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Definitive Technology Mythos Series Thread - Page 44

post #1291 of 5540
Quote:
Originally Posted by Macfan424 View Post

Conventional wisdom here would be to match the drivers. In other words, go for the Ones all around. I agree with that concept in theory, but fiscal realities must be addressed in the real world. Unfortunately, compromises have to be accepted by most of us.

All the Mythos speakers are voice matched, and blend very well together. The Fives would certainly sound good in your proposed setup. They lack some of the fullness of the Ones, and could run out of steam trying to keep up if played very loudly in large rooms, but this would barely be noticeable in "normal" use, especially, as surrounds.

Given the choice you pose, I'd go with the Fives and the better sub. Either approach entails compromises, but I think you'd find a weaker sub more disappointing in the long run than the Fives vs Ones in the rear.

I expect there will be disagreement posted, though.


Great, thanks for your opinion. I was leaning towards what you are saying because it does make sense to not downgrade on the sub. Also, since the Mythos speakers are voiced match, it shouldn't make a major difference. Also, you other convincing argument is that they are only used as surround speakers. I'll probably go with the fives for the rears. I'll post my review of the setup as soon as I get them. Also, if anyone has an opinion on what receiver is good in the 500-600 range (i was thinking some onkyo receivers), please let me know. Thanks.
post #1292 of 5540
Quote:
Originally Posted by mr7perfect View Post

...Also, if anyone has an opinion on what receiver is good in the 500-600 range (i was thinking some onkyo receivers), please let me know. Thanks.

I'm a Pioneer Elite guy, so I'd suggest the VSX-21. But really, receivers are very competitive, and at a given price point, Pioneer Elite, Denon, Yamaha and Onkyo all offer worthy options. You won't go wrong with any of those (or several others). You just have to decide which feature set you prefer.
post #1293 of 5540
Quote:
Originally Posted by mr7perfect View Post

Great, thanks for your opinion. I was leaning towards what you are saying because it does make sense to not downgrade on the sub. Also, since the Mythos speakers are voiced match, it shouldn't make a major difference. Also, you other convincing argument is that they are only used as surround speakers. I'll probably go with the fives for the rears. I'll post my review of the setup as soon as I get them. Also, if anyone has an opinion on what receiver is good in the 500-600 range (i was thinking some onkyo receivers), please let me know. Thanks.

I've been looking at receivers to match the Mythos range and would probably choose the Pioneer 919 for <400 or Denon 2310 for <600, mainly due to the Audyssey functions each of them provide at their respective price ranges. You can use the chat function at 6ave or onecall or some other e-retailer ask them if they will give you the 2310 for 549 + shipping, most will agree to do it.
post #1294 of 5540
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mantis10 View Post

Set the M1's to small, they tend to sound better there. Cross them over at 60hz if you can by themselves. I don't know what center and rears ou have so 60 might not work if it's the only small Crossover point that can be set. if so then go 80hz and allow the sub to do the bottom end. You will be surprised on the new found clarity you now have. I have set up the M1's both ways and found this to be the best way for double duty.

Mantis,

Thanks for the feedback...
I'm using M4's as my rear surrounds and surround backs. I have an HSU VTF3-MK3 subwoofer and a Pioneer Elite SC-27 receiver. My receiver will let me set the front speakers to small but only gives me a crossover point of 50 Hz on the low end. The step up is 80 Hz (no option for 60Hz). I assume that I should set the crossover point to 50 Hz on my receiver and set the crossover to "in" on my subwoofer with the frequency at 50 Hz. I can then run MACC (Audyssey knockoff) on the receiver to set the sub/speaker levels. Please forgive my ignorance, but does that sound like the right approach to you?
post #1295 of 5540
Quote:
Originally Posted by rnrn View Post

I've been looking at receivers to match the Mythos range and would probably choose the Pioneer 919 for <400 or Denon 2310 for <600, mainly due to the Audyssey functions each of them provide at their respective price ranges. You can use the chat function at 6ave or onecall or some other e-retailer ask them if they will give you the 2310 for 549 + shipping, most will agree to do it.

