or Connect
AVS › AVS Forum › HDTV › HDTV Recorders › The Official AVS Dish DTVPal DVR Topic!
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:

The Official AVS Dish DTVPal DVR Topic! - Page 532

post #15931 of 18096
Quote:
Originally Posted by mabuttra View Post

I think the problem is that the bad recording is the first one in your list. I would just record something new (anything at all, just for five minutes should work), just so the bad recording would no longer be first in the list. I think you could get to your recordings screen then.

Edit: Chanman123 beat me to it. biggrin.gif
Mark

Great minds think alike.smile.gif
post #15932 of 18096
Quote:
Originally Posted by mabuttra View Post

I think the problem is that the bad recording is the first one in your list. I would just record something new (anything at all, just for five minutes should work), just so the bad recording would no longer be first in the list. I think you could get to your recordings screen then.

Edit: Chanman123 beat me to it. biggrin.gif
Mark

Great minds think alike! Thanks both of you. Will try that the next time I turn the DVR on to watch something tonite, and report back ASAP. Right now it's unplugged, with the coax antenna disconnected, because I didn't know what else to do when it was still rebooting for me when I'd hit the My Recordings button. You've given me LOTS of hope again. I REALLY didn't want to reformat and lose everything I've been saving for the past year.
post #15933 of 18096
Quote:
Originally Posted by mabuttra View Post

CO_Bear had this problem a few weeks ago. His first post about it was here, and his last post was here.

In short he went to the recordings screen, and figured out which recording caused the DTVPal to reboot. He then went back to the recordings screen, chose "select all", and then unselected all the recordings except the bad one, and then chose "Delete".

Mark

Thanks a lot Mark and CO_Bear. It worked great! Missing my TVGOS a bit, but I'll survive using PSIP data. wink.gif Clock is about 90 seconds behind in Houston.

Thanks again

-Andy
post #15934 of 18096
Quote:
Originally Posted by mabuttra View Post

I don't need a log, thanks. What does your DTVPal show? Does it have listings beyond next Monday? Maybe the listings aren't updating.

Mark
TVGuide logo is back, but no data for 7 days. Some station have max upto Tue, 2/12 5:30am: 36.2 KICU-SD or 44.1 KBCW or 9.1 KQED
post #15935 of 18096
Quote:
Originally Posted by LuvMyDVR33 View Post

Great minds think alike! Thanks both of you. Will try that the next time I turn the DVR on to watch something tonite, and report back ASAP. Right now it's unplugged, with the coax antenna disconnected, because I didn't know what else to do when it was still rebooting for me when I'd hit the My Recordings button. You've given me LOTS of hope again. I REALLY didn't want to reformat and lose everything I've been saving for the past year.

LuvMyDVR33
One more tip that will come in handy. Since you want to keep old recordings, you may want to go into "Options" under My Recording first and sort your recordings by Ascending dates. This will allow you to keep all recordings listed above the "Bad one".
post #15936 of 18096
Quote:
Originally Posted by mabuttra View Post

CO_Bear had this problem a few weeks ago. His first post about it was here, and his last post was here.

In short he went to the recordings screen, and figured out which recording caused the DTVPal to reboot. He then went back to the recordings screen, chose "select all", and then unselected all the recordings except the bad one, and then chose "Delete".

Mark

I love forums like this. I, too, recently ran into the same problem with my DTVPal rebooting because of a bad recording, although I didn't know that's what it was until I came here. I, too, had gotten to the point where I couldn't even get into My Recordings without the reboot and I don't if I ever would have figured it out myself. Thank you mabuttra and CO_Bear for your efforts in figuring it out and sharing the results.
post #15937 of 18096
I got hit hard by the DST bug this morning, with both overnight recordings an hour fast, and all timers screwed up. However, things got weird while I was watching a recording. About a half hour into the playback, the remote became totally unresponsive, but the green light continued to respond to the remote's button presses. I left it alone for a while, and the DVR proceeded to reboot after about 4 minutes. I checked the timers after the reboot, and they were all correct again. Good times.
post #15938 of 18096
The hour change happens today because we are exacly a month away from March 10, the day we advance our clocks.

Our DVRs receive a PSIP message with the day (10) but without the name of the month and perform the change today!

The DVR clock as well as the Guide move forward by 1 hour.

