Definitive Technology Mythos Series Thread - Page 81

I'm having a blast! I just took delivery and hooked up my new Mythos ST fronts and Mythos 10 center. I haven't had a chance to tweak them yet, but I'm already thrilled with them.

Those ST's have solid punch, and a rich, full easy-going sound throughout. And there's plenty of bass from the built-in subs for my home theater - I won't be needing any additional LFE help.

I don't believe timbre matching is too important for the surround channels, so I'm still deciding whether to keep using my Cambridge Soundworks bi/dipole surrounds, or bringing my Def Tech SM450's down from my 2-channel living room system. Honestly, I watched some DVD's today and I almost didn't even miss the surrounds - Just the fronts alone sounded great.

I'm also looking at AV hardware. I plan to replace my Denon AVR-1800 (love it!) with either the Pioneer Elite SC-25 (on sale for $1000 at Best Buy), Onkyo TX-XR807, or splurging (and waiting) on the Emotiva UMC-1 and UPA-5.

Finally, I'm planning on replacing my old Pioneer DVD player with the Oppo BDP-83.

I figure, like my last system, that should keep me happy for about 10 years.

^^^

Def Tech Mythos + Oppo BDP-83 + Pioneer SC-25 = Excellent Choices

Ditto , get some Mythos rears and complete the experience. Look at 2 more 10's for the rears , if you listen to multichannel music (SACD DVD AUDIO) you will love the 10's in the back. For concert dvd's they also rip it up. I think the 10's are the best all around rear channel speaker for the ST fronts. They are the perfect choice.

I agree with Mantis10 and buy 2 more Mythos 10 for the rears and you will be in heaven for music and movies.He told me to buy 2 more Mythos 10 for sides and they are AMAZING as they match the my front MYTHOS ST and Mythos 10 center with same tweeter and bass EXCEPT for the powered bass in the ST.I would also suggest that you purchase a subwoofer as i just received my EPIK EMPIRE and it adds much more bass to music and movies.If you did purchase a sub you would be in movie and music NIRVANA for many years with out having to upgrade.Please look on EBAY for the purchase of MYTHOS 10 speaker as i purchased 2 speakers for half the cost of any other dealer as they were DEFINITIVE resale units and are great the same as from any dealer.Good luck as you have a great system in the making.

Hi guys,

I've actually got two STs setups: STS + Onkyo 807 in my living room and ST + Onkyo 5007 + 5 Mythos 10s in my dedicated HT room. While I feel like it sounds ok for HT, I am still not quite happy with music performance. While the soundstage is pretty wide, dynamic and instrument separation is ok, I am not happy with voice performance. The soundstage is not forward and voices are somewhat muddy and there is no drive. Sometimes I have an impression that a signer is hiding in a can behind back wall / tv.

Am I alone here with my observations? Can it be room acoustic or speaker placement (though I have a dedicated room, so that I have speakers placed 1-2 meters from walls and moved them around many times... and I tried two rooms)?

Mantis10, is this something that you've mentioned in your review on Polk's forum? You said HT is fine but there is _something_ with music / voices ? Is it something with midrange of ST? There are a couple of negative St reviews on the net and they all mention that ST midrange is muddy. Other comments?

Regards,
Anton

In a perfect world (where I would have perfect hearing and unlimited funding), I would purchase 5 Mythos ST's and surround myself in sonic nirvana. Unfortunately, my hearing, budget, and room don't allow me this option.

As for using Mythos 10's all around, well, to be honest, the Mythos 10 doesn't blow me away. My initial impression is that it's a great-sounding Def Tech speaker with smooth response and solid upper/mid-bass, but that's it. It doesn't seem to be any more capable than my SM450's or most other monitor/bookshelf speakers of decent size.

In fact, now that I own my Mythos 10, I can reiterate my previous post and say that, for most owners, it's probably not worth the premium over the Mythos 9, Mythos 2/3, or even the Procenter 2000 or 1000. All of these speakers have basically the same tweeter, so the only real difference is how low they roll off. And since the center and surround speakers will be set to small in most systems anyways (none of these Mythos speakers are full-range), what difference does it really make whether the mid-bass driver is 5" or 4"?

