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The Official AVS Dish DTVPal DVR Topic! - Page 585

post #17521 of 18096
I haven't tried it but it seems to me that assuming the default settings are START EARLY=1 and STOP LATE=1 -- you could programs as follows:

CH 2, 8-9PM (options STOP LATE=0)

CH 3, 8-11PM

CH 2, 9-10PM (options START EARLY=0)

If the method works, the question is how many seconds does the DTVPal take to terminate one recording and start another since undoubtedly the switch over will NOT occur exactly on the hour.

( If you ever go back and edit the the timer the START/STOP options are no longer used -- even if the only thing you change are those options!)
Edited by Pete-N2 - 10/7/13 at 8:36am
post #17522 of 18096
This is a question about daisy chaining 2 PALDVRS.

Since I recently learned (thanks to this forum) that I could get rid of the 3 way splitter feeding my antenna lead to 2 separate PALDVRS and my TV, I now use a 2 way splitter to split the feed to each PALDVR and send the pass through RF from one PALDVR to the TV. That's working fine.

Now I am thinking why not get rid of the 2 way splitter feeding the 2 PALDVRS and just run the antenna lead to one PALDVR and then send the RF output to the second PALDVR and then take the RF from that one to the TV.

Anyone see an issue with this? Advantages outside of eliminating a splitter and the signal loss with it?
post #17523 of 18096
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pete-N2 View Post

I haven't tried it but it seems to me that assuming the default settings are START EARLY=1 and STOP LATE=1 -- you could programs as follows:

CH 2, 8-9PM (options STOP LATE=0)

CH 3, 8-11PM

CH 2, 9-10PM (options START EARLY=0)

If the method works, the questio you change are the optionsn is how many seconds does the DTVPal take to terminate one recording and start another since undoubtedly the switch over will NOT occur exactly on the hour.

( If you ever go back and edit the the timer the START/STOP options are no longer used -- even if the only thing you change are those options!)

Or you just spend about $40 and get a single tuner DVR the IVIEW 3500 and use it when you have these issues to supplement your PALDVR. You will need an external drive to marry up with it for storage of recordings.
post #17524 of 18096
Quote:
Originally Posted by LenL View Post

This is a question about daisy chaining 2 PALDVRS.



Now I am thinking why not get rid of the 2 way splitter feeding the 2 PALDVRS and just run the antenna lead to one PALDVR and then send the RF output to the second PALDVR and then take the RF from that one to the TV.

Anyone see an issue with this?

Only that you can't record on the downstream DVR while you're watching a recording stored on the upstream DVR.  It might have been possible to design the DTVPal DVR to output current playback through HDMI and/or component and/or composite, such that you could send the upstream DVR's output to the TV while it passed RF to the downstream DVR, but it wasn't designed like that.  (For example, the Zinwell ZAT970 CECB can pass RF through while sending audio and composite video from its own tuner out the RCA jacks, allowing you to record one channel to an NTSC VCR while you watch another channel on a TV that has its own ATSC tuner.)  If the DTVPal DVR is in standby or in passthrough, the only output is passthrough RF and the other outputs are dead; otherwise, whatever the DVR is sending goes to all four outputs, so even if you use another connection to feed the TV from the upstream DVR, you can't record on the downstream DVR while you're watching the outoupt of the upstream DVR.
post #17525 of 18096
My Pal #1 has problems. Either both tuners died or the signal is not getting to them. Worse than that, trying to fix it, I may have killed it. Here's what happened ...

I believe, I had just finished watching a recording, deleted it and then either I returned to live TV or noticed that the little live TV screen froze and then went to live TV. In either case, the picture had some pixelization and was frozen. Plus, now the pal did not respond to other commands - change channel, DVR, menu - it was locked-up, so I did a soft reboot.

It took longer than usual for the pal to go into reboot and when it finally did, it got stuck on the loading please wait screen. So i pulled the plug and then restarted. Got stuck on, loading please wait. Pulled the plug again, disconnected the antenna and restarted. This time it completed startup and I was able to play recordings. Killed power, connected antenna and restart. Successful restart but no channels, no reception. Tried swapping out antenna cable, then switched with pal #2 - pal-2 worked fine, pal-1 no channels. So, pretty sure problem is in Pal #1.