From last year experience, I think the best thing is to do nothing and hope that tomorrow things will be back to normal.

.
post #15939 of 18096
Quote:
Originally Posted by Verrdun View Post

The hour change happens today because we are exacly a month away from March 10, the day we advance our clocks.

Our DVRs receive a PSIP message with the day (10) but without the name of the month and perform the change today!

The DVR clock as well as the Guide move forward by 1 hour.

From last year experience, I think the best thing is to do nothing and hope that tomorrow things will be back to normal.

.
On mine, tonight's and this week's recordings' times look fine. However, next week's repeating schedule are all an hour behind. I will have to check them often to be sure if they need to be fixed. Also, all these recordings (five minutes padding before and after) were set from my TVGOS (still active in Los Angeles/L.A.).
post #15940 of 18096
Quote:
Originally Posted by rustycruiser View Post

Same.
No TVGOS from DC or Baltimore zip codes. I miss it.

Have either of you DC users got TVGOS back...I've been out as well since last week. also tried Baltimore zip and so far, nothing.mad.gif
post #15941 of 18096
I still do not have TVGOS in Washington DC. As of this morning, the logo has disappeared. The PSIP guide would be okay if it went out at least 24 hours. I may have to bite the bullet and buy a TIVO or build my own system.
post #15942 of 18096
Quote:
Originally Posted by Verrdun View Post

The hour change happens today because we are exacly a month away from March 10, the day we advance our clocks.

Our DVRs receive a PSIP message with the day (10) but without the name of the month and perform the change today!

The DVR clock as well as the Guide move forward by 1 hour.

From last year experience, I think the best thing is to do nothing and hope that tomorrow things will be back to normal.

.
Same happened to mine. I'm PSIP only BTW - TVGOS ended several weeks ago here.
post #15943 of 18096
Quote:
Originally Posted by Verrdun View Post

Our DVRs receive a PSIP message with the day (10) but without the name of the month and perform the change today!

I have tilted at this windmill a couple of times. Setting the day of month for the change today is an error on the part of the station but they don't believe it. Or in any case the manufacturer of the equipment they use doesn't.

I guess it is time once again to complain to each station (although only one has ever responded) and visit the FCC complaint web page again. I think that I am the only person complaining.
post #15944 of 18096
Quote:
Originally Posted by LuvMyDVR33 View Post

Great minds think alike! Thanks both of you. Will try that the next time I turn the DVR on to watch something tonite, and report back ASAP. Right now it's unplugged, with the coax antenna disconnected, because I didn't know what else to do when it was still rebooting for me when I'd hit the My Recordings button. You've given me LOTS of hope again. I REALLY didn't want to reformat and lose everything I've been saving for the past year.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chanman123 View Post

LuvMyDVR33
One more tip that will come in handy. Since you want to keep old recordings, you may want to go into "Options" under My Recording first and sort your recordings by Ascending dates. This will allow you to keep all recordings listed above the "Bad one".

I didn't get a chance to check this forum last night, but I figured out to change to Ascending by myself, so that makes me feel pretty smart this morning. LOL! I never looked into Edit or Options before I read about it here, so this forum has really been useful. Once I recorded a short item last night, I was able to get into My Recordings as predicted, but I wanted to make a list on paper of everything I have on the HDD right now, before I tried to delete anything.
I did try the Select All, but I was trying to deselect one of the ones I wanted to save, and the DVR rebooted, so I gave up for the night. I have over 40 programs in the list, so I won't be able to see all of them on the same screen when I uncheck the boxes, and that kinda makes me nervous that I will accidentally delete one that I meant to save.
Everything on the list is protected though, except for 2 of the 3 pieces of the one I want to delete. Since I've never done this before, I'm wondering how the protected one will delete. Let's say I do this without unchecking anything, just hit Select All and then Delete. Will it only then delete the 2 unprotected ones that are the questionable ones? That would make things easier. Or would the Delete not work at all because most of the Selected ones are protected?
Do we know what caused this to happen in the fist place after never happening before? We aren't all in the same city and we weren't all recording the same program, so what happened Friday night that made a recorded program reboot the DVR for several of us? I wonder how many others with a Pal who don't know about this forum are going to scrap the machine thinking it can't be fixed. :-(
post #15945 of 18096
Quote:
Originally Posted by mabuttra View Post

Are you sure? According to this and this, KPIX pulled their inserter sometime last Monday. confused.gif

Mark
After a day of observations, I'm pretty sure the ROVI's "inserter" is still connected and running at KPIX premises; TSReader shows its PID 0x0111, my DLL shows TVGoS tables/packets, TR-50 does get TVGuide logo after rebbot but guide data.

