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The Official AVS Dish DTVPal DVR Topic! - Page 520

post #15571 of 18096
Are we sure that reformatting the HDD would cure the problem of the two stuck/bad recordings?
post #15572 of 18096
reformatting will kill all your recordings
post #15573 of 18096
Changing the subject just a bit. I slipped with my fingers and brain the other night and deleted a recording I wanted to view. Is it gone for good or is there a way to see what has been deleted and bring it back like you can with PCs?
post #15574 of 18096
Good luck, LenL.  That's why one has to pay attention to the confirmation question and not always answer Yes to it out of unthinking kinesthetic habit.
post #15575 of 18096
There is no provision for sort of Trash Can & Recovery; file system immediately releases data clusters of the deleted file and current buffering process usually allocate the cluster pretty quickly; adding to that wiping intermediate pointers to the data clusters what make impossible recovery process.
In best case, if you remove the drive for analysis right after you delete your event, you could see marked "deleted"row in catalog and a record in directory with some info include first link to pointers to data clusters.
post #15576 of 18096
One would assume that the recorded program is still there, although as P Smith said, once the filesystem marks that area of the HDD as free space, it can be overwritten at any time. Although programs exist for computers to detect and restore deleted files, since the DTVPal's HDD is unreadable by PC software, there is no way to recover deleted files on it, even if they haven't been overwritten yet.
post #15577 of 18096
May be I omitted one bit of info (what would put in grave your hope to restore events, even if no recording happened) - the sectors with a list of pointers [100] to data clusters cleaned each time when you delete event(s).
That means: no way to find all scattered clusters in proper order to recover your accidentally deleted file. Please, be sure I'm telling you the details of functioning not by analogy, but from my own real research.
post #15578 of 18096
Quote:
Originally Posted by CO_Bear View Post

Are we sure that reformatting the HDD would cure the problem of the two stuck/bad recordings?

Before reformatting, have you tried ...

Go to "My Recordings" - select, "Edit" - select the problem recordings and then - select, "Delete". I'd give it a shot before loosing everything.
post #15579 of 18096
Quote:
Originally Posted by P Smith View Post

May be I omitted one bit of info (what would put in grave your hope to restore events, even if no recording happened) - the sectors with a list of pointers [100] to data clusters cleaned each time when you delete event(s).
That means: no way to find all scattered clusters in proper order to recover your accidentally deleted file. Please, be sure I'm telling you the details of functioning not by analogy, but from my own real research.

Thanks P Smith and everyone who replied. I will be more careful but mistakes do happen. It would have been a nice feature to allow one to recover from this kind of mistake. I guess all DVRS will behave this way unlike a PC where you still have a chance to get to deleted files.
post #15580 of 18096
Well, it's just one of many functions of OS; it would be not that comprehensive to implement it, as we saw recently: dish added TrashCan & Restore to its big fat DVR - Hopper.
post #15581 of 18096
Quote:
Originally Posted by LenL View Post

Thanks P Smith and everyone who replied. I will be more careful but mistakes do happen. It would have been a nice feature to allow one to recover from this kind of mistake. I guess all DVRS will behave this way unlike a PC where you still have a chance to get to deleted files.
The Fios DVR lets you restore deleted files
post #15582 of 18096
Quote:
Originally Posted by keyboard21 View Post

The Fios DVR lets you restore deleted files
So does the TiVo Premier.
post #15583 of 18096
Quote:
Originally Posted by mabuttra View Post

So does the TiVo Premier.
The DTV pal could of been so much more.
post #15584 of 18096
Quote:
Originally Posted by ed_in_tx View Post

Or, depending on the hookup cable, I've seen some RG-59 type cables that have a very tiny gauge center conductor. Maybe the center contacts in the ANT connector on the DVR don't fit snugly to the center conductor of the cable making an intermittent connection when you move it.

Very possible, I'm trying different cables now, as my CM-7000 PAL is doing it again. Last night while I was watching Kimmel all of a sudden signal strength just dropped to zero on all channels. Tried overnight letting it sit, and now doing the disconnect-reconnect antenna lead trick.

The very first time this happened was over the summer. We had a power failure and I stupidly had my Channel Master plugged directly into the wall, I had just moved here and hadn't had a chance yet to get all my stuff situated. When the power came back on, that was the first time it did this, it couldn't find any channels. I've always managed to get the channels back, but it's doing this routine more and more frequently now. So, very, very sad.

