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The Official AVS Dish DTVPal DVR Topic! - Page 524

post #15691 of 18096
Same scenario this AM. Except for those stations that are going out over 12 hours, there was "no information available" across the grid. A quick cycle through all channels populated the missing data. I'm a little hesitant to try JHBrandt's suggestions because the clock is workable and I don't want to end up in a worse situation than I am now.
post #15692 of 18096
Quote:
Originally Posted by golinux View Post


Same scenario this AM. Except for those stations that are going out over 12 hours, there was "no information available" across the grid. A quick cycle through all channels populated the missing data. I'm a little hesitant to try JHBrandt's suggestions because the clock is workable and I don't want to end up in a worse situation than I am now.

All my stations have at least 12 hours of PSIP data. When I turned on my DTVPal a few minutes ago, and brought up the guide, the grid is completely filled out to midnight tonight (some stations have data beyond that). Mine definitely does channel scans when it is turned off.

Mark
post #15693 of 18096
It seems like lots of markets have stopped getting TVGOS recently. Milwaukee TVGOS data ends at 4:00 AM Tuesday. I forced a reboot due to an unresponsive DVR, and the TVGOS logo still reappeared, along with data till Tuesday. I wonder whether that means the local TVGOS provider is still running the equipment, but Rovi stopped sending the guide data?
post #15694 of 18096
Something is amiss here.  Two oif the three Univisión-owned channels (WXFT-SD and WGBO) have PSIP guide info on our televisions but the DTVPal DVR has nothing for them but the one-hour blocks of "No Information," even after I tune to those stations.  (WXFT-HD has guide info on the DVR.)
post #15695 of 18096
Quote:
Originally Posted by Will in MKE View Post

It seems like lots of markets have stopped getting TVGOS recently. Milwaukee TVGOS data ends at 4:00 AM Tuesday. I forced a reboot due to an unresponsive DVR, and the TVGOS logo still reappeared, along with data till Tuesday. I wonder whether that means the local TVGOS provider is still running the equipment, but Rovi stopped sending the guide data?

A reboot of the DTVPal does not lose the TVGOS data that is in the Pal, although the TV Guide Logo, and the listings takes about 10 minutes to return. Only a factory default will erase the TVGOS data. So that is not an indication of whether the data is still being sent. Having data only until Tuesday, is an indication that the data has stopped in your area.

Mark
post #15696 of 18096
For what it is worth when I lost TVGOS several weeks ago the logo automatically disappeared and I did not have to do a reboot or reset to default.
post #15697 of 18096
Quote:
Originally Posted by WillN937 View Post

For what it is worth when I lost TVGOS several weeks ago the logo automatically disappeared and I did not have to do a reboot or reset to default.

The TV Guide logo will disappear a few days after TVGoS does. See if it lets you set the clock, though. Even after the Pal gives up on TVGoS for the guide, it often gets "stuck" trying to set the clock from the no-longer-existent TVGoS stream. It's been reported that the Pal's internal clock isn't very accurate, so if it's not syncing to PSIP data, your recordings will soon start & end at the wrong times.

But if it ain't broke (i.e., your Pal's clock is accurate and you're getting all your PSIP guide info without having to surf through all the channels first), there's no need to do anything to fix it.
post #15698 of 18096
Not having rebooted nor reset to factory defaults since TVGOS ended (just having done one soft reset with the power key on the remote), I've lost the TVGOS logo but the clock setting option is still grayed out and stated to come from TV Guide.  So far it's still within a minute of the right time, and my padding for Event Timers is set to two minutes on each end, so I'm not missing anything so far (except for signal dropouts, which aren't the unit's fault).
post #15699 of 18096
Quote:
Originally Posted by mabuttra View Post

A reboot of the DTVPal does not lose the TVGOS data that is in the Pal, although the TV Guide Logo, and the listings takes about 10 minutes to return. Only a factory default will erase the TVGOS data. So that is not an indication of whether the data is still being sent. Having data only until Tuesday, is an indication that the data has stopped in your area.

Mark
to add some techno: EPG data storing in a flash memory, not on a drive, so technically speaking these pages with EPG do require some specific action form FW.
post #15700 of 18096
A quick question . . .