It would be interesting to compare logs before Monday and after to catch what is missing; I'm collecting one for further investigation; I did start the morning after 8am and will keep it running for next 12 hours.

Unfortunately, without decoding internal data of each relevant packet, we couldn't say for sure, I'm expect to see if some ID missing or its size is reduced. That's would be simple check what could give us some clue.
post #15946 of 18096
Quote:
Originally Posted by P Smith View Post

100%.


I am also in SF Bay Area - KPIX OTA.

Right now I see Time/ID98/ID100/ID26 for 5 min monitoring. Wanna see TSReader's snapshots or a log ?

On my Sony DHG-250, I am seeing

LastClkSet is 2/10/13 16:15 (current time displayed is 18:00 - GMT, I assume?)

LastDLStart is 2/5 17:11, LastDLTime is 2/5 17:38 (I am guessing those are related to listings)

so I also appear to be receiving clock data, but not listings.
post #15947 of 18096
Quote:
Originally Posted by LuvMyDVR33 View Post

Let's say I do this without unchecking anything, just hit Select All and then Delete. Will it only then delete the 2 unprotected ones that are the questionable ones?
Yes. The only time it would delete protected recordings is if you were to Format the HDD.
post #15948 of 18096
Quote:
Originally Posted by dattier View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by JHBrandt View Post

If the actual show is shorter or longer than an hour, you'll have to edit your timer after creating it, to reflect the desired start and/or end time.
... if you're going to have to edit it, you might as well just create a Manual Timer in the first place.
True. But some might find it simpler or more convenient to create the initial timer from the guide (even a guide that just says "no info") then edit it, rather than entering the date, start & end times, and the channel all manually. even though they'll end up with a manual timer either way. And I didn't want to complicate my explanation by getting into too many details, so I just threw in a note about the timer picking up the wrong show name if you edit it and it starts early.
post #15949 of 18096
Quote:
Originally Posted by homer86 View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by mabuttra View Post

CO_Bear had this problem a few weeks ago. His first post about it was here, and his last post was here.

In short he went to the recordings screen, and figured out which recording caused the DTVPal to reboot. He then went back to the recordings screen, chose "select all", and then unselected all the recordings except the bad one, and then chose "Delete".

Mark

I love forums like this. I, too, recently ran into the same problem with my DTVPal rebooting because of a bad recording, although I didn't know that's what it was until I came here. I, too, had gotten to the point where I couldn't even get into My Recordings without the reboot and I don't if I ever would have figured it out myself. Thank you mabuttra and CO_Bear for your efforts in figuring it out and sharing the results.

I agree; this forum has been extremely helpful.

The other day one of my Pals went haywire, and my wife called me in to fix it. It was acting very strangely; you could change channels and the info box would pop up, but then go away in less than a second, and there was no picture or sound on any channel.

Before I started reading this forum I probably would have panicked; but instead, I calmly picked up the remote, pressed the Power button and held it down until the Pal started to reboot. Once it rebooted all was normal again! My wife thinks I'm a genius, but it's actually you guys & gals wink.gif
post #15950 of 18096
Quote:
Originally Posted by davbrown2 View Post

On my Sony DHG-250, I am seeing

LastClkSet is 2/10/13 16:15 (current time displayed is 18:00 - GMT, I assume?)

LastDLStart is 2/5 17:11, LastDLTime is 2/5 17:38 (I am guessing those are related to listings)

so I also appear to be receiving clock data, but not listings.
For sure timestamps are coming each 15 sec, I see it with +3 sec error ( by TSReader + DLL reports); my 3 hours log does show 26 different types of packets (I recall before I saw/got 27 types). If we could look inside of these ...

