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The Official AVS Dish DTVPal DVR Topic! - Page 590

post #17671 of 18096
Quote:
Originally Posted by ed_in_tx View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by JHBrandt View Post

... it's not as clear why it would use the deleted ones in the time calculation. Maybe the designers' thinking was, the more stations used, the more likely any errors are to average out to a reasonably accurate time. But that doesn't seem to be working out in your case.
Perhaps the designers didn't think of or had never heard of temperature inversion and tropospheric ducting or sporadic E skip phenomenon with broadcast TV that cause occasional reception of far off distant stations that need to be cleared out of memory sometimes to make their averaging clock work. Hard to figure!
Keep in mind the Pal was developed in Britain using lab equipment to simulate North American transmitters (since Britain doesn't use 8VSB modulation). I'm sure Britain gets tropo from Europe from time to time, but the Pal's designers would never have encountered it in the lab. In Frank's case, if TV Fool's listings are to be believed, tropo seems to have pulled in at least one station from well over 100 miles away!

Nevertheless, the Pal does seem to make some effort to track how long it's been since it received a station. We know this because if a deleted station is not received for several days, the next time it does come in, it often gets added back again as if it had never been seen before (even though it apparently remains in the PSIP element list, often with the value 0x4404 shown next to the TSID). That's why post #1 suggests hiding these stations via the parental controls rather than deleting them.

It would be logical for the Pal to exclude 0x4404 stations (whether deleted or hidden) from its time calculations, but no one but the designers know for sure whether it actually does so.
post #17672 of 18096
Quote:
Originally Posted by JHBrandt View Post

Thanks, that helps. Your antenna is very interesting. I'd never heard of a Yagi that was user-extensible before!

On the TV Fool page, if you click "only digital" (since the Pal can only receive digital stations), you'll see that all but one of your nearby stations are US stations. Ten of the US stations, and the one Mexican station, are very close by, and all to your SSW. No wonder you can do a 4-way split and still have a strong signal!

That's 11 of your 16 original elements. The other five are much weaker and in other directions, so they probably come in only sporadically. Your factory defaults reset probably erased those, at least for the time being; although they'll probably come back eventually.

Since the Mexican station is across the border, it's weaker than the 10 closest US stations, but it's still quite strong. Ironically, your antenna may be too good for your location. At your location you could probably take off every bow-tie (making it a simple dipole) and it would still get a strong signal. Or you could use a small, inexpensive "leaf" antenna (if you can find one that isn't overpriced). If you intentionally point your antenna the "wrong" way, that might weaken the signals enough to "lose" the Mexican station, while still getting the 5 US stations that you want. You could also replace the 4-way splitter with an 8-way splitter to weaken the signals a bit more.

BTW, if you click "only digital" in the "pending applications included" you'll see a couple more US and a couple more Mexican stations appear. Those could appear on your Pal soon, which could make your clock more accurate (or less, if you're unlucky).

The Antenna I bought in Germany about 30 years ago. It comes completely apart. The back reflector and the indidual rods with holes for the bowties can be made as long as wanted. The bowties just snap in place. I took off the 14 I had on and only left the the first one that has the box for the RF connector. I lost a few percentage points on each station but still pulled in 44 including I guess the 70 and 91 locals. I still have 5 PSIP and 16 elements. It is in my attic and I have line of site to all local antennas on the mountain about 9 miles away.

I got tired after taking off a few at a time and climbing back up and down. Tomorrow I'll try adding a splitter at the antenna end and see what happens then try really moving it off direction. Right now it is pointing at the north most KFOX (2829).

I do have an old radio shack like this lying in the attic. http://www.solidsignal.com/pview.asp?mc=03&p=CM-3016&d=Channel-Master-CM3016-Suburban-Advantage-TV-Antenna-%28CM3016%29&c=TV%20Antennas&sku= would it be more directional? or still be to strong and not directional enough
post #17673 of 18096
Both antennas are probably about the same. Both are better than you need, at least according to your TV Fool plot. And since the Mexican stations are in the same direction as the ones you want, making the antenna more directional won't help. In fact, more directional antennas also have higher gain, which we now know is what we don't want! It was a nice idea, but no banana frown.gif

We could probably be more help if you posted the TSIDs and time errors of all 16 elements. Also, don't know if this will help or not, but post the hex numbers that look like 0x2203, 0x4404, etc. That might give us a clue which ones are only coming in overnight.