I just checked and my clock is still locked. But the time has been reliable for several days now since TVGOS went away. Unfortunately, (as previously noted) the guide is only populating when I tune to individual channels. If I try to fix the grid problem what are the chances it will screwup the clock's stability?
post #15701 of 18096
Quote:
Originally Posted by P Smith View Post

perhaps the TVGOS outage do require restore to default, to tell the FW: "do scanning all channels by yourself, dude - don't use TVGOS!" smile.gif

I think you're right. Both of my DVRs exhibited this "blank until tuned" guide behavior as well as clocks that have gone from 70s fast to 90s fast over the past few days. So I decided to do a factory reset on one of them and compare results:

Reset DVR: Clock is now about 30s fast and has remained so for 3 days. Clock-Set menu option is now un-grayed-out (as expected). Guide shows all channels populated for the full 12 hours required of PSIP even when no channels have been actively tuned in over 12 hours. (The ABC affiliate shows guide data out 24 hours and the FOX affiliate goes out a full 48).

Un-Reset DVR: Clock now about 100s fast and when the DVR is first turned on after being un-used for at least 12 hours, all guide data will be blank except for whatever channel it was on when it was turned on. Subsequently tuning in each channel (even for only 1 second) will result in the PSIP data for that channel populating the guide.

So I went ahead and did a full reset on the other DVR and it has behaved the same as the first one. I'll go out on a limb and recommend that everyone do a full factory reset of their DVR after their local TVGOS well runs dry. That seems the safest way of ensuring that the flaky firmware retains no "memory" of the fact that it once lived in a TVGOS environment.
post #15702 of 18096

Channel Master suggests disabling the TVGuide. 

 

 

Quote:

The TV Guide function can be disabled in the CM7000PAL by using the following steps on the remote control:

Menu>Preferences>Guide Display, then select “TV Guide” with the left and right arrow keys, and press the Down arrow to change it to “Disabled”. 

Your CM7000PAL is now set to display available PSIP data.

post #15703 of 18096
Our Univisión station (which has no subchannels) WGBO and the SD subchannel of our Unimás channel WXFT have no PSIP guide info on the DTVPal DVR, though guide info for both comes in on the television's own tuner if I bypass the DVR.  Two other ATSC tuners in the house can get the guide for WXFT-SD but not for WGBO.

Tuning to the station itself doesn't make a difference for me.
post #15704 of 18096
Quote:
Originally Posted by dattier View Post

Our Univisión station (which has no subchannels) WGBO and the SD subchannel of our Unimás channel WXFT have no PSIP guide info on the DTVPal DVR, though guide info for both comes in on the television's own tuner if I bypass the DVR.  Two other ATSC tuners in the house can get the guide for WXFT-SD but not for WGBO.

Tuning to the station itself doesn't make a difference for me.

The problem with WGBO doesn't seem specific to the Pal. Could be something hinky with their PSIP. I suggest contacting WGBO and letting them know their guide is only working on one of your TVs but other stations work on all your TVs.

WXFT is more puzzling, though. I assume you just have the same program on different subchannels (one SD and ohe HD), but the Pal only shows guide info for the HD channel, while all your TVs show (identical) guide info for both channels.

I'd try deleting both subchannels of WXFT, rebooting, then adding them back to see if it makes a difference. If that doesn't help you may have to rerun the setup wizard or do a factory default reset (which reruns the setup wizard).
post #15705 of 18096
Quote:
Originally Posted by jrpastore View Post

I know I could do a factory reset and get this to un-lock but I'll hold off on doing this for a while . . .