+1 2310, I have the 4310 and the sound is great with the Mythos.
post #1296 of 5540
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mantis10 View Post

I do agree with you that the STS pretty much destroy the Mythos 1's in every way but without the STS in the room, the Mythos 1's are very impressive. I also have demo'd them over and over again and as good as the STS are at everything they do, the 1's are a very good sounding speaker. What I noticed with them is setup. Setup setup setup setup. This is the key to them. Most wanna run them in "large" setting. I disagree. They sound much better with a small setting , 60hz crossover and a killer bottom end sub thats quick and musical. In this setup the STS now got something to worry about.

I agree with this--however, I would point out that the Mythos Ones (like the rest of the non-powered Mythos line) were never intended for use without a sub. (Essentially, a pair of STS's are Mythos Fours (albeit with the new tweeter/racetrack midbass unit) with dual subs and an ideal crossover--which is why they sound better than a pair of sub-less Mythos Ones.)

I ended up testing the Mythos Fours versus the Mythos Ones in my particular room. While both sounded good, the Mythos Ones had the edge given their greater size.

Therefore, IMHO (and that's all it is ) a properly setup pair of Mythos Ones with 2 strong subs would probably not only give the STS a run for the money, but would likely have more headroom on the low end if the subs were of sufficient power and quality.
post #1297 of 5540
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jcbudnyjr View Post

. . .For anyone jumping on the ones right now, make sure you audition them prior to buying them because they definitely are not ST's or STS's.

As noted above, you need a sub for any of the non-powered Mythos line to sound like they were designed to. The Mythos line was designed without a midbass "hump" to enhance clarity and require a sub to do the heavy lifting down low. The combination sounds great. The "naked" Mythos--not so much, especially when compared with their powered brothers. (That said, while there may be benefits to the new tweeter/racetrack, etc., these advantages are likely overwhelmed by the advantage of sub vs. no sub)

Therefore, when comparing the powered STS/ST with the rest of the Mythos line, you may wish to test the non-powered Mythos with one or more subs to see what they are meant to sound like before rendering a final verdict.

PS: Before anyone gets the wrong idea from my last 2 posts--I'm not hating on the ST/STS's--they are amazing speakers. I just wanted to point out that it's not fair to put the Ones in a gun fight armed only with a knife.
post #1298 of 5540
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by NOLA View Post

Mantis,

Thanks for the feedback...
I'm using M4's as my rear surrounds and surround backs. I have an HSU VTF3-MK3 subwoofer and a Pioneer Elite SC-27 receiver. My receiver will let me set the front speakers to small but only gives me a crossover point of 50 Hz on the low end. The step up is 80 Hz (no option for 60Hz). I assume that I should set the crossover point to 50 Hz on my receiver and set the crossover to "in" on my subwoofer with the frequency at 50 Hz. I can then run MACC (Audyssey knockoff) on the receiver to set the sub/speaker levels. Please forgive my ignorance, but does that sound like the right approach to you?

Many manufacturers tend to exaggerate their speakers capability to functionally play at the low end (Def Tech included). In addition, we'd all like to think our speakers are flat all the way down 10 Hz .

Whichever speaker is able to more easily play the notes at a given frequency level should determine where you set your crossover. The major disadvantage of setting the crossover "too high" is localization of the sub. The major disadvantage of setting the crossover too low is the loss of clarity as the mains struggle with the low end.

Given that many systems have subs that play better "high" than speakers that play better "low", I suspect that 80Hz will work a little better for you than 50Hz, but both would probably be acceptable--a listening test in your particular environment will tell the tale for you (You'll just have to work hard in "forgetting" where the sub is located in order to get a fair test )
post #1299 of 5540
Quote:
Originally Posted by mvp2005fan View Post

I agree with this--however, I would point out that the Mythos Ones (like the rest of the non-powered Mythos line) were never intended for use without a sub. (Essentially, a pair of STS's are Mythos Fours (albeit with the new tweeter/racetrack midbass unit) with dual subs and an ideal crossover--which is why they sound better than a pair of sub-less Mythos Ones.)