It made me feel good to use the Mythos 10 up front because of how much voice work the center speaker does in movies, but honestly, with most source material, I probably couldn't tell the difference between the 10, 9, or 2/3 - and I suspect most other people couldn't either. For the rears, I'm almost positive it makes no difference. Use smaller speakers in the center and rear, and let the ST's (and/or a separate subwoofer) handle the low frequencies.

Just my $0.02

As I own both STS and ST, I would say that you can notice difference in sound (though I am not completely through break-in 40 hours on ST) between them. So I would guess there is a difference between 9 and 10 if you want to have a perfect match to either ST or STS.

On another note, I have 5 Mythos 10 as center and surrounds in 9.2 setup and I also have 4Gem XL. Indeed Mythos 10 is a great improvement over Gem XL.

And finally, you do need a subwoofer for HT, even if you have ST. And I think it's better to have one good subwoofer than try to get woofs from 4 ST.

Cheers,
Anton

I originally auditioned the STS in my home and _did_ find the midrange to be a bit muddy. It was most noticeable with female singers like Loreena McKennitt. While the instruments were very clean, her voice felt hidden and detached from the rest of the soundstage.

When I switched to the ST, that all went away. The balance between instruments and her voice was very natural and clean. It felt as if she had walked into the room from the hallway.

Since you have both STS and ST, have you tried music on both? The midrange difference was completely unnoticeable for HT, but very apparent in music. If you've been using the STS for your 2-channel system, you might swap them with your ST in the HT room. Be sure to rerun Auddessey or equivalent, but I expect you will find that the ST does a much better job for 2-channel listening.

Semantics, I know. But with a pair of ST's up front, I don't think anyone NEEDS a dedicated subwoofer.

I was on the fence about adding a dedicated subwoofer, but so far, after spending a few hours with my ST's (playing 2-channel CD's, and watching concert and action movie DVD's), I really don't think they need any help in my 14' X 23' room.

Ultimately, I think it depends on your listening tastes, room size/acoustics, and other factors. You might need a sub, but that doesn't mean everyone else does.

EDIT: Home Theater Magazines Mark Fleischmann's reference speaker system consists of five Paradigm Reference Studio 20 bookshelf speakers with no subwoofer.

Anyone here use the spikes that came with your Mythos speakers? Does it make a difference in SQ? I've been using the rubber feet on tile floor (room treated with rugs, curtains, etc.).

Yes, this is exactly what happens with both ST and STS !

Can it be a problem with positioning...?

Possibly. I haven't experimented much with placement in my room. I don't have many options to begin with, but the difference between ST and STS were quite noticeable when put in the same position.

For reference, my room is 15' x 20' w/ a vaulted ceiling. The room is actually a bit S-shaped and the speakers are slightly off-center from the prime listening position. The speakers are ~18' from the listening position and backed up right against the wall. This doesn't seem to hamper the bass in this room at all. I'm not using anything other than the ST and a 10 for a center. No sub.

Have you experimented with the various equalizer and room-correction settings in your AVR? With my Denon, I found Auddessey to be an improvement, but for music and movies, Dynamic EQ and Dynamic Volume completely ruin it. They are great for TV, but bloat the low-end and completely change the soundscape for music.

I'd start by checking the subwoofer settings and rerunning any room correction or EQ calibration. If the bass isn't adjusted well, I've found it can eat into the midrange and do strange things. You might even try turning on a source direct mode and bypassing all of those to see if they are having a negative effect. If that doesn't help, play with some placement options, but those will mainly change the width of the soundstage and the bass. When positioning mine, I did notice that minor toe-in adjustments could certainly bring a better positioning to the instruments, but the overall soundstage wasn't affected that much.

A few other things to consider:
- It could be the source material. What are you using as test material?
- Have you tried swapping the STS in your living room with the ST? That would provide some additional perspective on whether the room is having a large effect.
- It could be a damaged set of ST. Unlikely, but it happens.

Ok, I was considering 3 Mythos Ten's upfront for LCR. However, I'm now open to a slimmer design tower speaker for Left and Right. I have two dedicated MFW-15 Subs, so don't need to subs on the STS or ST - would the Mythos One towers be ok with a Mythos Ten center?

Is a Mythos Ten center too much for Mythos One Left and Right?

^^^

Should be.
Same mid driver size.