Got it at Fry's Dec. 2011, unboxed, discounted at $180, the last one they had in the building. So, it has served it's purpose, no cable for 12 months has saved me $800ish for my $180 investment. May have to spring for a new Channel Master, though, maybe wait a bit for the price to come down as $300 doesn't work for me. I'm not sure broadcast TV is worth $300. I mean it's nice, but not $300 nice!
post #15585 of 18096
Quote:
Originally Posted by P Smith View Post

Well, it's just one of many functions of OS; it would be not that comprehensive to implement it, as we saw recently: dish added TrashCan & Restore to its big fat DVR - Hopper.
Interesting Dish added that. I inadvertently dumped all my saved movies and programs in my Dish Vip722 thinking I was just deleting a selected group of recordings. Nope got 'em all. Wish they had a restore in that model. Also have a bunch of saved recordings on my old DTVPal HDD that I can't get to because it got corrupted and says so with a message on screen, all it will do. So I learned not to expect any long term storage of programs in these DVRs. (Unlike 30+ year old videotapes that still play fine.)
post #15586 of 18096
Quote:
Originally Posted by keyboard21 View Post

The DTV pal could of been so much more.
And as a result, cost so much more.
post #15587 of 18096
Quote:
Originally Posted by ed_in_tx View Post

Interesting Dish added that. I inadvertently dumped all my saved movies and programs in my Dish Vip722 thinking I was just deleting a selected group of recordings. Nope got 'em all. Wish they had a restore in that model. Also have a bunch of saved recordings on my old DTVPal HDD that I can't get to because it got corrupted and says so with a message on screen, all it will do. So I learned not to expect any long term storage of programs in these DVRs. (Unlike 30+ year old videotapes that still play fine.)
I would be glad to help you recover your events from Pal DVR's drive (if it recoverable).
post #15588 of 18096
Quote:
Originally Posted by mabuttra View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by keyboard21 View Post

The Fios DVR lets you restore deleted files
So does the TiVo Premier.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kelson View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by keyboard21 View Post

The DTV pal could of [sic] been so much more.
And as a result, cost so much more.

Deleted file recovery is a pretty simple and inexpensive feature to implement. I'm surprised we're just now seeing it in a few DVRs. So far I count the Dish Hopper, Fios's DVR, TiVo of course (all three are subscription DVRs), and presumably HTPCs (a side effect of PC OS's having had trashcan features for decades).

My guess is, it's a feature folks don't even think about until they need it, and the word is just now getting back to the DVR sellers, so they're just now starting to include it in their products.
post #15589 of 18096
Quote:
Originally Posted by P Smith View Post

I would be glad to help you recover your events from Pal DVR's drive (if it recoverable).
Thanks for the offer. If I decide to pursue it I will PM you. Not sure it would be worthwhile. You probably remember this picture I posted back when it happened. Nothing I tried via the PAL's menu would restore it.

525x525px-LL-d229cb09_vbattach218743.jpeg
post #15590 of 18096
Quote:
Originally Posted by ed_in_tx View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by P Smith View Post

Well, it's just one of many functions of OS; it would be not that comprehensive to implement it, as we saw recently: dish added TrashCan & Restore to its big fat DVR - Hopper.
Interesting Dish added that. I inadvertently dumped all my saved movies and programs in my Dish Vip722 thinking I was just deleting a selected group of recordings. Nope got 'em all. Wish they had a restore in that model. Also have a bunch of saved recordings on my old DTVPal HDD that I can't get to because it got corrupted and says so with a message on screen, all it will do. So I learned not to expect any long term storage of programs in these DVRs. (Unlike 30+ year old videotapes that still play fine.)
Yes I've learned that the hard way a couple of times myself. If you want a recording to last, you need it on tape or DVD.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JHBrandt View Post

Has anyone ever lost all their recordings when deleting a single recording? This has happened to my wife twice. She likes to watch & delete, but yesterday when she watched a show & deleted it, everything got deleted except for one recording. mad.gif

This also happened a few months ago. At that time I just changed my timers to protect my recordings, figuring she just hadn't been paying attention and had deleted my recordings by mistake. But then it happened again yesterday, wiping out protected (mine + some of hers) & unprotected recordings alike.

I know she didn't get into the diagnostics and reformat the drive because there was still one of her recordings left (which she then watched & deleted).

Anyway, I decided to turn lemons into lemonade. Since the drive was now empty, I swapped out the factory 250GB drive with a WD 750GB drive. Over 106 hours of HD recording time now, provided they don't all get deleted again rolleyes.gif
post #15591 of 18096
Quote:
Originally Posted by JHBrandt View Post

Deleted file recovery is a pretty simple and inexpensive feature to implement. I'm surprised we're just now seeing it in a few DVRs. So far I count the Dish Hopper, Fios's DVR, TiVo of course (all three are subscription DVRs), and presumably HTPCs (a side effect of PC OS's having had trashcan features for decades).
My guess is, it's a feature folks don't even think about until they need it, and the word is just now getting back to the DVR sellers, so they're just now starting to include it in their products.

No, it is not a simple feature to implement. It requires the development and implementation of a very robust file system in the DVR because once the "trashcan" is implemented the DVR will be operating in a perpetual "disk-full" condition. Once a TiVo has been recording a while, its HDD fills and stays filled. Deleted programs are simply relisted in the "Deleted" folder. As new events are recorded, space is recovered from items in the Deleted folder as needed. This requires a robust file system that is capable of defragmenting itself continuously on the fly in a near-full condition. The Pal DVR's file system is probably not capable of this.