Here is some historical data:
Code:
05/19/12 11:02:56 - 05/19/12 23:04:31

 TVGOS Tables/Packets Statistics:
IDs        tables   packets      bytes  known type
ID00:       21562     22895     323430 [Dummy]
ID01:        2880      2880      57600 [Timestamps]
----------------------------------------------------------------------
ID26:         340      3971    1321861
ID42:         253       422     143582
ID58:         345      2805    1320647
ID66:          69      4025     225584 [LineupSelPkts]
ID67:         818     10865    2959798 [LineupPkts]
ID68:          23        23       9890 [DPP]
ID69:         577      5419    2230880 [ID70]
ID70:        1265      8863    4814584 [ID70]
ID71:        1112      9224    4269035 [ID70]
ID72:         171      1515     662310 [ID70]
ID73:         115       391     356362
ID74:          23        46      31993
ID75:          23        23       7383 [EPP]
ID77:         767       767     113516 [ZipcodePkts]
ID78:          23        23       3542 [TimezonePkts]
ID79:         107       321     132252 [HostSchedulePkts]
ID80:          27        51      46650
ID81:        1417     18193    5502429
ID85:          12       300      48144 [ID27]
ID86:          30       120     121683 [ID27]
ID87:         126       126      48867 [ID97]
ID88:           3         3        141 [ID97]
ID89:        2223      7737    7209897 [ID97]
ID96:        1461      1461     358815 [ID97]
ID97:           6        18      17190 [ID97]
ID98:        2059      9055    8240950 [ID27]
ID100:       7774     31493   31443022 [ID27]
        Total:45611/143035, Size:72022037

01/21/13 11:05:01 - 01/21/13 19:08:32

 TVGOS Tables/Packets Statistics:
IDs        tables   packets      bytes  known type
ID00:         211      1779       4853 [Empty]
ID26:         301      3853    1161634 (Marker)
ID66:          48      2800     162272 [LineupSelPkts]
ID67:         528      6800    1941616 [LineupPkts]
ID68:          16        16       7040 [DPP]
ID69:         672      6060    2568528 [SchedulePkts]
ID70:        1431     10029    5458353 [ShowPkts]
ID71:        1278     10512    4906392 [DescPkts]
ID72:         177      1746     679533 [CastPkts]
ID73:          80       272     248176
ID74:          16        32      22304
ID75:          16        16       5136 [EPP]
ID77:         300       300      44400 [ZipcodePkts]
ID78:          16        16       2464 [TimezonePkts]
ID79:         100       300     123600 [HostSchedulePkts]
ID80:          27        51      46650
ID81:        1284     16475    5001733 {V8FW}
ID85:          13       323      52156 {Ads, binary}
ID86:          51       219     205011 {Ads, PNG,text}
ID87:         126       126      49077 [ID97]
ID88:           3         3        141 [ID97]
ID89:        2329      7832    7247522 [ID97: ImageFrag]
ID96:        1554      1554     383082 [ID97]
ID97:           6        18      17208 [ID97]
ID98:        2072      9128    8320505 {Ads, XML}
ID100:       7807     30842   31379487 {Ads, binary}
----------------------------------------------------------------------
ID254:       1935      1935      38700 (Timestamps)
ID255:       7941      7941     119115 (Dummy)
        Total:30338/120978, Size:70196688


01/28/13 17:25:38 - 01/28/13 21:20:17
 TVGOS Tables/Packets Statistics:
IDs        tables   packets      bytes  known type
ID00:          52       204       1196 [Empty]
ID26:          52       943     198068
ID66:          21      1225      70994 [LineupSelPkts]
ID67:         230      2971     845272 [LineupPkts]
ID68:           7         7       3080 [DPP]
ID73:          35       119     108591
ID74:           7        14       9758
ID75:           7         7       2268 [EPP]
ID77:         376       376      55648 [ZipcodePkts]
ID78:           7         7       1078 [TimezonePkts]
ID79:          13        39      16068 [HostSchedulePkts]
ID81:         140      1813     528626 {V8 FW}
ID89:          29        88      82327 [ID97: ImageFrag]
ID100:       1996      8089    8071972 {Ads, binary}
----------------------------------------------------------------------
ID254:        934       934      18680 (Timestamps)
ID255:      10994     10994     164910 (Dummy)
        Total:14900/27830, Size:10178536

