 11:57am
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1HD_addict View Post

TVGOS is gone.
Clock is now off.
PSIP guide is ok to see what is on presently + a few hours but that's about it for most channels.
Still trying to understand why I can't pick up TVGOS from CTV in Toronto. I receive the channel perfectly.
Got my moneys worth out of this device so I won't feel too bad moving it to the spare room once it is replaced with something that works better.
Keeping my eyes open for a deal on TIVO with lifetime subscription.
I also would sugest a factory default and maybe try changing zip to the place that has tvguide.

What state you in?
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post #15010 of 16891
11/14/12 at 5:15pm

Given the nature of our (ever more so) orphaned DVRs, combined with the existence of alternative (and free) firmware for other CE devices like network routers, this would seem like the strongest argument yet to pressure Dish to release the DVR's source code or at least turn a blind eye should "someone" develop, reverse engineer, or otherwise produce a new firmware that can access guide info via the ethernet connection already present on our DTVPal DVRs.

 

Maybe the best targets for activism are the folks at Dish (correction: EchoStar's UK division in Eldon, as noted below)--or to prod our legislators to pass rules to limit the scope of protections afforded current products once they're out of production and no longer supported, even by the original manufacturer.
 


Edited by BargainHunter - 11/14/12 at 8:23pm
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post #15011 of 16891
11/14/12 at 5:55pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by BargainHunter View Post

Maybe the best targets for activism are the folks at Dish
Dish didn't make this box, EchoStar did.
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post #15012 of 16891
11/14/12 at 6:32pm
Not just echostar, but UK division in Eldon.
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post #15013 of 16891
11/14/12 at 8:06pm

Corporate identity corrections appreciated, but properly directed, the basic suggestion remains the same.

 

I dislike the changes before us as much as anyone, but don't hold much hope for keeping (or reverting to) things the way they have been. IMO we need to figure out how to move forward with a business model that serves needs on a scale worthwhile to both provider(s) and users.

 

What user here wouldn't mind contributing a few bucks occasionally for firmware updates that solved these well documented shortcomings? Would a talented individual with the ability to code firmware find it worthwhile to collect a few bucks from these users? Maybe. Maybe not, but probably a better chance of that than "putting things back the way they were/are".
 

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post #15014 of 16891
11/14/12 at 8:45pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by keyboard21 View Post

I also would sugest a factory default and maybe try changing zip to the place that has tvguide.
What state you in?

In NY near Buffalo
Have done several resets to factory default since TVGOS got yanked.
Changed zip to one closer to the Canadian border.
Just did another reset and set zip to 00000.

No difference - doesn't see TVGOS data on channel 9 (CTV from Toronto). As far as I know they are still transmitting per a poster who has a Sony DVR.
Also - my clock is around 1 minute slow and I have F208.
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post #15015 of 16891
11/14/12 at 9:03pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by BargainHunter View Post

Corporate identity corrections appreciated, but properly directed, the basic suggestion remains the same.

I dislike the changes before us as much as anyone, but don't hold much hope for keeping (or reverting to) things the way they have been. IMO we need to figure out how to move forward with a business model that serves needs on a scale worthwhile to both provider(s) and users.

What user here wouldn't mind contributing a few bucks occasionally for firmware updates that solved these well documented shortcomings? Would a talented individual with the ability to code firmware find it worthwhile to collect a few bucks from these users? Maybe. Maybe not, but probably a better chance of that than "putting things back the way they were/are".
If you follow the long thread, you probably knew what was my grasp of the similar approach to squash bugs, adding new feature, etc
Perhaps workout for TVGOS replacement.
I'm long proponent of such process: give it to Open Source, we will work on it (at least I'm interesting and willing make it better).
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post #15016 of 16891
11/14/12 at 9:15pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1HD_addict View Post

.....Also - my clock is around 1 minute slow and I have F208.

