The Official AVS Dish DTVPal DVR Topic! - Page 545

Yes, 100 ppm = .01%. But I'd think the next more accurate "bin" would be +/- 50 ppm at worst. If Echostar bought +/- 100 ppm crystals for the Pal, we should see a range of inaccuracies from 4 to 8 seconds per day (because every crystal would be at least 50 ppm off but no more than 100 ppm off), and there'd be just as many slow clocks as fast ones. But hasn't everyone who's measured their Pal's clock found it to be just about 8 secs/day fast?

Do you know for sure there is a crystal in there -- they could be just using the A/C line frequency for the clock. Even if there is a quartz oscillator, devices like the Pal DVR, that were designed around using a periodic external time source to keep the clock accurate, generally don't devote a lot of design effort to the clock circuit. If the assumption is that the clock will be refreshed periodically by an external source, then they are only concerned with keeping it accurate to a couple seconds between refresh periods.

Yes.

You can change the channel, but if you change the start time, the duration, or the repetition schedule, the event timer gets converted to a manual timer.  If you can't find an existing guide entry with the right date, start time, and duration, you'll end up with a manual timer, so you might as well in the first place.  (If you entered it originally with the wrong repetition, you can delete it and reenter it from scratch and still have an event timer.)

Yes, with one major difference: WLS's original digital channel was 52, which was out-of-core after transition.  They apparently hadn't minded using an out-of-core channel because they intended all along to use their legacy analog channel for ATSC after the transition date.  Thus, when VHF proved disappointing, they couldn't return to the same pre-transition digital channel.

So on transition day, RF52 went dark and RF7 went digital, and the result was the same as KTVT's and as those for a number of other ABC O&O's that had been so enamored of clinging to RF7.  RF44 was WSNS's old analog channel (their digital channel is 45), so WLS started simulcasting on RF7 and RF44, and RF7 will go dark this coming Monday.  I wouldn't care one way or the other except that the room where I need to use the PAL DVR has no connection to the roof antenna, and an indoor antenna there gets RF7 so much more reliably than RF44, despite RF44's recent power increase.  Thus, on my DVR, RF44 sticks, pixelates, and breaks up while RF7 comes through smoothly.

Obviously Disney isn't going to change its plans to accommodate me, nor are they going to pay for the purchase and installation of a second roof antenna so that my DVR can receive RF44 better.  Thus, I'm left with my sighs of disappointment.
Edited by dattier - 3/15/13 at 10:34am

An interesting quirk!

I have 3 units. One of the older ones is currently out of service. I'll call that one unit #1. Unit #1 and unit #2 are both a little over 3 years old, unit # 3 is less than one month old. As the clocks drift I would manually reset them. No problems resetting #1 and #3. However whenever I reset #2 the clock resets 2 minutes later than the time I set. IE if I set it for 10:31 AM the clock will set at 10:33 AM. The only way for me to get the correct time is to input the time 2 minutes earlier than the correct time. I have tried resetting at diffent times, and even after going through the whole installation wizard get the same results.

I would do factory reset to default ...

P Smith, did you receive a PM from me earlier this week? I haven't received a response.

I was asking whether or not you still do repairs on these, the cost, and details to get them to you. I have one in a loop.

If you still do this kind of work, could you share that information with us?

I've tried several hypotheses; nothing seems to make sense.

If they're using a crystal (I assume there's a crystal in there to clock the CPU, but there's no guarantee they're keeping time by it), the error should vary from one Pal to the next.

If they're using the AC power line for the clock, it should be accurate. Power companies constantly adjust their line frequencies to stay in sync with each other, so over the long term, it's more accurate than a crystal.

If they're counting frames from the composite (NTSC) output, it should be slow by 8 secs/day, unless they apply a correction.

Unless ... maybe they're using the AC power line, but (incorrectly) applying the correction for NTSC! That could be it!!

That sounds like the kind of mistake those silly 50 Hz Brits would make. If so, it's like I said - another firmware bug. Of course, under "normal" circumstances no one would notice because the clock would periodically be resynced to either TVGoS or the PSIP average.
Edited by JHBrandt - 3/15/13 at 1:16pm

Or, as I said, the clock circuit was never designed for long-term accuracy because it was assumed that the clock would be periodically reset with the accurate time at least once per day.