I ended up testing the Mythos Fours versus the Mythos Ones in my particular room. While both sounded good, the Mythos Ones had the edge given their greater size.

Therefore, IMHO (and that's all it is ) a properly setup pair of Mythos Ones with 2 strong subs would probably not only give the STS a run for the money, but would likely have more headroom on the low end if the subs were of sufficient power and quality.


MSRP for a pair of STS is $3000
MSRP for a pair of Mythos 1 is $2000

Buying 2 subs for the Mythos 1 that would allow it to surpass the STS system in sound quality would cost considerably more than the $3000, so theoretically it should sound better.

In my own case, the Paradigm PDR-10 sub will be unplugged for good this weekend. I have such big eyes for expensive subs right now that I think a few months of listening to the Ones without a sub will be a good tonic for my wallet. I figure I'll settle for a lot less sometime this winter or next spring than I would now, simply because by then almost anything would be an improvement.
post #1300 of 5540
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by mrjktcvs View Post

MSRP for a pair of STS is $3000
MSRP for a pair of Mythos 1 is $2000

Buying 2 subs for the Mythos 1 that would allow it to surpass the STS system in sound quality would cost considerably more than the $3000, so theoretically it should sound better.

Your point is very well taken! I ended up spending several hundred dollars more for Ones with dual subs than a pair of STS would have cost; however, the combo was less than the ST's, since I got the Ones at a substantial discount. I just felt the increased bass headroom over the ST/STS's and the placement flexibility were worth the trade offs for me.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mrjktcvs View Post

In my own case, the Paradigm PDR-10 sub will be unplugged for good this weekend. I have such big eyes for expensive subs right now that I think a few months of listening to the Ones without a sub will be a good tonic for my wallet. I figure I'll settle for a lot less sometime this winter or next spring than I would now, simply because by then almost anything would be an improvement.

You have a lot of patience!
post #1301 of 5540
Quote:
Originally Posted by mrjktcvs View Post

MSRP for a pair of STS is $3000
MSRP for a pair of Mythos 1 is $2000

Buying 2 subs for the Mythos 1 that would allow it to surpass the STS system in sound quality would cost considerably more than the $3000, so theoretically it should sound better.

In my own case, the Paradigm PDR-10 sub will be unplugged for good this weekend. I have such big eyes for expensive subs right now that I think a few months of listening to the Ones without a sub will be a good tonic for my wallet. I figure I'll settle for a lot less sometime this winter or next spring than I would now, simply because by then almost anything would be an improvement.


Yep, but the thing driving the Mythos One purchases is the fire sale prices on silver. I can easily add a very nice sub or two given the fact I paid so little for the One's and still come out ahead financially. I'll also have greater flexibility with placement and I'll be surprised if there's more than minutes of degrees difference in sound quality to all but the most discerning listener.
post #1302 of 5540
I too bought the silvers at a ridiculous price. I was just playing the devil's advocate here, or at least theorizing when buying blacks.

Even so, the new wife's approval was lukewarm, so that is part of the factor as to why a new sub or two is not yet part of the equation.
post #1303 of 5540
Quote:
Originally Posted by NOLA View Post

...
I'm using M4's as my rear surrounds and surround backs. I have an HSU VTF3-MK3 subwoofer and a Pioneer Elite SC-27 receiver. My receiver will let me set the front speakers to small but only gives me a crossover point of 50 Hz on the low end. The step up is 80 Hz (no option for 60Hz). I assume that I should set the crossover point to 50 Hz on my receiver and set the crossover to "in" on my subwoofer with the frequency at 50 Hz. I can then run MACC (Audyssey knockoff) on the receiver to set the sub/speaker levels. Please forgive my ignorance, but does that sound like the right approach to you?

Quote:
Originally Posted by mvp2005fan View Post

Many manufacturers tend to exaggerate their speakers capability to functionally play at the low end (Def Tech included). In addition, we'd all like to think our speakers are flat all the way down 10 Hz .