By the way, a 2-way splitter will weaken the signal about 3.5 or 4 dB (i.e., cut it by a bit more than half). If you have several, you can daisy-chain them to progressively weaken the signal until some of the unwanted stations start to drop off. You want to find a compromise where some of the weakest ones are completely gone, but the five you want are still OK.
post #17674 of 18096
Quote:
Originally Posted by JHBrandt View Post

Both antennas are probably about the same. Both are better than you need, at least according to your TV Fool plot. And since the Mexican stations are in the same direction as the ones you want, making the antenna more directional won't help. In fact, more directional antennas also have higher gain, which we now know is what we don't want! It was a nice idea, but no banana frown.gif

We could probably be more help if you posted the TSIDs and time errors of all 16 elements. Also, don't know if this will help or not, but post the hex numbers that look like 0x2203, 0x4404, etc. That might give us a clue which ones are only coming in overnight.

By the way, a 2-way splitter will weaken the signal about 3.5 or 4 dB (i.e., cut it by a bit more than half). If you have several, you can daisy-chain them to progressively weaken the signal until some of the unwanted stations start to drop off. You want to find a compromise where some of the weakest ones are completely gone, but the five you want are still OK.

Will do ! I have to do this stuff during non watching time. I'm 70 and retired, so I have lots of watching times and internet time. LOL The elements and all stations come in during the intitial scan after Factory reboot. I don't get any more after that.
post #17675 of 18096
OK. Since they all came in during the initial scan, there's probably no need for the hex numbers. Just post the TSIDs and time offsets like you did for the 5 you watch.

It seems you're picking up a few stations that aren't on the TV Fool plot. Perhaps some of the stations TV Fool shows as "pending applications" are already broadcasting. But if the stations are sending their true TSIDs, we can figure them out.
post #17676 of 18096
Quote:
Originally Posted by JHBrandt View Post

OK. Since they all came in during the initial scan, there's probably no need for the hex numbers. Just post the TSIDs and time offsets like you did for the 5 you watch.

It seems you're picking up a few stations that aren't on the TV Fool plot. Perhaps some of the stations TV Fool shows as "pending applications" are already broadcasting. But if the stations are sending their true TSIDs, we can figure them out.

OK, All hex are 0x4404. Here is the diagnostics list in the order as it appears.

PSIP (5), state::0x4404, elements 16
-ident: 2835= 15/11/2013 (+192710)
" 30001= 14/11/2013 (+71455)
" 2057= 13/11/2013 (+98)
" 1= " (+126)
" 20504= " (-240)
" 10291= " (-11)
" 3= 30/01/2006 (-245731035)
" 10013= 15/11/2013 (+164822)
" 20502= 13/11/2013 (-240)
" 20501= " (-240)
" 2831 = 15/11/2013 (+192709)
" 2821= 13/11/2013 (+209)
" 2829= " (+282)
" 2827= " (+101)
" 2825= " (+127)
" 2823= " (-205)

Some weird dates that why I included them. I do have the remainder of the diagnostic list if you want and a list of all the stations and call letters that appear in the guide.
Edited by FRANK43 - 11/14/13 at 9:06am
post #17677 of 18096
it would be easy for you and us (and would eliminate mistyping) if you could make snapshots of the diag screens
post #17678 of 18096
Quote:
Originally Posted by P Smith View Post

it would be easy for you and us (and would eliminate mistyping) if you could make snapshots of the diag screens

There are no typos,
post #17679 of 18096
Quote:
Originally Posted by FRANK43 View Post

There are no typos,
no willing to make snapshots ?
post #17680 of 18096
Quote:
Originally Posted by P Smith View Post

no willing to make snapshots ?

Could you explain to me how I do that?, in case JH needs it.
post #17681 of 18096
I did use digital camera or video-capture USB stick
post #17682 of 18096
Quote:
Originally Posted by FRANK43 View Post

OK, All hex are 0x4404. Here is the diagnostics list in the order as it appears.