Regardless of what accounts for the Pal's clock drift, I'm sure that's true. And I probably don't have to remind anyone what happens when you assume

Looking at the board image I see 5 obvious crystal packages.

One other thing that I didn't mention is that crystal operating frequency is sensitive to capacitive loading. It is possible that they used a nice +/-20ppm crystal but loaded it so that it is offset. Now if you can figure out just which one is used for time keeping and tweak the capacitive load, you could get it to keep better time.

 

If anyone figures out which crystal is the clock, here's a Magnavox tinkerer's post on adding a capacitor to make the Mag's clock run more true... might help a DIY tinkerer get started on this unit?

I did answer same day...to your email addy; all process outlined there.

Thank you. Apparently it didn't make it through, nothing in my gmail inbox from you. Could you please try to resend the information via PM?

Next one to CPU's can. Per se , there is no separate xtal for asked purpose. Time derived from reference clock of the CPU.

I just did the two soft resets because the clock kept running fast when set manually. Now let's see if it stabilizes.

Since TVGOS has disappeared in the Washington, DC area, it would be good to try to convince the local broadcasters to expand their PSIP listings beyond 12 hours.

Has anyone put together a list of individuals (preferably engineers) in Washington who can be contacted? I may be naive, but maybe they will take some action if they receive enough emails.

I did that too, but in my area the mean PSIP time is 45 seconds slow,
so I went back to setting the clock manually.

You would think that all of these TV stations would at least get their PSIP time correct seeing that the digital transition took place 4 years ago in 2009! I guess not many people pay attention to it or use it like we do with our OTA DVRs.

My DVRs are running 4 seconds fast right now being synced up with PSIP. I consider myself lucky that it is that close with the weighted mean of PSIP times in my area. That's much better than the 8-seconds-per-day drift (fast) that I had when I was setting the clock manually.

Try contacting the stations, letting them know their times are off and that you need accurate times for your DVR clock. I did for the four serious drifters in my list; I received pretty quick replies from two of them and saw adjustments of all four times within a few days. (The general manager of one of the stations told me their equipment checked only once every 90 days but would now do so every 24 hours.)

Has anyone ever contected Direct TV and found out who made the PALDVR for them? If we could find that out perhaps we could bypass Direct TV and go right to the manufacturer for support for our units.

Actually it was Dish, not DirecTV, who sold the DTVPal DVRs.

They were made by Echostar, which was spun off from Dish some time ago to manufacture consumer-end equipment. Echostar also made the identical (except for branding) Channel Master version (the CM-7000 Pal).

Unfortunately, so far we've had no more luck with Echostar than we've had with Dish or CM. Echostar sees their "customers" as other businesses (chiefly Dish) and really isn't set up to deal with end users.

The DVR has been abandoned by echostar and dish because initial idea: to sell a content by OTA PayTV and Internet (see that smart card underneath) went south ...

That DTVPal DVR's price on eBay keeps rising every day. It's now $389.99 with 4 available!!!

Time to assemble my test DVR and sell it ... nay, I still need it to help answering questions and play with a drive ...

If anyone needs a replacement or extra remote for their Dish DTVPal DVR or Channel Master CM-7000PAL DVR there is an excellent deal available on eBay right now. There is a seller (alwaysbuyalot) who is selling brand-new Dish 20.1 Learning Remotes for only $6.00 including FREE shipping. There are currently 193 available.

As has been posted in this thread in the past this remote is just about an exact replacement for the original remote with just a few minor button differences. The seller states that this remote also works with the Dish 222, 311, 522, 622, 625, 722 "and more." A side-by-side comparison picture of the two remotes is shown here with the original remote on the left and the replacement remote on the right.

I have one of these remotes and it works perfectly. Since I work it a LOT, I think I'll get a couple of spares. Thanks.

Is there a button on the 20.1 remote that will operate Closed Captions? I use that one often.

SWAP=CC
PIP=Sysinfo
Postion=Alt audio

Here's a link to the manual for the Dish Remote Control Model 21. It replaced the Dish Remote Control Model 20 that is selling on eBay for $6 but the manual should be about the same. Dish apparently, in their infinite wisdom, removes the manuals for older Dish products from their website just when someone would probably need them the most because they can no longer find their original manual!