Whichever speaker is able to more easily play the notes at a given frequency level should determine where you set your crossover. The major disadvantage of setting the crossover "too high" is localization of the sub. The major disadvantage of setting the crossover too low is the loss of clarity as the mains struggle with the low end.

Given that many systems have subs that play better "high" than speakers that play better "low", I suspect that 80Hz will work a little better for you than 50Hz, but both would probably be acceptable--a listening test in your particular environment will tell the tale for you (You'll just have to work hard in "forgetting" where the sub is located in order to get a fair test )

I agree with mvp2005fan's points and second the notion that you should crossover at 80Hz.

At the risk of sounding like a broken record, when you set your SC-27's crossover to 50Hz, you throw away all the LFE above 50Hz. This LFE is not transferred to the mains, it is just gone. That is not a good tradeoff. Unless you have the sub very close to your listening position, or run it so "hot" that it's response above the crossover overwhelms the mains, you cannot localize an 80Hz sound (proved by double blind lab tests), so there is nothing to gain by setting the crossover lower except maybe some "bragging rights".
post #1304 of 5540
Quote:
Originally Posted by mrjktcvs View Post

I too bought the silvers at a ridiculous price. I was just playing the devil's advocate here, or at least theorizing when buying blacks...

Even with blacks, I think the available discounts on Ones are sharper than with STS's. At least that was the case a while back when I last looked into it. A valid case can be made for either approach. It depends on individual circumstances.
post #1305 of 5540
Quote:
Originally Posted by mr7perfect View Post

I have been scouring replies about people's setups for the mythos series, but I was wondering how the setup of 2 Mythos One speakers for the Front L/R and then 2 Mythos Five speakers for the Rear surround. I am also thinking about getting Mythos Three for a center and then ED A3-300 for a sub.

My suggestion is to get a Mythos Eight for the center. About $100 more than the Mythos Three.

Mythos 1's have 5 1/4" drivers, as does the Mythos 8 center channel. But the Mythos 3 has smaller, 4 1/2" drivers. Think about a movie, as a sound moves from left to right... the transition will be smoother if all played out of the same drivers.
post #1306 of 5540
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rebound View Post

My suggestion is to get a Mythos Eight for the center. About $100 more than the Mythos Three.

Mythos 1's have 5 1/4" drivers, as does the Mythos 8 center channel. But the Mythos 3 has smaller, 4 1/2" drivers. Think about a movie, as a sound moves from left to right... the transition will be smoother if all played out of the same drivers.

I just replaced a CLR2002 center that I was using with my One's with a Mythos 8 and it sounds great. More clarity in the dialogue than the 2002 and blends very well with the One's.
post #1307 of 5540
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rebound View Post

My suggestion is to get a Mythos Eight for the center. About $100 more than the Mythos Three.

Mythos 1's have 5 1/4" drivers, as does the Mythos 8 center channel. But the Mythos 3 has smaller, 4 1/2" drivers. Think about a movie, as a sound moves from left to right... the transition will be smoother if all played out of the same drivers.



Not to mention crossover needs that vary a lot in the proposed system.
post #1308 of 5540
Does anyone know what the recommended crossover is for the M9? I didn't see it listed on the DefTech site.

Also, has anyone compared the M3 to the M9? I have an M3 for center currently (bought before 9 came out) and have been considering upgrading to the 9. I have STS fronts and Gem XL surrounds.
post #1309 of 5540
Not sure if this will help you with your crossover point for the Mythos 9, but I emailed Chet at Def about the bigger Mythos center channels +/- 3db points and here is what he sent me.

"With this in mind, in our anechoic chamber, we've measured the following specifications:

Mythos Ten: +/- 3db 52hz - 20 khz
Mythos Nine: +/- 3db 60hz - 20 khz
Mythos Eight: +/- 3db 58hz - 20 khz
Mythos Three: +/- 3db 74hz - 20 khz

These measurements were taken with a microphone placed 1 meter away from the front of the speaker (which was placed on the floor). There was no reflective sound from the walls. However, there was a sound reflection from the floor."
post #1310 of 5540
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by knightsabre7 View Post

Does anyone know what the recommended crossover is for the M9? I didn't see it listed on the DefTech site.