PSIP (5), state::0x4404, elements 16
-ident: 2835= 15/11/2013 (+192710)
" 30001= 14/11/2013 (+71455)
" 2057= 13/11/2013 (+98)
" 1= (+126)
" 20504= (-240)
" 10291= (-11)
" 3= 30/01/2006 (-245731035)
" 10013=15/11/2013 (+164822)
" 20502= 13/11/2013 (-240)
" 20501= " (-240)
" 2831 = 15/11/2013 (+192709)
" 2821= 13/11/2013 (+209)
" 2829= " (+282)
" 2827= " (+101)
" 2825= " (+127)
" 2823= " (-205)

Some weird dates that why I included them. I do have the remainder of the diagnostic list if you want and a list of all the stations and call letters that appear in the guide.

WOW WHAT A MESS!!
Quote:
Originally Posted by FRANK43 View Post


" 1= (+126)
" 20504= (-240)
" 10291= (-11)

I assume that these 3 items should have a quote sign after the "equals" to indicate "same date as above"
post #17683 of 18096
Quote:
Originally Posted by P Smith View Post

I did use digital camera or video-capture USB stick

After I take a picture with my canon digital camera and transfer it to the computer how do I get the picture onto the forum page ?
post #17684 of 18096
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pete-N2 View Post

WOW WHAT A MESS!!
I assume that these 3 items should have a quote sign after the "equals" to indicate "same date as above"

Yes, I edited the post to reflect that. It kind of jumbles things together when when it is posted even though it is spread out more when I type it. As I mentioned in he original post I only put the dates in because some were not the same as the day I factory rebooted and did the post which was 13/11/2013
post #17685 of 18096
Quote:
Originally Posted by FRANK43 View Post

After I take a picture with my canon digital camera and transfer it to the computer how do I get the picture onto the forum page ?

 

See the Embed section of this help file on inserting pics.

post #17686 of 18096
Quote:
Originally Posted by wajo View Post

See the Embed section of this help file on inserting pics.

I don't see an IMAGE Icon when I click on "post a reply" button.
post #17687 of 18096

In the post window, there's also a MORE or LESS option at the far right top where you can expose more or less of the edit options. The image icon should be in either view.

post #17688 of 18096
Quote:
Originally Posted by FRANK43 View Post

OK, All hex are 0x4404. Here is the diagnostics list in the order as it appears.

PSIP (5), state::0x4404, elements 16
-ident: 2835= 15/11/2013 (+192710)
" 30001= 14/11/2013 (+71455)
" 2057= 13/11/2013 (+98)
" 1= " (+126)
" 20504= " (-240)
" 10291= " (-11)
" 3= 30/01/2006 (-245731035)
" 10013= 15/11/2013 (+164822)
" 20502= 13/11/2013 (-240)
" 20501= " (-240)
" 2831 = 15/11/2013 (+192709)
" 2821= 13/11/2013 (+209)
" 2829= " (+282)
" 2827= " (+101)
" 2825= " (+127)
" 2823= " (-205)

Some weird dates that why I included them. I do have the remainder of the diagnostic list if you want and a list of all the stations and call letters that appear in the guide.
Thanks. I think I can make do with this. I don't need photos.

We have eight US stations, six Mexican stations, and two stations I can't identify due to invalid TSIDs of 1 and 3 (actually, 3 is a valid TSID, but it belongs to a station in Alaska, so I'm pretty sure that's not the one you're getting!)

I've identified all eight US stations and three of the Mexican ones:
US
2057=KTDO
2821=KDBC
2823=KVIA
2825=KTSM
2827=KCOS
2829=KFOX
2831=KINT
2835=KTFN

Mex.
10013=XHCJE
20501=XEPM
20502=XHJUB

(By the way, dates on the diagnostics screen are shown in D/M/Y order, European-style. Also, dates & times are GMT, six hours ahead of CST.) As you can see, several of the stations are wildly off: KINT, KTFN, and XHCJE, as well as whichever stations are using TSIDs 3 and 30001. They're so far off they actually have the wrong date, not just the wrong time! I would expect the Pal to exclude these stations from its time calculations.

Most likely, the biggest sources of clock trouble are XEPM, XHJUB, KVIA, and whichever Mexican stations are using 10291 and 20504. These are all pulling your Pal's clock the wrong way.