Like you I was hesitant to do a factory reset. But a while ago, I was feeling adventurous and tried a few things. This should work for you too since we are in the same market. First I disabled TVGOS as TalkingRat described here. The clock was still grayed out. Then I changed the zip code to 00000. Clock still locked. Next I tried a soft (power button) reset. The 'loaded please wait' screen sat there forever and I thought maybe I had bricked the DVR. But finally it started to search for stations. The soft reset unlocked the clock in conjunction with the other two changes I made in the menu. And the clock is no longer 1 min fast. I guess I'll find out in the morning whether the 'no information available' behavior is fixed.
post #15706 of 18096
Did check of our KPIX station: TVGoS is there, after the 8 hrs session got numbers (time deviated from 0 to -2 sec diff):
Code:
TVGOS Tables/Packets Statistics:
IDs         tables   packets    bytes  known type
ID00:         211      1779       4853 [Empty]
ID26:         301      3853    1161634
ID66:          48      2800     162272 [LineupSelPkts]
ID67:         528      6800    1941616 [LineupPkts]
ID68:          16        16       7040 [DPP]
ID69:         672      6060    2568528 [ID70]
ID70:        1431     10029    5458353 [ID70]
ID71:        1278     10512    4906392 [ID70]
ID72:         177      1746     679533 [ID70]
ID73:          80       272     248176
ID74:          16        32      22304
ID75:          16        16       5136 [EPP]
ID77:         300       300      44400 [ZipcodePkts]
ID78:          16        16       2464 [TimezonePkts]
ID79:         100       300     123600 [HostSchedulePkts]
ID80:          27        51      46650
ID81:        1284     16475    5001733 {Sony FW}
ID85:          13       323      52156 [ID27]
ID86:          51       219     205011 {Ads}
ID87:         126       126      49077 [ID97]
ID88:           3         3        141 [ID97]
ID89:        2329      7832    7247522 [ID97: ImageFrag]
ID96:        1554      1554     383082 [ID97]
ID97:           6        18      17208 [ID97]
ID98:        2072      9128    8320505 [ID27]
ID100:       7807     30842   31379487 [ID27]
============ fake IDs =======================
ID254:       1935      1935      38700 (Timestamps)
ID255:       7941      7941     119115 (Dummy)
        Total:30338/120978, Size:70196688

For Mark: Warning: Spoiler! (Click to show)
found a list of TVGoS packet's names in FW:

UpdatePkt (FW ?)
LineupPkt +
LineupSelPkt +
StationPkt
SchedulePkts
ShowPkts
DescPkts
CastPkts
ZipcodePkts +
TimezonePkts +
HostSchedule +
EPP +
DPP +
SortControl
ImageFrag +
System ?
Setup ?

Some are known to us. Perhaps the DVR has hidden TVGoS debug/stat screen.

Edited by P Smith - 1/21/13 at 7:30pm
post #15707 of 18096
Quote:
Originally Posted by golinux View Post

Like you I was hesitant to do a factory reset. But a while ago, I was feeling adventurous and tried a few things. This should work for you too since we are in the same market. First I disabled TVGOS as TalkingRat described here. The clock was still grayed out. Then I changed the zip code to 00000. Clock still locked. Next I tried a soft (power button) reset. The 'loaded please wait' screen sat there forever and I thought maybe I had bricked the DVR. But finally it started to search for stations. The soft reset unlocked the clock in conjunction with the other two changes I made in the menu. And the clock is no longer 1 min fast. I guess I'll find out in the morning whether the 'no information available' behavior is fixed.

In terms of clock stability, I don't see any real benefit to avoiding the factory reset option. Consider:

If you leave the clock "locked" by not doing anything after TVGOS disappears, then the DVR clock will continue to drift gradually (7-10 sec / day fast seems to be the consensus result). At that rate, within a month your clock will be off by about 5 min which is the max you can compensate for using the auto-padding option. So after that you'll be forced to use manual timers and go back and rename all your mis-named recordings, etc. Even if you're like dattier, and don't mind doing this, within another month or so after that, you're clock will be so far off that keeping track of your schedule will be unworkable. In short, "something must be done!"

Whether you decide to unlock the clock through a factory reset or some combination of tricks makes no difference, you still end up with a clock that is driven by some weighted average of PSIP times in your area. There is no option in the DVR firmware that gives you full manual control over the clock. You can change it (once you unlock it from TVGOS) but it will immediately start changing itself based on PSIP input.

So once TVGOS dies in your area you have two choices: Do nothing and have the DVR clock drift into uselessness within a couple months, or throw yourself on the mercy of your local PSIP data. There is no third option. Since we're all going to be forced to end up with option 2 within a few months anyway, I think the cleanest way of getting there is the full factory reset. We know the firmware is not very robust, so why invite trouble by using tricks to unlock the clock. The least fault-ridden route through the buggy firmware in a PSIP only environment would have to be booting a factory fresh unit into that PSIP only environment, not trying to trick a TVGOS locked DVR to stop looking for TVGOS timestamps.
post #15708 of 18096
Quote:
Originally Posted by jrpastore View Post

I think you're right. Both of my DVRs exhibited this "blank until tuned" guide behavior as well as clocks that have gone from 70s fast to 90s fast over the past few days. So I decided to do a factory reset on one of them and compare results:

Reset DVR: Clock is now about 30s fast and has remained so for 3 days. Clock-Set menu option is now un-grayed-out (as expected). Guide shows all channels populated for the full 12 hours required of PSIP even when no channels have been actively tuned in over 12 hours. (The ABC affiliate shows guide data out 24 hours and the FOX affiliate goes out a full 48).