Next, connected cable from pal-1 antenna-OUT to TV antenna-IN to test bypass. TV gets all channels. Pal-1 nothing.

I also created two manual times, at the same time, to activate both tuners. Both skipped, failure to start - so I believe both tuners died or the signal is not getting to them.

Then I made what may be the fatal mistake. I have followed this thread from the start which is how I knew to disconnect the antenna to get out of the "loading please wait" screen. I also recall reading that the pal needs at least one channel stored to startup. So, the first time I thought about doing a factory reset - I did not do it.

Unfortunately, after trying everything else, I was going through the menus looking for anomalies, saw Factory Defaults and thought, I tried everything else. Has soon as I pressed, yes - I remembered the one channel thing - but too late. With no reception, it could not get past the - point antenna/continue screen - so I pulled the plug. Now when plugged-in, nothing, a green light but nothing else. No loading please wait, no menu, no access to recordings.

The fan does run and the pal was not hot when this happened. I had opened, cleaned and setup an external HD in January 2013.

I got this pal in January 2009, from Dish, the only option then. It has been updated with F202, 206, 207 and finally F208 since July 2009.

If there is anything else I can try please let me know. I snapped-off the tabs when I removed the HD so opening the case will be easy.
post #17526 of 18096
Quote:
Originally Posted by dkreichen1968 View Post

Ditto here on the Colorado front range. Time and guide is suddenly off by one hour. I did a factory reset, and it came up with the same thing. When was the last time Congress changed the start and end of DST? Was it since the pal DVR was developed?

The current DST rules have been in effect since 2007, so it pre-dates the DTVpal DVR.

I don't think that matters as it gets it's info from the System Time Table in PSIP. Take a look at slides 22 to 31 (pages 11 to 16) of http://www.bitrouter.com/pdf/tutorial-psip.pdf - particularly slide 28.

There's 3 fields DS_Status (should be 1 right now), DS_hour, and DS_day. The later two fields allow re-transition times and post-transition fields to link up properly assuming the software's written properly (which I think is the problem here rolleyes.gif)

Up until a few days ago, stations should have been using DS Status: 1 DS Day of Month: 0 DS Hour: 0.
However, since we fall back at 2am on Sunday November 3, some stations are now using DS Status: 1 DS Day of Month: 3 DS Hour: 2

The day of month (3) refers to November 3 since we are now past October 3 - note there is no "DS Month" field so the month is inferred. I am reasonable sure there's an edge case in the DTVPal software that incorrectly interpreted it to mean October 3. mad.gif In my case, the clock self-corrected at some point (possibly October 4th) but then another bug followed - the timers did NOT self-correct so I had to do them all over again. eek.gif
post #17527 of 18096
Quote:
Originally Posted by el gran chico View Post

In my case, the clock self-corrected at some point (possibly October 4th) but then another bug followed - the timers did NOT self-correct so I had to do them all over again. eek.gif
Timers set the night before for 1:00 AM and 3:00 AM on the 3rd recorded correctly. The national news (6:30PM), a daily timer was off one hour and the title was wrong. The next day everything was correct again.

On the diagnostics screen the line titled NEXT now shows a time of 06:00:00. I'm in the eastern time zone. Question to anyone in one of the other zones -- what are you seeing on your diagnostic screen? (JBrandt are you central?)
post #17528 of 18096
Quote:
Originally Posted by el gran chico View Post

The day of month (3) refers to November 3 since we are now past October 3 - note there is no "DS Month" field so the month is inferred. I am reasonable sure there's an edge case in the DTVPal software that incorrectly interpreted it to mean October 3. mad.gif In my case, the clock self-corrected at some point (possibly October 4th) but then another bug followed - the timers did NOT self-correct so I had to do them all over again. eek.gif

This is not a bug in the DTVPal firmware but a problem with the operation of the TV stations.