Since KVIA is one of the stations you want, you'll have to contact their engineer and try to get him/her to fix the station's PSIP time. But you should be able to weaken your signal enough to lose at least some of the Mexican stations, without losing any of the ones you want.

You'll have to do another station scan. But this time, don't delete the Spanish ones right away. Instead, tune to XEPM (should be channel 32 if Trip's TSID list is right). Then you can start doing things to weaken the signal, such as adding attenuators, splitters, rotating the antenna, etc. Once XEPM is completely gone, make sure you still get the "big five." If they're all OK, you're set to do yet another station scan and recheck your diagnostic screen. TSID 20501 and probably a few others should be gone. Then do two reboots and see if your clock is more accurate.
post #17689 of 18096
Quote:
Originally Posted by JHBrandt View Post

Thanks. I think I can make do with this. I don't need photos.

We have eight US stations, six Mexican stations, and two stations I can't identify due to invalid TSIDs of 1 and 3 (actually, 3 is a valid TSID, but it belongs to a station in Alaska, so I'm pretty sure that's not the one you're getting!)

I've identified all eight US stations and three of the Mexican ones:
US
2057=KTDO
2821=KDBC
2823=KVIA
2825=KTSM
2827=KCOS
2829=KFOX
2831=KINT
2835=KTFN

Mex.
10013=XHCJE
20501=XEPM
20502=XHJUB

(By the way, dates on the diagnostics screen are shown in D/M/Y order, European-style. Also, dates & times are GMT, six hours ahead of CST.) As you can see, several of the stations are wildly off: KINT, KTFN, and XHCJE, as well as whichever stations are using TSIDs 3 and 30001. They're so far off they actually have the wrong date, not just the wrong time! I would expect the Pal to exclude these stations from its time calculations.

Most likely, the biggest sources of clock trouble are XEPM, XHJUB, KVIA, and whichever Mexican stations are using 10291 and 20504. These are all pulling your Pal's clock the wrong way.

Since KVIA is one of the stations you want, you'll have to contact their engineer and try to get him/her to fix the station's PSIP time. But you should be able to weaken your signal enough to lose at least some of the Mexican stations, without losing any of the ones you want.

You'll have to do another station scan. But this time, don't delete the Spanish ones right away. Instead, tune to XEPM (should be channel 32 if Trip's TSID list is right). Then you can start doing things to weaken the signal, such as adding attenuators, splitters, rotating the antenna, etc. Once XEPM is completely gone, make sure you still get the "big five." If they're all OK, you're set to do yet another station scan and recheck your diagnostic screen. TSID 20501 and probably a few others should be gone. Then do two reboots and see if your clock is more accurate.

Thanks, I figured you would understand and a good thing because I don't see any "more" or "less" option in the quote or post a reply window.

KVIA is the ABC station. Their antenna is only a few hundred feet from KTSM and is much taller but the signal strength is the lowest in the city. Maybe their strength will be increases when the new console is operational. I did notice this week they are not sending any PSIP guide info, just says "no information" They are and have been for more than a year upgrading to a new master consul which will among other things give them 5.1 Dolby sound. Supposed to be operational Dec 6th but we have heard promises before. I will e-mail there engineer, he has been fairly good at responding especially after I email the station manager.

I was kinda thinking channel 32-01 (XHJCI in my guide) 32-02 (XEPM) and 02-01 again (XEPM) might be a problem.

I think I might also try putting the antenna behind the heating duct work to cut the signal. This is all in a crawl space in my ranch style house but it is floored up to that duct work part. but still not that easy for me, have to do early when it is not warmed up.

I'll get back to you soon
post #17690 of 18096
Be careful with placing OTA antenna behind the heating duct - signals would be attenuated, but if there is multipath, SNR will go down and you'll get unstable signal on desired stations
post #17691 of 18096
Quote:
Originally Posted by JHBrandt View Post

Thanks. I think I can make do with this. I don't need photos.

We have eight US stations, six Mexican stations, and two stations I can't identify due to invalid TSIDs of 1 and 3 (actually, 3 is a valid TSID, but it belongs to a station in Alaska, so I'm pretty sure that's not the one you're getting!)