If your clock remains stable at 1 minute slow you can compensate for that by going to Menu then Setup then DVR Default Options (Menu then 3 then 5) and setting your "Start Early" time to 1 minute.
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post #15017 of 16891
11/14/12 at 9:59pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by P Smith View Post


If you follow the long thread, you probably knew what was my grasp of the similar approach to squash bugs, adding new feature, etc
Perhaps workout for TVGOS replacement.
I'm long proponent of such process: give it to Open Source, we will work on it (at least I'm interesting and willing make it better).

As an owner of 2 DTVPal DVRs (plus a Sony TV that's TVGOS-only), yes I've followed this thread from the beginning (and added a few cents worth of comments on rare occasions). I "know you" only from what you've contributed throughout this entire thread, but consider you the best informed candidate to lead the task.

 

As a "not that old" IT guy with a few decades in the field (my first computer was an industrial process and control mainframe and standalone PCs for business were a luxury), I'd be extremely happy to see the source code become Open Source supported. The need grows greater as each new development comes along, regardless whether it's new tech like bigger drives or further abandonment like the loss of TVGOS for this orphaned but still highly functional DVR.

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post #15018 of 16891
11/15/12 at 5:39am
Quote:
Originally Posted by trp2525 View Post

If your clock remains stable at 1 minute slow you can compensate for that by going to Menu then Setup then DVR Default Options (Menu then 3 then 5) and setting your "Start Early" time to 1 minute.
Yea, I thought about trying that but I foresee problems with skipped recordings because it would need 3 tuners to start early under certain scenarios.
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post #15019 of 16891
11/15/12 at 7:54am
There is nothing wrong with contacting the stations that have a clock error of more that say, a minute, and asking them to reset the PSIP clock. One local station's clock had been drifting since the DTV conversion. It was 6 minutes off. I emailed the station's engineer and it was fixed the next day.
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post #15020 of 16891
11/15/12 at 9:59am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pete-N2 View Post

There is nothing wrong with contacting the stations that have a clock error of more that say, a minute, and asking them to reset the PSIP clock.
Just don't get too optimistic: I'd guess that about 10% of the time they'll fix their clock, another 30% of the time they'll give you a glib thank-you and do nothing, and about 60% of the time they'll tell you to mind your own business or they'll clean your clock.
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post #15021 of 16891
11/15/12 at 10:58am
I guess the response might have something to do with the part of the country you live in and -- how you make the request. In that case I'd call the GM (voice mail is great) make the request, explain what problems the clock is causing and ask if there is any technical reason why the request can't be met.

All the pc's in the country go out to the internet and update the system clock on a regular basis but for some reason a lot of PSIP computers seem to have a problem doing this. I really don't undersand why. It seems to me that it should be a no brainer)
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post #15022 of 16891
11/15/12 at 2:58pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pete-N2 View Post

I guess the response might have something to do with the part of the country you live in and -- how you make the request. In that case I'd call the GM (voice mail is great) make the request, explain what problems the clock is causing and ask if there is any technical reason why the request can't be met.
All the pc's in the country go out to the internet and update the system clock on a regular basis but for some reason a lot of PSIP computers seem to have a problem doing this. I really don't undersand why. It seems to me that it should be a no brainer)
they just don't know how set the sync time for each hour frown.gif
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post #15023 of 16891
11/15/12 at 5:03pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul210 View Post

I think WKRC in Cincinnati is still providing TVGoS. I just checked and I have a full 7 days of guide data.
Interesting. I have indications that TVGOS is setting the time but no EPG. I will try a reset.
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post #15024 of 16891
11/15/12 at 5:08pm
KCBS2 is still providing TVGOS data for my DTV Pal DVR. I did e-mail KCBS station about how long they will have their feeds a few days ago, but so far no replies. frown.gif
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post #15025 of 16891
11/15/12 at 6:08pm
Quote:
In NY near Buffalo
Have done several resets to factory default since TVGOS got yanked.
Changed zip to one closer to the Canadian border.
Just did another reset and set zip to 00000.