When the DS_day_of_month value in the system time table matches the current day of the month, it is time to do the DST change dance. The problem is that the manufacturer of the PSIP hardware (Trivini) is certain that doing this on 3 October when the change is on 3 November is correct. It isn't. The ATSC standard A/65 that controls this was recently revised to make it a little clearer that it should happen a day later.

I noticed that the local stations that didn't have time errors on 3 October were using bogus settings of DS_day_month = 27. This tells me that the station can control the settings for the date of the transition but not the date when the settings are pushed out to the PSIP data. If you tell it that the transition is 3 November then it is going to update DS_day_of_month on 3 October.
post #17529 of 18096
Quote:
Originally Posted by schultdw View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by el gran chico View Post

The day of month (3) refers to November 3 since we are now past October 3 - note there is no "DS Month" field so the month is inferred. I am reasonable sure there's an edge case in the DTVPal software that incorrectly interpreted it to mean October 3. mad.gif In my case, the clock self-corrected at some point (possibly October 4th) but then another bug followed - the timers did NOT self-correct so I had to do them all over again. eek.gif

This is not a bug in the DTVPal firmware but a problem with the operation of the TV stations.

When the DS_day_of_month value in the system time table matches the current day of the month, it is time to do the DST change dance. The problem is that the manufacturer of the PSIP hardware (Trivini) is certain that doing this on 3 October when the change is on 3 November is correct. It isn't. The ATSC standard A/65 that controls this was recently revised to make it a little clearer that it should happen a day later.

I noticed that the local stations that didn't have time errors on 3 October were using bogus settings of DS_day_month = 27. This tells me that the station can control the settings for the date of the transition but not the date when the settings are pushed out to the PSIP data. If you tell it that the transition is 3 November then it is going to update DS_day_of_month on 3 October.
I wonder if other DVRs and recorders had this issue too.
post #17530 of 18096
Due to the nature of hardware becoming obsolete so quickly, I'd like opinions on this hard drive as a 1TB replacement drive for my CM-7000

Western Digital WD AV-GP WD10EURX 1TB IntelliPower 64MB Cache SATA 6.0Gb/s 3.5" Internal Hard Drive Bare

Are there better choices out there?
post #17531 of 18096
Quote:
Originally Posted by mike734 View Post

Due to the nature of hardware becoming obsolete so quickly, I'd like opinions on this hard drive as a 1TB replacement drive for my CM-7000

Western Digital WD AV-GP WD10EURX 1TB IntelliPower 64MB Cache SATA 6.0Gb/s 3.5" Internal Hard Drive Bare

Are there better choices out there?
I do not know if there is a better choice - but I have two of these running with no problems for many months - also easy instal - put it in turn it on and it runs.
Bernieoc
post #17532 of 18096
Quote:
Originally Posted by golinux View Post

I also did a double reset a few days ago. Right after the clock was fine but by evening was running several minutes fast. Missed the ends of several shows. frown.gif Did another double reset and clock was still off so for now it's manual time set. Austin area BTW if anyone else is having this problem.

After a lockup during a trick play function and a soft reset, the clock seems to be working properly. In fact, now it's a bit slow! It seems PSIP info is not a high priority for my local stations. At least for the moment, all is well . . . until the time change cometh . . .
post #17533 of 18096
Mine has been running about 2 1/2 minutes fast. Resets have proved ineffective. I may have to go manual as well. I'm guessing somebody's clock is off that the unit is locking onto and resetting. Glad to know I'm not the only one having this issue. Maybe we should file a class-action suit against TV Guide for cancelling their service. I'm sure we could get some Pioneer DVD Recorder owners in on it too! ;-)
post #17534 of 18096
Quote:
Originally Posted by yhtomitb View Post

... Maybe we should file a class-action suit against TV Guide for cancelling their service. I'm sure we could get some Pioneer DVD Recorder owners in on it too! ;-)
TV Guide didn't do it. Rovi did that IIRC.
post #17535 of 18096
Quote:
Originally Posted by phildaant View Post

TV Guide didn't do it. Rovi did that IIRC.