I've identified all eight US stations and three of the Mexican ones:
US
2057=KTDO
2821=KDBC
2823=KVIA
2825=KTSM
2827=KCOS
2829=KFOX
2831=KINT
2835=KTFN

Mex.
10013=XHCJE
20501=XEPM
20502=XHJUB

(By the way, dates on the diagnostics screen are shown in D/M/Y order, European-style. Also, dates & times are GMT, six hours ahead of CST.) As you can see, several of the stations are wildly off: KINT, KTFN, and XHCJE, as well as whichever stations are using TSIDs 3 and 30001. They're so far off they actually have the wrong date, not just the wrong time! I would expect the Pal to exclude these stations from its time calculations.

Most likely, the biggest sources of clock trouble are XEPM, XHJUB, KVIA, and whichever Mexican stations are using 10291 and 20504. These are all pulling your Pal's clock the wrong way.

Since KVIA is one of the stations you want, you'll have to contact their engineer and try to get him/her to fix the station's PSIP time. But you should be able to weaken your signal enough to lose at least some of the Mexican stations, without losing any of the ones you want.

You'll have to do another station scan. But this time, don't delete the Spanish ones right away. Instead, tune to XEPM (should be channel 32 if Trip's TSID list is right). Then you can start doing things to weaken the signal, such as adding attenuators, splitters, rotating the antenna, etc. Once XEPM is completely gone, make sure you still get the "big five." If they're all OK, you're set to do yet another station scan and recheck your diagnostic screen. TSID 20501 and probably a few others should be gone. Then do two reboots and see if your clock is more accurate.

KVIA had the guide data back late this morning. I emailed the engineer yesterday afternoon. I moved the antenna and laid it flat on the floor about 3 feet away from the peak mounting. Lost signal to 02 xepm, 20, 32-01 xhjci and -02 xepm, 56-01 xhjub. left all stations in guide had pretty good time. disconnected splitter, a 3 way Time Warner, not marked how many db and 56 came back time was off 1minute 40 seconds. Hooked up a TW 4 way -7db, also has a -3 db. I lost all of the above plus 11-01 xhcje and11-02 proy 40 from the guide. Now have 32 stations, elements 10 and guide clock is 15 seconds early. I have an atomic clock. Did not do a 2x soft boot. Been OK for 2 hours. If this holds I will be a happy camper.

I think a lot of this problem started when even the Mexican stations started going gradually to digital. The were not scanned when analog.

For a few seconds, my reply window had the funny faces on the right side and the "more" and the options across the top. Then it went away. weird!!
post #17692 of 18096
Good. Sounds like getting rid of XEPM and XHJUB helped your clock a lot. Hopefully KVIA has their PSIP issues fixed now, including the time. You should be OK unless your clock came "unlocked" during all that; you'll know if it drifts about a minute over the next week. But if that happens, 2 soft boots should fix it for good.

Those 3-way splitters can be tricky. A lot of them are "unbalanced;" just two 2-way splitters combined into one box so you'd typically have one -3.5dB output and two -7dB outputs. Others are "balanced" and each output is -5.5dB. You can't always tell by looking.

This forum has been really flaky lately. I see you triple-posted wink.gif and I'd been having similar problems. Using Firefox, if I click the "link" button, I can key the URL in, but the box won't go away, and I'm forced to refresh and lose everything I typed. I'm getting into the habit of clicking "preview;" from there everything seems to work better.
post #17693 of 18096
Quote:
Originally Posted by JHBrandt View Post

Good. Sounds like getting rid of XEPM and XHJUB helped your clock a lot. Hopefully KVIA has their PSIP issues fixed now, including the time. You should be OK unless your clock came "unlocked" during all that; you'll know if it drifts about a minute over the next week. But if that happens, 2 soft boots should fix it for good.

Those 3-way splitters can be tricky. A lot of them are "unbalanced;" just two 2-way splitters combined into one box so you'd typically have one -3.5dB output and two -7dB outputs. Others are "balanced" and each output is -5.5dB. You can't always tell by looking.

This forum has been really flaky lately. I see you triple-posted wink.gif and I'd been having similar problems. Using Firefox, if I click the "link" button, I can key the URL in, but the box won't go away, and I'm forced to refresh and lose everything I typed. I'm getting into the habit of clicking "preview;" from there everything seems to work better.