Also, has anyone compared the M3 to the M9? I have an M3 for center currently (bought before 9 came out) and have been considering upgrading to the 9. I have STS fronts and Gem XL surrounds.

I am unaware of a published direct comparison between the M3 and M9, but for your purposes, I think the M9 would match your STS a better than the M3 in terms of driver size and woofer configuration.

You probably have seen this already, but Sound & Vision published a review of virtually the same system you would have if you upgraded to the M9: S & V Review of STS, M9, Gem - January 2009. I imagine you'd be well-pleased with this system (as long as you are able to get an optimal tower placement in your particular room, as noted in the review).
post #1311 of 5540
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jgeorg5 View Post

Not sure if this will help you with your crossover point for the Mythos 9, but I emailed Chet at Def about the bigger Mythos center channels +/- 3db points and here is what he sent me.

"With this in mind, in our anechoic chamber, we've measured the following specifications:

Mythos Ten: +/- 3db 52hz - 20 khz
Mythos Nine: +/- 3db 60hz - 20 khz
Mythos Eight: +/- 3db 58hz - 20 khz
Mythos Three: +/- 3db 74hz - 20 khz

These measurements were taken with a microphone placed 1 meter away from the front of the speaker (which was placed on the floor). There was no reflective sound from the walls. However, there was a sound reflection from the floor."

Thanks, jgeorg5! --great info (I'll get it up on the first post with props to you).

If anyone has any other info like this for the first post, please let me know and I'll put it up there.
post #1312 of 5540
Quote:
Originally Posted by mvp2005fan View Post

I am unaware of a published direct comparison between the M3 and M9, but for your purposes, I think the M9 would match your STS a better than the M3 in terms of driver size and woofer configuration.

You probably have seen this already, but Sound & Vision published a review of virtually the same system you would have if you upgraded to the M9: S & V Review of STS, M9, Gem - January 2009. I imagine you'd be well-pleased with this system (as long as you are able to get an optimal tower placement in your particular room, as noted in the review).

Thanks. I think I just need some encouragement - $800 is a lot to spend for what may only be a marginal upgrade. On the other hand, I have a streak of OCD telling me the 3 is not the correct center and compelling me to get the 9.

As far as the STSs are concerned, the placement is not too bad I think. They're about two feet from the front wall, about 5-6 feet apart, and about 8-9 feet from the sofa which is dead center between them.

The room on the other hand is anything but ideal. The system is at one end of a long skinny room and facing towards the far end. The left wall is solid mirrors, the right wall near the speakers has a window (albeit with some blinds), the rear wall is basically non-existent - being some 20-25ft back from the rear of the sofa, and I can't turn up the volume much without disturbing the neighbors. Fortunately, we'll probably only be in this unit for another two years at most.
post #1313 of 5540
Quote:
Originally Posted by knightsabre7 View Post

...$800 is a lot to spend for what may only be a marginal upgrade. On the other hand, I have a streak of OCD telling me the 3 is not the correct center and compelling me to get the 9. ...

I've gone through exactly the same thought process. I sent you a PM, including some info that it was not appropriate to post here.
post #1314 of 5540
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by knightsabre7 View Post

Thanks. I think I just need some encouragement - $800 is a lot to spend for what may only be a marginal upgrade. On the other hand, I have a streak of OCD telling me the 3 is not the correct center and compelling me to get the 9. . . .

The M3 is still a great center channel and was the flagship center when the Mythos line came out--it was specifically designed to work with the M1's in the original Mythos offering. (Note that DT first chose to design a center whose driver size did not match those of the mains). Despite that, this setup received rave professional reviews (there are links to some of those on the first post).