Just because we can push a button on the remote and make something happen doesn't mean it was cheap and easy to implement. Software R&D costs are chronically underestimated.
post #15592 of 18096
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kelson View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by JHBrandt View Post

Deleted file recovery is a pretty simple and inexpensive feature to implement. I'm surprised we're just now seeing it in a few DVRs. So far I count the Dish Hopper, Fios's DVR, TiVo of course (all three are subscription DVRs), and presumably HTPCs (a side effect of PC OS's having had trashcan features for decades).
My guess is, it's a feature folks don't even think about until they need it, and the word is just now getting back to the DVR sellers, so they're just now starting to include it in their products.

No, it is not a simple feature to implement. It requires the development and implementation of a very robust file system in the DVR because once the "trashcan" is implemented the DVR will be operating in a perpetual "disk-full" condition. Once a TiVo has been recording a while, its HDD fills and stays filled. Deleted programs are simply relisted in the "Deleted" folder. As new events are recorded, space is recovered from items in the Deleted folder as needed. This requires a robust file system that is capable of defragmenting itself continuously on the fly in a near-full condition. The Pal DVR's file system is probably not capable of this.

Just because we can push a button on the remote and make something happen doesn't mean it was cheap and easy to implement. Software R&D costs are chronically underestimated.

[Emphasis added.] Your opinion is noted but I respectfully disagree. I'm a software developer myself and I'm quite familiar with how "trashcans" work. I've even implemented one myself.

You are correct that once the disk fills up, space is recovered by deleting files from the "trashcan" as needed. But that requires neither a particularly "robust" file system nor continuous defragmentation. It was implemented on the old DOS FAT file system by several 3rd-party vendors even before Microsoft got in on the action with Windows 95. I'm not sure if you'd consider FAT "very robust," but it was certainly not designed with a trashcan feature in mind.

P Smith probably knows the most of any of us about the Pal's file system and whether it could've supported a "trashcan" (although I'd note that, if you never delete anything from the Pal, eventually it will begin deleting unprotected files to make more space, exactly as it would if a trashcan existed), but my point was more general: that I found it somewhat surprising that more DVRs don't have it.
post #15593 of 18096
[Dreaming]
If the company (echo) would release TR-50 source code and IDE to public (with reduction of sensitive part related to smart card and pay service);
we could open a project on kickstart to collect money for bug squashing and enhancements like trash bin ...
Then I'm damn sure I would make such feature for the DVR implemented.
[/Dreaming]
post #15594 of 18096
Quote:
Originally Posted by P Smith View Post

[Dreaming]
If the company (echo) would release TR-50 source code and IDE to public (with reduction of sensitive part related to smart card and pay service);
we could open a project on kickstart to collect money for bug squashing and enhancements like trash bin ...
Then I'm damn sure I would make such feature for the DVR implemented.
[/Dreaming]
That will never happen. Even if someone did find a way to crack it, lawsuits (DMCA) would come!

Has Dish ever even opensource/release ANYTHING for the public to tamper with?
post #15595 of 18096
Nope. We should say thanks to that guy who will spend millions for lawsuits instead of giving something for public interest ...
post #15596 of 18096
Only a fools masquerading as a business men give away their active IP.
post #15597 of 18096
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kelson View Post

Only a fools masquerading as a business men give away their active IP.
You are something ... not the company, but there was occasions when companies gave up source code - Google, Sun, etc. Not telling ACTIVE code like the dead TR-50.
post #15598 of 18096
Has anyone found a good 1TB drive lately that works with the Pal DVR? I went down the list in post number 1 and it appears all of the 1TB drives are no longer available new. Not sure I want to buy a refurbished one.
post #15599 of 18096
Quote:
Originally Posted by James_in_Utah View Post

Has anyone found a good 1TB drive lately that works with the Pal DVR? I went down the list in post number 1 and it appears all of the 1TB drives are no longer available new. Not sure I want to buy a refurbished one.

There are still some new WD10EVDS drives available. They're rather expensive for 1TB, but that's the drive I bought to upgrade my Pal.
http://www.google.com/products/catalog?q=WD10EVDS&cid=4072145282711878028

Edit: This post - http://www.avsforum.com/t/1099071/the-official-avs-dish-dtvpal-dvr-topic/14320_20#post_22178208 - mentioned that a WD10EURS works as well. From a quick Google search, prices appear similar to the WD10EVDS. The EURS seems to be harder to find new, but I thought I'd mention it anyway.
Edited by JHBrandt - 1/14/13 at 11:17am
post #15600 of 18096
Quote:
Originally Posted by James_in_Utah View Post

Has anyone found a good 1TB drive lately that works with the Pal DVR? I went down the list in post number 1 and it appears all of the 1TB drives are no longer available new. Not sure I want to buy a refurbished one.
PosT#1 don't changing last years, so for latest HDD models try read the thread backwards form last post.

You'll find latest models what ppl using or not.
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