When I clicked on "submit" nothing happened in the reply window. Then I did the "quote" window. I just deleted the extra posts.

The first TW splitter was a 2 way no markings the second was a 3 way and marked and I used the -7.5. TheTW are 5-1000 ghz and the 4 way GE (walmart) splitter I have at the TV, PAL end is a 5-2500. So I am probably loosing something. If this works I would like to find just a -7.5db or variable one. Don't know if such a thing is made.
post #17694 of 18096
Variable attenuator? There's this one: http://www.solidsignal.com/pview.asp?p=1296f&d=antennas-direct-20db-variable-attenuator-for-vhf-uhf-hd-off-air-reception-1296f&sku=853748001293

For a fixed attenuator, this one is -8 dB, which is very close to the -7.5 dB of your splitter: http://www.summitsource.com/eagle-attenuator-inline-2150-return-loss-type-coaxial-female-male-block-fixed-gauge-spring-steel-nickle-plated-line-coupler-connector-pack-p-12039.html

I haven't used either of these, but I have bought other things from both of the above companies.
post #17695 of 18096
Quote:
Originally Posted by JHBrandt View Post

Variable attenuator? There's this one: http://www.solidsignal.com/pview.asp?p=1296f&d=antennas-direct-20db-variable-attenuator-for-vhf-uhf-hd-off-air-reception-1296f&sku=853748001293

For a fixed attenuator, this one is -8 dB, which is very close to the -7.5 dB of your splitter: http://www.summitsource.com/eagle-attenuator-inline-2150-return-loss-type-coaxial-female-male-block-fixed-gauge-spring-steel-nickle-plated-line-coupler-connector-pack-p-12039.html

I haven't used either of these, but I have bought other things from both of the above companies.

Thanks, I wonder how many db loss there is with a 300 to 75 ohm matching transformer. I just have a piece of RG6 coax soldered onto the antenna. I have a few of them lying arround
post #17696 of 18096
Quote:
Originally Posted by FRANK43 View Post

Thanks, I wonder how many db loss there is with a 300 to 75 ohm matching transformer. I just have a piece of RG6 coax soldered onto the antenna. I have a few of them lying arround

Connect to that puppy with some nice 300 ohm flat lead. That should knock your signal down...
post #17697 of 18096
Quote:
Originally Posted by rahanner View Post

I don't think this has anything to do with the disk drive. The first thing I did when I had the problem was put the original disk drive back in the PAL; it didn't make any difference. The key step is to stop the normal boot by inducing an error condition so the box will respond to the remote, then you can reset to factory defaults. I finally disconnected both the antenna and the disk drive, but still had to reboot twice to get there. After I got it going I then tried both disk drives and they both work. The whole problem is yet another case of bad software.

Quote:
Originally Posted by homer86 View Post

Thank you. I will give this a try when I get a chance and report back.

I did what rahanner suggested, disconnecting the antenna and the HD, and after 2 reboots, my Pal started responding to the remote again. Thank you, rahanner,.
post #17698 of 18096
Quote:
Originally Posted by FRANK43 View Post

Thanks, I wonder how many db loss there is with a 300 to 75 ohm matching transformer. I just have a piece of RG6 coax soldered onto the antenna. I have a few of them lying arround

Shouldn't be much; in fact, if the antenna was designed for one (as most are), using one would most likely increase your signal.
post #17699 of 18096
Quote:
Originally Posted by JHBrandt View Post

Shouldn't be much; in fact, if the antenna was designed for one (as most are), using one would most likely increase your signal.

I just have a short piece of rg6 soldered on the board in the box which has the bowties connect to.

So far everything is working good. Time is only 10 seconds off.

WOW I just noticed I have the smiley faces and menu in the reply screen.
post #17700 of 18096
I am out of room on my DTV Pal,, and was thinking of hooking up my extra one,, but, will I lose all my recordings on my original Pal? My notes say " If you reformat the HD, you will lose all your recordings"... will I have to reformat the Pal when I hook up the first DVR again? I know you don't lose recordings from just having it unplugged for extended times,,, but when I reconnect it to the antenna, will that cause me to lose my recordings?
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