You own a Onkyo receiver, they are not very good for music playback in my opnion. I find the sound to be forward and thin. The Mythos series are going to show off the flaws of your AVR. The Pioneer Elite SC models mate much better. They are way more musical and have a better clarity with movies as well. This again is my opinion.
Acoustics play the largest role in how any system sounds. I don't care how good your system is if your room acoustics are bad , your system will sound bad. There are many simple things you can do to improve on room acoustics.
When I first got the Mythos ST speakers I came from Dynaudio speakers which are a better musical speaker but lacks in the theater dynamics. This is why the Mythos ST was attractive. I wanted a more theater style speaker first then a music first speaker.
I was really judgmental on my speakers for music when I first got them. I found they where not on the same level as my Dynaudio Audience 82's for female voice and mid range punch. But after a while I found the Mythos ST to be a very pleasing musical speaker. I really like the way they sound. I'm also powering them with a different amp in the Pioneer ELite SC-07. I powered my Dynaudio speakers with Rotel separates. I had a 330 watt per channel amp which was a monster. I didn't need all that power for the Mythos speakers.

I don't hate on Onkyo or Integra products I actually like them very much but they are difficult to judge for music playback. My findings are like your findings. If you have the ability to move the Onkyo and get a Pioneer ELite SC model like a SC -05 or SC-07 the new models are SC-25 and SC-27. Only make this move if you are unhappy with your music and really want better sound quality there. If you can demo one please do.

I've had my STS's for a couple of weeks now and am finally getting them to sound like I want. My setup is using the STS and Nine for the front, and my existing surrounds for now, I am running dual SVS PB13 Ultra's, an outboard ANti-Mode 8033 on just the SVS's, a Denon AVR-4306 with Audyssey MultEQ, sources are an Oppo DVD, PS3, AppleTV with Apple Lossless recordings and an Adcom GCD-700 CD changer. My set up is in a great room that attaches to the dining room and kitchen as well as the front entry and staircase to the second floor, the area is aprx. 4200-4300 ft^3 and is treated with 8 bass traps and 3 broadband acoustic panels. Previous speakers I've owned have been AV123 Rockets, Energy Odyssey series, era D5's (now in bedroom system), Hales Revelation 3's, and others I can't remember now

As for the STS's, a couple snap judgments:

1) These speakers seem to need a break-in period to start sounding their best. Break-In took forever and was the most noticeable of any component I have ever owned (speaker, electronics, etc). I left the speakers playing while I was gone during the day with various music repeating at a moderate volume. After about 80 hours I started to notice a difference in the sound as I listened when I got home. This could all be in my head, but as most of the breaking in was being done while I was out, it doesn't seem to me to be the case.

2) Placement is not as easy as it should seem to be. The age old dilemma of bass sounding better in a different part of the room is very much upheld here. My current placement is 8 feet apart, well away from any side walls (the nearest being 8 feet from the right speaker) and with the front baffles 32" from the front wall. Any closer to the wall and bass bloat and midrange muddiness started to irreversibly creep into the sound, any further out and the lower midrange/midbass started to disappear the the speakers became bright. The Nine is mounted to the wall into a cutout in an acoustic panel directly below the plasma. It is not quite at the same height as the STS's, but the tweeter is ear level and only about 5" lower than the STS.

3) Setup makes a huge difference. I started with the basics, following DefTech's rule of thumb to run the speakers as large with the gain knob at 1 o'clock. I didn't like it at all and could easily tell a difference when changing cross over points. My current set up is with the STS set as small with a crossover at 80hz, an LFE line run to each tower and running the STS's bass drivers as "subs" with the PB13-Ultra's. The setup I have is a little goofy as this generation of Reciever had a limitation on processing that rolls off the subs starting at 30hz when Audyssey is engaged. I counter this by using the "25hz Lift" option on my Anti-Mode, which more or less seems to compensate for the AVR's rolloff when I've measured with REW (using a simple series of sweeps with the Audyssey off and on, then comparing that to Audyssey on with Anti-Mode, and with the lift option engaged). I'm not concerned about boosting a null with this as it is more counter acting a software issue and not a room issue. Anyway with the roll off in mind, I decided to run an splitter from the AVR before the Anti-mode with a LFE signall going to each STS and a third going to the Anti-Mode and then to the Ultra's. I then level matched the output of all of the Ultra's and the STS's subs at the listening position using the AVR's test tones and my SPL meter on a tripod at the PLP. My reasoning was that the Audyssey rolloff would help protect the STS's from the really deep stuff. This level matching resulted in me lowering the gain control on the STS's to about 11:30 on the dial.