While I stand by my previous statement that the M9 is likely to match better with your STS's, I think the improvement is likely a matter of degrees. There may be other things you could upgrade in your setup for those 8 bills that would have more of an impact on the enjoyment of your HT (i.e., add a sub, get an Oppo Blu-ray , etc.)

I know what you mean about OCD, though. I changed out my Mythos speakers a couple of times until everything matched
post #1315 of 5540
Quote:
Originally Posted by mvp2005fan View Post

The M3 is still a great center channel and was the flagship center when the Mythos line came out--it was specifically designed to work with the M1's in the original Mythos offering. (Note that DT first chose to design a center whose driver size did not match those of the mains). Despite that, this setup received rave professional reviews (there are links to some of those on the first post).

While I stand by my previous statement that the M9 is likely to match better with your STS's, I think the improvement is likely a matter of degrees. There may be other things you could upgrade in your setup for those 8 bills that would have more of an impact on the enjoyment of your HT (i.e., add a sub, get an Oppo Blu-ray , etc.)

I know what you mean about OCD, though. I changed out my Mythos speakers a couple of times until everything matched

The center channel is the most important speaker in a theater setup. get that right and everything else falls into place.
With that being said, the M9 is as everyone knows the perfect match to your STS speakers. The M3 is a very nice center channel and works well with the STS. We have both the 3 and 9 on the floor and there is a noticeable difference. It's not night and day or anything but the 9 sounds I'll call it "fuller".
It's not a bad idea to get the 9. Sell the 3 and recover some of the money.
post #1316 of 5540
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mantis10 View Post

The center channel is the most important speaker in a theater setup. get that right and everything else falls into place.
With that being said, the M9 is as everyone knows the perfect match to your STS speakers. The M3 is a very nice center channel and works well with the STS. We have both the 3 and 9 on the floor and there is a noticeable difference. It's not night and day or anything but the 9 sounds I'll call it "fuller".
It's not a bad idea to get the 9. Sell the 3 and recover some of the money.

Mantis10:

Agree with your comment on the importance of the center speaker.

Had another thought--do you have both the 8 and 9 at your place? If so, how do they compare? Perhaps knightsabre7 could save some $$$ and improve the center by going with the 8?

Edit: I withdraw the suggestion--price difference negligible
post #1317 of 5540
Quote:
Originally Posted by mvp2005fan View Post

Mantis10:

Agree with your comment on the importance of the center speaker.

Had another thought--do you have both the 8 and 9 at your place? If so, how do they compare? Perhaps knightsabre7 could save some $$$ and improve the center by going with the 8?

If he is going to change he might as well get the nine instead of making another move he will likely change in the future.
post #1318 of 5540
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ascen5sion View Post

If he is going to change he might as well get the nine instead of making another move he will likely change in the future.

Good point--I just checked the prices (which I hadn't done for a while)--the price difference is pretty negligible.
post #1319 of 5540
Update:

I ran the Avia DVD yesterday. The Ones were audible down to 40 Hz, then it dropped off a cliff. The Paradigm subwoofer offered me just an additional 10 Hz on the bottom end, not enough to justify its existence.

Having read about Outlaw's sale in the subwoofer forum, I ordered the LFM-1+ . I can get response below 20 Hz with one of the ports plugged.
post #1320 of 5540
Quote:
Originally Posted by mvp2005fan View Post


Therefore, IMHO (and that's all it is ) a properly setup pair of Mythos Ones with 2 strong subs would probably not only give the STS a run for the money, but would likely have more headroom on the low end if the subs were of sufficient power and quality.


Indeed. I opted for Mythos Ones with a couple of SuperCube II's over the STS. The Mythos Ones + Supercubes offered more placement flexibility. More importantly, they just sounded better in my room, for my ears, with my setup.

For 2 channel music listening, I run the Ones in full range mode (ie, set to "large"), supplemented by the Supercube II's. For movies, the ONes are set to "small", crossover at 80Hz, Bass/LFE signals sent to the two SuperCube II's (with their gain reduced to 1/4) PLUS a 12 inch Klipsch subwoofer.

I'm very happy.
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