So let's file against them. They should have just found a way to start charging for it. Then I could have just paid a subscription fee to continue using it.
post #17536 of 18096
My clock is off 1minute 45 minutes fast. Federal law says they have to be less than 1 second I believe but I guess none of them care thinking
nobody will take the time to report them. Lets hope the time change will right the ship.
post #17537 of 18096
Quote:
Originally Posted by yhtomitb View Post

They should have just found a way to start charging for it. Then I could have just paid a subscription fee to continue using it.

That's called a TiVo. wink.gif
Quote:
Originally Posted by FRANK43 View Post

My clock is off 1minute 45 minutes fast. Federal law says they have to be less than 1 second I believe but I guess none of them care thinking nobody will take the time to report them. Lets hope the time change will right the ship.

Even if somebody reports them, it doesn't mean the FCC has the money or manpower to force negligent stations into compliance.
post #17538 of 18096
On my 7000PAL, the PSIP guide has been off by an hour on the CBC channel (national broadcaster) for well over a month.

Just to make matters worse, living out here in Newfoundland, there is not even an option for the correct time zone (1.5 hours ahead of eastern time) and with the screw up in the guide, now the time has to be set for 2.5 hours behind local time! The same one hour guide difference is noticed on a 24 inch Samsung LCD I have in the kitchen, but at least the time can be set for the local zone and is just off by an hour (unless I reset the clock by an hour). My SONY LCD in the living room does not have a guide option, but it shows the correct program title at the correct time. The only other local broadcaster does not provide a guide, just a time block with CJON-TV listed.

Fortunately I do not record programs very often, but it could get interesting to translate the local times to the guide times to get the correct programs......

phannon
post #17539 of 18096
Quote:
Originally Posted by yhtomitb View Post

So let's file against them.

So IF, you even could find a lawyer that would take the case. And if you did, other than putting 90% of any award given in a class action lawsuit to the lawyers, and even if won, while still not legally making or forcing Rovi do anything to bring it back. Just exactly what good do you think filing a lawsuit against them would do you?
post #17540 of 18096
Quote:
Originally Posted by phannon View Post

On my 7000PAL, the PSIP guide has been off by an hour on the CBC channel (national broadcaster) for well over a month.

Just to make matters worse, living out here in Newfoundland, there is not even an option for the correct time zone (1.5 hours ahead of eastern time) and with the screw up in the guide, now the time has to be set for 2.5 hours behind local time! The same one hour guide difference is noticed on a 24 inch Samsung LCD I have in the kitchen, but at least the time can be set for the local zone and is just off by an hour (unless I reset the clock by an hour). My SONY LCD in the living room does not have a guide option, but it shows the correct program title at the correct time. The only other local broadcaster does not provide a guide, just a time block with CJON-TV listed.

Fortunately I do not record programs very often, but it could get interesting to translate the local times to the guide times to get the correct programs......

phannon

In your situation your best bet is to set your clock manually and then set scheduled recordings manually by date, time and channel just like we used to do in the old VCR days. If you do that (IMHO) you should be all set as far as your recordings go. Of course the program titles of your recordings may not be correct (but you will record the correct programs) and you will have to adjust/compensate regularly for the 8-seconds-per-day time gain of the DVR's manual clock.
post #17541 of 18096
Quote:
Originally Posted by mike734 View Post

Due to the nature of hardware becoming obsolete so quickly, I'd like opinions on this hard drive as a 1TB replacement drive for my CM-7000

Western Digital WD AV-GP WD10EURX 1TB IntelliPower 64MB Cache SATA 6.0Gb/s 3.5" Internal Hard Drive Bare

Are there better choices out there?

works with mine with no issues. I did have to reformat after two weeks however.
post #17542 of 18096
Quote:
Originally Posted by phannon View Post

On my 7000PAL, the PSIP guide has been off by an hour on the CBC channel (national broadcaster) for well over a month.

Just to make matters worse, living out here in Newfoundland, there is not even an option for the correct time zone (1.5 hours ahead of eastern time) and with the screw up in the guide, now the time has to be set for 2.5 hours behind local time! The same one hour guide difference is noticed on a 24 inch Samsung LCD I have in the kitchen, but at least the time can be set for the local zone and is just off by an hour (unless I reset the clock by an hour). My SONY LCD in the living room does not have a guide option, but it shows the correct program title at the correct time. The only other local broadcaster does not provide a guide, just a time block with CJON-TV listed.