No difference - doesn't see TVGOS data on channel 9 (CTV from Toronto). As far as I know they are still transmitting per a poster who has a Sony DVR.
Also - my clock is around 1 minute slow and I have F208.

1HD_addict, a guy I know in our area who has a TVGOS-enabled HDTV and got TVGOS back by switching his TV from a US Zip Code to a Canadian Postal Code, but you can't do that with the DTVpal so we are out of luck. eek.gif

For what it's worth, my clock is only a few seconds out and I imagine we receive most of the same stations.
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post #15026 of 16891
11/15/12 at 8:13pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by BargainHunter View Post

As an owner of 2 DTVPal DVRs (plus a Sony TV that's TVGOS-only), yes I've followed this thread from the beginning (and added a few cents worth of comments on rare occasions). I "know you" only from what you've contributed throughout this entire thread, but consider you the best informed candidate to lead the task.

As a "not that old" IT guy with a few decades in the field (my first computer was an industrial process and control mainframe and standalone PCs for business were a luxury), I'd be extremely happy to see the source code become Open Source supported. The need grows greater as each new development comes along, regardless whether it's new tech like bigger drives or further abandonment like the loss of TVGOS for this orphaned but still highly functional DVR.

If the source code was opened and someone made an update that made improvements. I would donate to have that.
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post #15027 of 16891
11/15/12 at 9:16pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by keyboard21 View Post

If the source code was opened and someone made an update that made improvements. I would donate to have that.

Most likely they don't own all the code that went into it. It's fairly common with modern technological devices that substantial portions of the code they run is licensed from elsewhere, and they can't release the source to that stuff. So, sure, they could release what they wrote, but still you'd have half a codebase, and the missing stuff would have to be replaced from whole cloth, or something would have to be hacked to fill the gap. You really want half a DVR? At that point, why not just build a mini ITX box, load it with your DVR platform and software of choice, and skip the pain of rebuilding half a platform?
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post #15028 of 16891
11/15/12 at 9:40pm
This was posted on another thread (TVGOS) by a poster named donottosmeok. You can thank him. I thought you guys would want to see what Rovi stated on their Facebook page. So I brought it over in case you guys missed it. How does Cable Tv using encrypt affect OTA? Is this just one big excuse?

http://www.facebook.com/RoviCorp?ref=stream#


"RoviCorp's fb page pretty much says it all: "I’m sorry to hear this issue is affecting you. To deliver the data broadcast service in the past, Rovi worked with over-the-air traditional broadcast data service providers. Our agreements with these service providers are ending as a result of the market change to digital data services delivered through the Internet. In addition, cable television systems are beginning to encrypt their signal, which will disrupt the transmission of data through these broadcast services. The guides in Internet-connected TVs are not affected by this change. Again, our apologies for the inconvenience this has caused."

Please post a comment for them and ask all your friends to. Maybe if enough complain? Remember be polite.
Edited by keyboard21 - 11/15/12 at 9:56pm
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post #15029 of 16891
11/16/12 at 3:57am
Quote:
Originally Posted by keyboard21 View Post

How does Cable Tv using encrypt affect OTA? Is this just one big excuse?
Obviously, it doesn't. But a big part of Rovi's business involved supplying inserters for cable system head-ends in addition to OTA stations. The cable companys' gradual switch to SDV was going to make many TVGOS devices incompatible with cable signals, which meant the market for the TVGOS guide would shrink to OTA viewers (like us) only - too small a market for them to continue to support the OTA inserters (which were constantly breaking down and/or causing issues for the broadcasters because of firmware bugs.) I'm not making excuses for Rovi, just trying to explain their economic incentive to kill RF-delivered guides.
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post #15030 of 16891
11/16/12 at 8:07am
I'm thinking ROVI missed or just not willing make one simple logical step into current technology: switch from decentralize distribution ie install separate box in each station to curremt technics: centralized Internet service with a couple tiers: limited free (say a few days) to payable for 2 or more weeks.
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