While I will be the first to admit there are flaws and Mickey Mousing of the setup the end result is that the Mythos towers filled out their soundstage much more nicely then when running as large or set to crossover at 40hz or 60 hz. Additionally I am getting much better mids and the drivers are playing more cohesively. before I felt that certain instruments were coming from distinct drivers in the tower and that sounds were jumping around between each tower. Also, I noticed these towers need more toe in than I expected, I currently found them to give the best soundstage when they are aimed to a point about 6" in front of the primary listening position which is 10 feet from the speakers and three feet from the rear wall.

The speakers have a nice, clean, if still occasionally lean in the midrange sound to them and work well for movies/TV. The peculiarities of powered towers and my rooms layout have led to a lot more experimentation, or as my wife calls it, "fiddling around," with these speakers than others in the past. For example I auditioned some PSB Imagine B's and it took me about 15 minutes to have them dialed in perfectly. Some of that could have just been dumb luck, and the rest is the room, but it still came out to a lot more time to get these to work than just plunking them down and hoping Audyssey would fix the issues.

They are an interesting speaker, and can be very detailed with a great sense of soundstage height and depth, but they are probably not for everyone and every room.

Thats what sold me on the ST over the STS as I was going to buy the STS and 9 package. I also listen to Lorenna McKennitt as she is one of my very favorite female singers of all time. She is wonderful I have all of her CD's.
At my store we have both the ST and STS on the floor. I also have Installed both models many times. I kept coming away with the ST as my favorite overall. The STS is a very good speaker without the ST anywhere near them.

Snowmanick,
Nice write-up. A well articulated early progression report.
Letting the science and your ears form the basis of each adjustment as you go along is a solid method that will surely yield the best performance in your room.

Nice post!

I am curious if ST(S) are designed to be placed close to TV wall (DefTech slogan mentions "Plasma Solution", so if you think the towers should be used with TV... then this most likely means people place them close to TV wall)... I am comparing two setups now. STS in my living room (standard placement around TV) and ST in the HT room (2+ meters forward from the wall). STS subs blow me away when I listen in the living room but I don't feel any low frequency effects at all in my HT room, though I see that subs are working. I can hear and feel air, floor and wall vibration if I come to the back corners of the room but not at the listening position.

Is this something with speaker design or room acoustic? I am planning to have bass traps in the corners and other room correction but I am curious if this is going to imrpove low level effects at the listening position?

Hmm... have I bought these speakers to enjoy myself listening to the music or for self education and experimenting? I have a PhD in nuclear physics though...

Ideas?

Here's my disclaimer...I don't own the ST or STS. However, in the manual for the STS it states under Positioning Mythos STS as Left/Right Main Speakers

"To get the best possible imaging and most even tonal response avoid placing the speakers less than 3 feet (1 Meter) from back and side walls."

The following came from Al Griffin in his Sound & Vision Jan. 2009 review of the STS/Nine/Gem...

"Setting up the towers took longer than usual, mostly because the STS holds both the speaker and sub so, unlike with a conventional sub/sat system, you can't tweak the sub position for best bass without dragging the rest of the speaker along with it. When placed about 4 to 5 feet out into the room, the STS cast a surprisingly big soundstage. But its low end also sounded lumpy and a bit limited at that position. Nudging the speakers back another 2 feet toward the front wall helped a great deal to reinforce the bass and smooth out its response in our room."

Thanks, Blue

Here are several pictures of my HT setup... As you can see it's not a trivial room for speaker placement and acoustics correction... Note a large niche behind the screen / acoustics and sloping ceiling... Suggestions are welcome!

PS. You can also compare ST with STS

Looks like a complicated room for setup!

Which is why I opted for the Mythos One + separate subs. I was able to place the subs in their optimal location, which was NOT the same location as the Mythos Ones.

Is it too late to return the STS/ST and try the Mythos One with separate subs?