Un-Reset DVR: Clock now about 100s fast and when the DVR is first turned on after being un-used for at least 12 hours, all guide data will be blank except for whatever channel it was on when it was turned on. Subsequently tuning in each channel (even for only 1 second) will result in the PSIP data for that channel populating the guide.

So I went ahead and did a full reset on the other DVR and it has behaved the same as the first one. I'll go out on a limb and recommend that everyone do a full factory reset of their DVR after their local TVGOS well runs dry. That seems the safest way of ensuring that the flaky firmware retains no "memory" of the fact that it once lived in a TVGOS environment.

If I recall, there were several people who reported that, after (temporarily) losing TVGOS for more than three days, their DTVPals did not pick the data up again when TVGOS was restored. It was as if the DTVPal stopped searching for it. Perhaps this is what is happening when TVGOS stops completely. After three days it not only stops scanning for TVGOS data, but also stops scanning on its own for PSIP data.
post #15709 of 18096
Quote:
Originally Posted by golinux View Post

Like you I was hesitant to do a factory reset. But a while ago, I was feeling adventurous and tried a few things. This should work for you too since we are in the same market. First I disabled TVGOS as TalkingRat described here. The clock was still grayed out. Then I changed the zip code to 00000. Clock still locked. Next I tried a soft (power button) reset. The 'loaded please wait' screen sat there forever and I thought maybe I had bricked the DVR. But finally it started to search for stations. The soft reset unlocked the clock in conjunction with the other two changes I made in the menu. And the clock is no longer 1 min fast. I guess I'll find out in the morning whether the 'no information available' behavior is fixed.

Let us know whether the clock is still unlocked the next time you check it.
post #15710 of 18096
Regarding Factory Reset.....It seems simple and easy enough to do. Why would anyone object if it fixes issues? Over the life of my DVR I have done so a few times. Especially when I was having issues getting TVGOS.

I will watch the clock issue and as I see it get messed up I will do the reset.
post #15711 of 18096
Quote:
Originally Posted by LenL View Post

Regarding Factory Reset.....It seems simple and easy enough to do. Why would anyone object if it fixes issues?

Please reconfirm that it doesn't delete recordings. (Obviously, I have never done a factory reset.)
post #15712 of 18096
A factory reset does not delete recordings. It will run the setup wizard, though, which erases your timers and rescans all your OTA channels. You'll have to re-delete the unwanted channels in your area and rename any channels you renamed before, then reschedule all upcoming recordings again.

It also resets all Pal settings to their defaults, so after you do one, you'll have to disable firmware updates again, reset the appearance of the guide, reset the padding for recordings, etc. So even though your recordings are safe, it can be somewhat of a hassle. I suspect that's why many folks are reluctant to go for the factory reset if there's a less disruptive alternative.
post #15713 of 18096
Quote:
Originally Posted by LenL View Post

Regarding Factory Reset.....It seems simple and easy enough to do. Why would anyone object if it fixes issues?.....

One reason I can think of for people avoiding a factory reset unless it is a last resort is you will lose all of your set program timers. For those that have a lot of recurring timers set it will require that they all be re-entered after the reset. Personally this doesn't really matter to me as I set most of my timers on a one-time basis depending on if the show I want to record is a new episode or a repeat. I use tvguide.com to get the new or repeat show information prior to setting my timers.

On another note we still have TVGOS here coming from WBZ channel 4 in Boston, which is a CBS owned-and-operated station. I'm waiting for TVGOS to abruptly end anytime between now and April and then make the change to PSIP only, as some of you are already experiencing.
post #15714 of 18096
Quote:
Originally Posted by trp2525 View Post

One reason I can think of for people avoiding a factory reset unless it is a last resort is you will lose all of your set program timers. For those that have a lot of recurring timers set it will require that they all be re-entered after the reset.