02/06/13 14:18:00 - 02/06/13 14:59:01
 TVGOS Tables/Packets Statistics:
IDs        tables   packets      bytes  known type
ID00:           4        19         92 [Empty]
ID26:           9        74      35815
ID66:           3       175      10142 [LineupSelPkts]
ID67:          33       426     121229 [LineupPkts]
ID68:           1         1        440 [DPP]
ID69:         112      1014     428306 [SchedulePkts]
ID70:         463      3218    1755474 [ShowPkts]
ID71:         246      1981     939583 [DescPkts]
ID73:           5        17      15513
ID74:           1         2       1394
ID75:           1         1        324 [EPP]
ID77:          22        22       3256 [ZipcodePkts]
ID78:           1         1        154 [TimezonePkts]
ID79:          13        39      16068 [HostSchedulePkts]
ID80:           6        12      11064
ID81:          20       259      75518 {V8 FW}
ID98:         681      2993    2731414 {Ads, XML}
----------------------------------------------------------------------
ID254:        165       165       3300 (Timestamps)
ID255:        608       608       9120 (Dummy)
        Total:2394/11027, Size:6158206

02/09/13 09:49:56 - 02/09/13 10:15:00
 TVGOS Tables/Packets Statistics:
IDs        tables   packets      bytes  known type
ID00:           3        15         69 [Empty]
ID26:           7        55      27835
ID69:         112      1014     428306 [SchedulePkts]
ID70:         308      2095    1166242 [ShowPkts]
ID73:           1         4       3092
ID77:          14        14       2072 [ZipcodePkts]
ID78:           1         1        154 [TimezonePkts]
ID79:           7        21       8652 [HostSchedulePkts]
ID80:           4         8       7376
ID98:         539      2358    2162114 {Ads, XML}
----------------------------------------------------------------------
ID254:        101       101       2020 (Timestamps)
ID255:        359       359       5385 (Dummy)
        Total:1456/6045, Size:3813317


And from today's ( 12+ hrs) log:

02/10/13 08:30:51 - 02/10/13 20:58:27

 TVGOS Tables/Packets Statistics:
IDs            tables   packets      bytes  known type
ID00:         267      2707       6141 [Empty]
ID26:         491      4971    1919099
ID66:          75      4375     253550 [LineupSelPkts]
ID67:         825     10650    3030725 [LineupPkts]
ID68:          25        25      11000 [DPP]
ID69:         896      8112    3426448 [SchedulePkts]
ID70:        1897     13206    7193056 [ShowPkts]
ID71:        1728     13984    6600624 [DescPkts]
ID72:         240      2384     928960 [CastPkts]
ID73:         125       425     387825
ID74:          25        50      34850
ID75:          25        25       8100 [EPP]
ID77:         608       608      89984 [ZipcodePkts]
ID78:          25        25       3850 [TimezonePkts]
ID79:         145       435     179220 [HostSchedulePkts]
ID80:          34        66      60604
ID81:        2371     30394    9250358 {V8 FW}
ID85:          30       746     120360 {Ads, binary}
ID86:         119       504     474649 {Ads, PNG,text}
ID87:         168       168      67020 [ID97]
ID88:           4         4        188 [ID97]
ID89:        3072     10440    9680640 [ID97: ImageFrag]
ID96:        2088      2088     515664 [ID97]
ID97:           8        24      22836 [ID97]
ID98:        2740     12036   10991160 {Ads, XML}
ID100:       9832     38842   39526749 {Ads, binary}
-------------------------------------------------------
ID254:       2989      2989      59780 (Timestamps)
ID255:      16365     16365     245475 (Dummy)
        Total:47217/176648, Size:95088915


Comparing 05/19/12 and today's data, I see increase in numbers and sizes for 12 hrs runs.
So, the KPIX 'inserter" is alive and pushing TVGoS data, but the content is blocked for parsing by Sony or the DVRs.

Who is cheating us?!
Edited by P Smith - 2/10/13 at 9:11pm
post #15951 of 18096
Quote:
Originally Posted by gary-in-dc View Post

Have either of you DC users got TVGOS back...I've been out as well since last week. also tried Baltimore zip and so far, nothing.mad.gif
Nothing. Less than 24 hours PSIP on everything, except channel 7 which has a teensy bit more. This blows

It's like having a VCR again. Manual programming, here I come.

Way to break something that worked like a charm for 5 years, Rovi. You dicks.
post #15952 of 18096
Is Rovi still in business?

Since when we bought these DVRs and TVs and everything else which had TVGOS as a benefit, doesn't that mean there is a legal commitment by ROVI and the manufacturer of our units to continue that service according to our original purchase agreement? Is there some potential here for a class action against not only Rovi but all manufacturers which included it as a function of their hardware?