Mamadu, that looks like an interesting room. Have you tried moving the ST's forward/backward? Also, have you tried moving the listening position? If your sitting in a null the subs can be working their tails off to no avail. An easy solution is to buy/use and SPL on a tripod and place one of the ST's in the main listeing position, then set up the spl/tripod in various locations and measure. REW can give you a graphical FR sweep (available from Home Theater Shack, its free shareware) or you can just see what the test tones in your AVR give you with the SPL meter. Be sure to keep your body away from the SPL meter as your proximity can throw off the readings and try no to stand in the line from the speaker to SPL.

You could always buy additional subs if you feel like chasing the problem with money, and room acoustic treatments will help, but set up and placement will be the largest return on investment (your time and maybe some measuring equipment).

Is it feasible to relocate the screen to another side of the room, where you have a normal wall behind the screen and speakers? Then the niche will be behind or to the side of the people watching the movie.

If not, how about installing a sliding panel behind the screen/speakers that you can close when watching a movie, thereby eliminating that niche and creating a temporary normal flat wall behind your front speakers.

Hmm, no, I don't think it's a good idea to relocate the screen. I believe this niche has it pros and cons, I just need to study how it influences room acoustic / speaker performance.

Actually we've measured room acoustics with SPL/computer and acoustics guys suggested to put bass traps into the corners of the niche... though it sounds like we should do just opposite to get some bass out

From what I can see in your pics, the wall behind the speakers is too far to reinforce the bass frequencies. It's almost like placing a couple of subwoofers in the middle of the room---not really the ideal location if you want to hear the bass unless your primary listening position is in a room corner.

I've played around a lot with subwoofers in my room (I have owned many many brands, and currently use three subs with an external subwoofer equalizer in my main system; I have another two in the bedroom system) From my experience, the sub(s) have to be near a wall/corner. Too far from a wall/corner, and I might as well leave the subwoofer(s) unplugged because my listening position is NOT in a room corner nor near a wall.

Too bad relocating the screen is not possible. I suppose you can leave the ST where they are, and just buy separate subs for the room corner(s). But then you paid a lot of money for the ST without benefitting from their built in subs. If I were you, I would find out if replacing the ST's with Mythos Ones + stand alone subs will help...then you can place the subs in one or more corners of the room, while keeping the rest of the main speakers near the screen.

I am looking to add a quality center to my set-up. The center will be placed on top of an older Pioneer Elite Pro510 projection TV. I am currently using Escalante Fremonts as mains (no matching center made) for 2-channel and in phantom mode for HT. How do these 2 Def Tech centers compare for movies and TV? Dialogue intelligibility and off-axis performance is important. Thanks for your help.

Ken

Hi.


I just purchased some Def Tech ST floor demos from BB.

There are two issues. When there is a low bass sound such as the thunder at the end of Michael Jackson's Jam, there is a slight vibrating of the speaker grill. It is not as bad as before because Def Tech sent me the missing rubber hold cup for the grill prong. Is this normal or to be expected after some use?

The other issue is that when I connect the speakers LFE input and use the Pioneer 23 receiver test tone, I can hear a slight static noise when the tone goes to the sub. This does not occur when I use the Martin Logan Dymamo sub. I took the speaker back to BB and we tried the tone using another receiver and the noise was not as evident. Surprisingly when we tried a new STS there was a crackling poping noise which was much worse.

The BB speaker installer didn't think the noise was out of the normal and suggested sending the L and R pre-amp outs to the LFE of the ST and the subout from the Pioneer to the Martin Logan sub. This seems to work fine.

My question is has anyone else noticed a slight noise when running the test tone from a Pioneer receiver throught the ST sub? Is this something I should be concerned about?

I've experienced the buzzing grills as well. Called DefTech about it and they sent me some "new improved grills".... same problem.
Only way to stop it...... remove the grill
Have you tried just running speaker level outputs to the ST's? Works for me and no static.

DreamCatcher

The static is not noticeable when playing music and movies except when there is a loud explosion in a movie and you try to listen for the static and then you can barely notice it.

I am now using the receiver LFE out for the Martin Logan sub and the receiver preouts for the LFE inputs on the ST along with the normal wire speaker level connection. This sounds fine.

I can live with an occasional grill vibration. It's not as bad with the new rubber cup they sent me. Def Tech has great customer service.

These are fine speakers. I was just wondering if I had something out of the normal due to being displayed at BB. Thanks for your response.