Most of us are doing exactly that twice per year anyway because it is the most reliable method of crossing a DST transition.
post #15715 of 18096
Quote:
Originally Posted by jrpastore View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by trp2525 View Post

One reason I can think of for people avoiding a factory reset unless it is a last resort is you will lose all of your set program timers. For those that have a lot of recurring timers set it will require that they all be re-entered after the reset.

Most of us are doing exactly that twice per year anyway because it is the most reliable method of crossing a DST transition.
Ditto. It's coming soon too! frown.gif
post #15716 of 18096
Quote:
Originally Posted by jrpastore View Post

Most of us are doing exactly that twice per year anyway because it is the most reliable method of crossing a DST transition.

I think if you'd substitute the word "some" for "most" you'd be much closer to the truth. Some (probably most) of us have no problems at all with the time change. Like any other problem with these devices, you hear most from those with trouble, and nothing at all from those with little or no problems.
post #15717 of 18096
Quote:
Originally Posted by golinux View Post


Like you I was hesitant to do a factory reset. But a while ago, I was feeling adventurous and tried a few things. This should work for you too since we are in the same market. First I disabled TVGOS as TalkingRat described here. The clock was still grayed out. Then I changed the zip code to 00000. Clock still locked. Next I tried a soft (power button) reset. The 'loaded please wait' screen sat there forever and I thought maybe I had bricked the DVR. But finally it started to search for stations. The soft reset unlocked the clock in conjunction with the other two changes I made in the menu. And the clock is no longer 1 min fast. I guess I'll find out in the morning whether the 'no information available' behavior is fixed.

 

I did a factory reset first, before TVGOS had actually disappeared, because it was locking up so much.  I didn't write down exactly what I did in what order, but at one point I did have clock access, changed it, and then TVGOS came back and reclaimed the clock.  TVGOS ended early this morning, so I tried a soft reset with TVGOS disabled and zipcode at 00000 -- and the clock is grayed out still. 

 

I won't bother with another factory reset yet, since PSIP clock averaging should work just fine here.  Diagnostics shows 12 PSIP stations, nearly all within 2 seconds.  Two are off  20-28 seconds, in opposite directions.  There's only one really bad time, off  -10566, and given there's a weighting function, I am assuming this one is thrown out.

 

Now that I need to pay attention to the clock, I miss not having a clock display.

 

PSIP on the weekend tends to fall apart for a couple stations.  Fox lost all guide info a few days ago, and they didn't fix it yesterday.  Two stations do 3 days, what a difference that makes!

 

I only have trouble with DST in the Fall, and this year, they all got it right.

post #15718 of 18096
One last observation on the PSIP diagnostics screen.

We have established that newly located stations are added to the top of the list. On a power fail or warm boot the order of entries on the diagnostic screen reverses. So if you have so many entries that you overflow the buffer, do you get a different channel list after reboot?
post #15719 of 18096
We don't know if the order have any resemblance with calculating and selection particular station as a reference to sync DVR's date/time. It's just a list on screen , limited to 12 or 13 entries to view.
post #15720 of 18096
Quote:
Originally Posted by TalkingRat View Post

Now that I need to pay attention to the clock, I miss not having a clock display.
Yes, but a VCR-style clock display would've cost an extra $3 or $4 per box. Can't be cutting into those profit margins!

Quote:
Originally Posted by TalkingRat View Post

PSIP on the weekend tends to fall apart for a couple stations.  Fox lost all guide info a few days ago, and they didn't fix it yesterday.
I think PSIP is an afterthought for many stations. In DFW we have one station that's never gotten it right. Not only do they do a mere 12 hours, but the guide on 47.4 is actually for 47.1, while the guide on 47.1 consists of 1-hour blocks reading "KTXD-DT 47.1" over and over rolleyes.gif The thing is, I know they can get it right if they want, because they send correct guide info to Zap2it. Unfortunately, they've never been on TVGoS, so on the Pal I've always had to put up with their PSIP guide.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TalkingRat View Post

Two stations do 3 days; what a difference that makes!
Agreed. Some DFW stations do 3 days, such as KDAF/33. That's handy because subchannel 33.3 isn't on TVGoS either, but I can still look on Friday & plan ahead through Sunday.
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