Fortunately I do not record programs very often, but it could get interesting to translate the local times to the guide times to get the correct programs......

phannon
With all due respect I thought your area was only 1/2 hr.ahead of Eastern time. ( I used to watch CBC back in the 80's on a 3 meter C band dish )

You might want to set your time manually and get your tv listings from the Internet that lists your proper time zone........( Atlantic time zone ? )

I didn't know you folks were using ATSC standards,eh ?wink.gif
post #17543 of 18096
The countries using ATSC include the United States, Canada, Mexico, and South Korea, among others. If you live close enough to the Canadian/US border, you can potentially receive both countries' stations from either side with the same tuner.
post #17544 of 18096
Harleyjoe43

Greetings:

We are 1/2 hour ahead of Atlantic time (even this is not an option on the 7000), 1.5 hours ahead of Eastern.......The CBC lists it's program times in terms of the hour (programming delayed as necessary for the associated time zone) for all the other time zones across the country with a "30 min later in NL" note added......common saying out here in God's country.....the world will end at 10:00, half an hour later in Newfoundland!!

The few times I have recorded, I did successfully use the unit in the old style "VCR timer" mode. I do not record very much, as I would rather buy Blu ray or DVD versions of TV shows but wanted to have the option of recording...just in case.

I recently bought a digital indoor / outdoor thermometer that shows amongst other data, sunrise and sunset times. During the set up, one has to enter your Canadian city...I believe all the capitol cities and some others are listed but it stops at Halifax, no option for this area! It is not the first time we have seen this in this area on many electronic items. Hopefully if the new Channel Master (K77??) becomes available it will include the full array of time zones.

Cheers,
phannon
post #17545 of 18096
Phildaant, did you ever find a solution for connecting headphones to the Pal?

The RCA audio outputs are line level and I suspect they wouldn't have anywhere near enough "oomph" for headphones. But Best Buy sells a set of Axis brand amplified speakers with a headphone jack for $8.99. (You'd also need an adapter to combine the Pal's two RCA outputs into a single stereo phone jack, but that should only cost a few bucks.)

That's the cheapest alternative I found. Oddly, it seems to be hard to find just a cheap audio amplifier without the speakers. I did find a headphone amp (like radio hosts use) online for $20. Of course, you'd just use the "monitor" input (and the same adapter) but not the microphone input or output. But the speakers are cheaper, would do the job just as well, and there's probably a Best Buy nearby.

Pete-N2, I could swear I've recorded back-to-back shows on one channel, even if there's padding that makes the recordings overlap, while simultaneously recording another channel. Maybe I'm misremembering, but the Pal seemed to just write the output from one tuner to both recordings during the overlap. (Of course, if the back-to-back shows are on different channels, then two tuners are needed during the overlap, so a third channel conflicts unless you eliminate the padding.) Note: Even if the Pal does this, it isn't true of all DVRs. For instance, Windows Media Center (PC software that has DVR capability) will simply ignore padding on back-to-back recordings of one channel (unless you use at least 10 minutes of padding, in which case it uses two tuners).

But as others mentioned, there are some firmware bugs that can prevent back-to-back recordings from working reliably. Last Saturday, the second of a pair of back-to-back timers mysteriously changed itself from 6:30-7:00 AM to 6:30-7:00 PM! So my Pal missed the second show that day. (Nor did it record anything at 6:30 PM. So, fearing possible corruption, I deleted the timer and will re-enter it next Friday evening when the 30-minute show reappears in the guide.)
post #17546 of 18096
Quote:
Originally Posted by phannon View Post

Harleyjoe43

Greetings:

We are 1/2 hour ahead of Atlantic time (even this is not an option on the 7000), 1.5 hours ahead of Eastern.......The CBC lists it's program times in terms of the hour (programming delayed as necessary for the associated time zone) for all the other time zones across the country with a "30 min later in NL" note added......common saying out here in God's country.....the world will end at 10:00, half an hour later in Newfoundland!!

