The Official AVS Dish DTVPal DVR Topic! - Page 520

Are we sure that reformatting the HDD would cure the problem of the two stuck/bad recordings?

reformatting will kill all your recordings

Changing the subject just a bit. I slipped with my fingers and brain the other night and deleted a recording I wanted to view. Is it gone for good or is there a way to see what has been deleted and bring it back like you can with PCs?

Good luck, LenL.  That's why one has to pay attention to the confirmation question and not always answer Yes to it out of unthinking kinesthetic habit.

There is no provision for sort of Trash Can & Recovery; file system immediately releases data clusters of the deleted file and current buffering process usually allocate the cluster pretty quickly; adding to that wiping intermediate pointers to the data clusters what make impossible recovery process.
In best case, if you remove the drive for analysis right after you delete your event, you could see marked "deleted"row in catalog and a record in directory with some info include first link to pointers to data clusters.

One would assume that the recorded program is still there, although as P Smith said, once the filesystem marks that area of the HDD as free space, it can be overwritten at any time. Although programs exist for computers to detect and restore deleted files, since the DTVPal's HDD is unreadable by PC software, there is no way to recover deleted files on it, even if they haven't been overwritten yet.

May be I omitted one bit of info (what would put in grave your hope to restore events, even if no recording happened) - the sectors with a list of pointers [100] to data clusters cleaned each time when you delete event(s).
That means: no way to find all scattered clusters in proper order to recover your accidentally deleted file. Please, be sure I'm telling you the details of functioning not by analogy, but from my own real research.

Before reformatting, have you tried ...

Go to "My Recordings" - select, "Edit" - select the problem recordings and then - select, "Delete". I'd give it a shot before loosing everything.

Thanks P Smith and everyone who replied. I will be more careful but mistakes do happen. It would have been a nice feature to allow one to recover from this kind of mistake. I guess all DVRS will behave this way unlike a PC where you still have a chance to get to deleted files.

Well, it's just one of many functions of OS; it would be not that comprehensive to implement it, as we saw recently: dish added TrashCan & Restore to its big fat DVR - Hopper.

The Fios DVR lets you restore deleted files

So does the TiVo Premier.

The DTV pal could of been so much more.

Very possible, I'm trying different cables now, as my CM-7000 PAL is doing it again. Last night while I was watching Kimmel all of a sudden signal strength just dropped to zero on all channels. Tried overnight letting it sit, and now doing the disconnect-reconnect antenna lead trick.

The very first time this happened was over the summer. We had a power failure and I stupidly had my Channel Master plugged directly into the wall, I had just moved here and hadn't had a chance yet to get all my stuff situated. When the power came back on, that was the first time it did this, it couldn't find any channels. I've always managed to get the channels back, but it's doing this routine more and more frequently now. So, very, very sad.

Got it at Fry's Dec. 2011, unboxed, discounted at $180, the last one they had in the building. So, it has served it's purpose, no cable for 12 months has saved me $800ish for my $180 investment. May have to spring for a new Channel Master, though, maybe wait a bit for the price to come down as $300 doesn't work for me. I'm not sure broadcast TV is worth $300. I mean it's nice, but not $300 nice!

Interesting Dish added that. I inadvertently dumped all my saved movies and programs in my Dish Vip722 thinking I was just deleting a selected group of recordings. Nope got 'em all. Wish they had a restore in that model. Also have a bunch of saved recordings on my old DTVPal HDD that I can't get to because it got corrupted and says so with a message on screen, all it will do. So I learned not to expect any long term storage of programs in these DVRs. (Unlike 30+ year old videotapes that still play fine.)

And as a result, cost so much more.

I would be glad to help you recover your events from Pal DVR's drive (if it recoverable).

Deleted file recovery is a pretty simple and inexpensive feature to implement. I'm surprised we're just now seeing it in a few DVRs. So far I count the Dish Hopper, Fios's DVR, TiVo of course (all three are subscription DVRs), and presumably HTPCs (a side effect of PC OS's having had trashcan features for decades).

My guess is, it's a feature folks don't even think about until they need it, and the word is just now getting back to the DVR sellers, so they're just now starting to include it in their products.

Thanks for the offer. If I decide to pursue it I will PM you. Not sure it would be worthwhile. You probably remember this picture I posted back when it happened. Nothing I tried via the PAL's menu would restore it.

Yes I've learned that the hard way a couple of times myself. If you want a recording to last, you need it on tape or DVD.

No, it is not a simple feature to implement. It requires the development and implementation of a very robust file system in the DVR because once the "trashcan" is implemented the DVR will be operating in a perpetual "disk-full" condition. Once a TiVo has been recording a while, its HDD fills and stays filled. Deleted programs are simply relisted in the "Deleted" folder. As new events are recorded, space is recovered from items in the Deleted folder as needed. This requires a robust file system that is capable of defragmenting itself continuously on the fly in a near-full condition. The Pal DVR's file system is probably not capable of this.

Just because we can push a button on the remote and make something happen doesn't mean it was cheap and easy to implement. Software R&D costs are chronically underestimated.

[Emphasis added.] Your opinion is noted but I respectfully disagree. I'm a software developer myself and I'm quite familiar with how "trashcans" work. I've even implemented one myself.

You are correct that once the disk fills up, space is recovered by deleting files from the "trashcan" as needed. But that requires neither a particularly "robust" file system nor continuous defragmentation. It was implemented on the old DOS FAT file system by several 3rd-party vendors even before Microsoft got in on the action with Windows 95. I'm not sure if you'd consider FAT "very robust," but it was certainly not designed with a trashcan feature in mind.

P Smith probably knows the most of any of us about the Pal's file system and whether it could've supported a "trashcan" (although I'd note that, if you never delete anything from the Pal, eventually it will begin deleting unprotected files to make more space, exactly as it would if a trashcan existed), but my point was more general: that I found it somewhat surprising that more DVRs don't have it.

[Dreaming]
If the company (echo) would release TR-50 source code and IDE to public (with reduction of sensitive part related to smart card and pay service);
we could open a project on kickstart to collect money for bug squashing and enhancements like trash bin ...
Then I'm damn sure I would make such feature for the DVR implemented.
[/Dreaming]

That will never happen. Even if someone did find a way to crack it, lawsuits (DMCA) would come!

Has Dish ever even opensource/release ANYTHING for the public to tamper with?

Nope. We should say thanks to that guy who will spend millions for lawsuits instead of giving something for public interest ...

Only a fools masquerading as a business men give away their active IP.

You are something ... not the company, but there was occasions when companies gave up source code - Google, Sun, etc. Not telling ACTIVE code like the dead TR-50.

Has anyone found a good 1TB drive lately that works with the Pal DVR? I went down the list in post number 1 and it appears all of the 1TB drives are no longer available new. Not sure I want to buy a refurbished one.

There are still some new WD10EVDS drives available. They're rather expensive for 1TB, but that's the drive I bought to upgrade my Pal.
http://www.google.com/products/catalog?q=WD10EVDS&cid=4072145282711878028

Edit: This post - http://www.avsforum.com/t/1099071/the-official-avs-dish-dtvpal-dvr-topic/14320_20#post_22178208 - mentioned that a WD10EURS works as well. From a quick Google search, prices appear similar to the WD10EVDS. The EURS seems to be harder to find new, but I thought I'd mention it anyway.
Edited by JHBrandt - 1/14/13 at 11:17am

PosT#1 don't changing last years, so for latest HDD models try read the thread backwards form last post.

You'll find latest models what ppl using or not.