Just wondering.... would rather have TVGOS back instead of some monetary refund... but maybe pressure is what would get us TVGOS back again?
post #15953 of 18096
This has been discussed multiple times in multiple topics related to TVGOS devices. The short answer is Rovi doesn't owe you anything, because you were never a customer of Rovi. The manufacturer of the DVR you bought was Rovi's customer, and if you read the documentation of your TVGOS-aware device, it has a disclaimer saying that TVGOS may not be available everywhere and to everyone. Some people lived in markets without a station to distribute TVGOS and never had access to it, and now that Rovi is discontinuing the service nationwide, everyone else falls under the disclaimer, too.
post #15954 of 18096
yeah, just read a few pages back, how the pitch dissected in the thread...
post #15955 of 18096
Quote:
Originally Posted by visualsensation View Post

I got hit hard by the DST bug this morning, with both overnight recordings an hour fast, and all timers screwed up. However, things got weird while I was watching a recording. About a half hour into the playback, the remote became totally unresponsive, but the green light continued to respond to the remote's button presses. I left it alone for a while, and the DVR proceeded to reboot after about 4 minutes. I checked the timers after the reboot, and they were all correct again. Good times.

I'm in the NY market and turned my units on this afternoon and found the clock off by 1 hour ahead. I did a soft reset with the remote and the time corrected itself.
post #15956 of 18096
Quote:
Originally Posted by LenL View Post

I'm in the NY market and turned my units on this afternoon and found the clock off by 1 hour ahead. I did a soft reset with the remote and the time corrected itself.

And then it quickly changed back. So I now changed the time zone from Eastern to Central and the clock so far is right.
post #15957 of 18096
Or turn off DST time
post #15958 of 18096
Quote:
Originally Posted by Scooper View Post

Or turn off DST time
I tried that. It immediately changed back - would not keep the change.
I'm just going to see what its doing in the morning...
post #15959 of 18096
Quote:
Originally Posted by Aleron Ives View Post

This has been discussed multiple times in multiple topics related to TVGOS devices. The short answer is Rovi doesn't owe you anything, because you were never a customer of Rovi. The manufacturer of the DVR you bought was Rovi's customer, and if you read the documentation of your TVGOS-aware device, it has a disclaimer saying that TVGOS may not be available everywhere and to everyone. Some people lived in markets without a station to distribute TVGOS and never had access to it, and now that Rovi is discontinuing the service nationwide, everyone else falls under the disclaimer, too.
The difference is that TVGOS was available to me when I bought the unit and the un-availability to me right now is not an OOPSY, just not available, but instead, a FRAK you, we are discontinuing it to you just to save money....

Any judge can and will see the difference between the two.

If I buy a car with anti-lock brakes, and the manufacturer has some troubled financial times in the future and discontinues the car software which continues to provide those anti-lock brakes, then that is legally pursueable as a breach of contract.... just as this is regarding TVGOS. Nothing is preventing Rovi from continuing to adhere to the contract we signed except they have decided our contract is now too expensive for them to continue to adhere to.
post #15960 of 18096
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jack Morris View Post

The difference is that TVGOS was available to me when I bought the unit and the un-availability to me right now is not an OOPSY, just not available, but instead, a FRAK you, we are discontinuing it to you just to save money....

Any judge can and will see the difference between the two.

If I buy a car with anti-lock brakes, and the manufacturer has some troubled financial times in the future and discontinues the car software which continues to provide those anti-lock brakes, then that is legally pursueable as a breach of contract.... just as this is regarding TVGOS. Nothing is preventing Rovi from continuing to adhere to the contract we signed except they have decided our contract is now too expensive for them to continue to adhere to.
People like you provide logic. Others are happy you suffer. That is the difference. Rovi treated their customers very badly. the ceo never made a statement. It was we are better then you and we can do what we want. Many of us tried to rally support and go to the rovi facebook page to post our unhappiness. Yet some one here attacked me and others who did just that. What rovi did was morally and ethically wrong. The sony boxes are now $1000 door stops.
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:
  Return Home
  Back to Forum: HDTV Recorders
AVS › AVS Forum › HDTV › HDTV Recorders › The Official AVS Dish DTVPal DVR Topic!