The few times I have recorded, I did successfully use the unit in the old style "VCR timer" mode. I do not record very much, as I would rather buy Blu ray or DVD versions of TV shows but wanted to have the option of recording...just in case.

I recently bought a digital indoor / outdoor thermometer that shows amongst other data, sunrise and sunset times. During the set up, one has to enter your Canadian city...I believe all the capitol cities and some others are listed but it stops at Halifax, no option for this area! It is not the first time we have seen this in this area on many electronic items. Hopefully if the new Channel Master (K77??) becomes available it will include the full array of time zones.

Cheers,
phannon

My sympathies. Windows includes the Newfoundland time zone, but it seems to be neglected by almost everything else, even the occasional non-US-centric product that includes Atlantic time. Ironically the Pal's firmware was developed in Britain - you'd think they'd have been aware of the existence of non-US time zones.

With the Pal, I'd probably just go with Eastern (the closest zone), do the double boot, and live with the "90-minute off" clock and guide times. Remember, all times in PSIP data are actually GMT. The only effect of the time zone setting is to display them in your local time. So with Eastern, both the guide and the clock would be off by the same 90 minutes, and you could still schedule recordings with the guide. Just keep the 90-minute offset in mind when scheduling recordings manually.
post #17547 of 18096
Quote:
Originally Posted by JHBrandt View Post

Pete-N2, I could swear I've recorded back-to-back shows on one channel, even if there's padding that makes the recordings overlap, while simultaneously recording another channel. Maybe I'm misremembering, but the Pal seemed to just write the output from one tuner to both recordings during the overlap. (Of course, if the back-to-back shows are on different channels, then two tuners are needed during the overlap, so a third channel conflicts unless you eliminate the padding.)

Maybe the DTVPal is smarter than I think. As I noted I have not been in that situation yet and have not had a problem. I have read in Post One that back-to-back recordings can be a problem.

I assume you are in the Central Time Zone. When you have a chance please check the diagnostics screen and see what the entry for "NEXT" is. My DTVPAL (EDT) says NEXT: 6:00:00 03/11/2013 (+0). SAVE is +3600.
post #17548 of 18096
My experiences with recording successive events on one channel while also recording something on another channel are that the unit drops the padding where the two events on the same channel meet, misses a few seconds (or at least makes them unavailable for playback) during the transition just as if the events had been scheduled with no padding, and records the event on the other channel straight through.
post #17549 of 18096
Well, I may have just misremembered.

Edit: Come to think of it, I bet it works like Dattier reports. All I remember for sure is that you can do back-to-back recordings (with padding specified) on one channel while also recording another channel. I don't actually remember if it honored the padding, since all I cared about was getting my recordings.

I do know it honors the padding if there's not a simultaneous recording on another channel. But in that case, it could be using both tuners.

I'm now thinking the Pal is smarter than WMC, but not as smart as I originally thought: If there's no conflicting recording, the Pal honors the padding - but by using both tuners. But if there is a conflict, it drops the padding. (WMC always drops the padding unless you request at least 10 minutes of padding, in which case it always uses two tuners.)

If so, that would explain why the bug described in post #1 exists: if a single recording is followed by two consecutive recordings, the Pal thinks there's no conflict, and so tries to honor the padding. But when the two consecutive recordings start, due to the padding there actually is a conflict, so one of the two recordings can't start.

I'll try some experiments this weekend and see if it works like I originally thought or like Dattier reports. Also, tonight I'll try to remember to check my diagnostic screen and will report back once I do.
Edited by JHBrandt - 10/16/13 at 11:26am
post #17550 of 18096
It's very simple. The PALDVR only has 2 Tuners and only 2 can be in use at once. People need to consider the start and stop times of programming and they should see that they need to change start and stop times so there is NO conflict when they are trying to record a show immediately after the 2 tuners are finished. It will never work unless the times are player with. It requires too much manipulation to be worth it. Just buy another PALDVR or an IVIEW 3500 for $40 and voila .....you can record 3 shows at once.

That's why I own 2 PALDVRS and 2 IVIEW 3500s. I can record 6 shows at once.
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