Definitive Technology Mythos Series Thread - Page 83

Cool thanks.

Can someone point me to a SPL for dummies link on how you setup your speakers in this manner before you run Audyssey? I just bought a Radio Shack unit last week.

Also, is there a point where a sub 'could' out play your ST's? I am looking at the Submersive of F113 and they are expensive, but get rave reviews. Will either of these units or even the PSB Ultra 13, out shine or overpower may be a better term my ST's and 10 and Gems? I know Audyssey will help smooth all that out, but is that 'too much'?

Although the STs have great low frequency output there will be a definite improvement when you add a quality dedicated subwoofer.
I used to have two SVS PB13-Ultra subs and I am thinking of getting a Submersive. Currently I am listening without a subwoofer and I can definitely hear that there is something missing on the low end.

The Ultra's get great reviews too. It is a tough call in this range of $2kish.

I would prefer not ported so that is why I am leaning away from the Ultra, even though you can 'seal' them.

If I am only ever at this point in this house buy one sub that is in my range to buy, it would be the submersive. Only drawback to me is the finishes. If it has a piano gloss finish like the DT's my decision would be unanimous. The F113 looks sweet and it is smaller which is good for the wife appeal.

So to my question in my OP, do you think a sub of this caliber will over power or out play the ST's?

If your system is properly set up, the sub will simply pick up where your ST's start to roll off and let your system go deeper than the ST's alone.

Proper set up is the key though. If the subwoofer gain is too high, it will be overpowering (regardless of the other speakers in your system). If your subwoofer's crossover is set too high, then low frequencies from the ST's and from the subwoofer could cancel each other out and actually reduce the overall bass output of your system.

This is another reason why I choose to go subless. Personally, I think bass output is similar to television picture quality. Like most people are accustomed to watching a TV that is much too bright and vivid, and don't initially like the way a calibrated TV looks - so it is with bass. Most people are accustomed to listening to music with too much bass, so when they finally listen to an "accurate" sound system, they perceive it as weak in the low frequencies.

I recommend you properly set up your ST's, then listen to them without a subwoofer for a few weeks (and let them break in). Unless your room is huge and/or very reflective, you might be surprised at how potent the ST's built-in subwoofers really are.

This only happens if your sub is out of phase and if it is out of phase then they will cancel each other out regardless of what frequencies are playing. Having your sub/s out of phase with your mains causes a lot issues, one of those being group delay/room coupling.

As far as no sub vs sub is a whole other discussion. If there is too much bass, then your system is not setup properly. The subs are there to ensure flat response down to where the content extends.

There is more to this, but I am lazy atm. Not to mention I just had this conversation on another forum today and don't feel like going down that road again.

Hi Mantis10 and everyone else, I am curious to know how the Mythos 10 stacks up to other one wall speakers? Say a paradigm W5? (or any other recommended on-wall speakers out there?)

Thanks again

Your very welcome and I'll help you understand this better.
So First lets address your ST questions. The ST tower is designed to be a full range speaker on it's own. If you had a 2 channel only system , you can use the ST's and plug in the sub. Dial it in for music and away you go. But they are still designed for theater so think of the tower as a Full range speaker plus having a subwoofer to send LFE info to it. To add to your confusion , you not only send 80hz to 20hz or lower to the LFE input but all other channels not in large lower end. So the sub has to play all low end in the system PLUS the dedicated LFE track.
So what you are missing here is in the setup not in the job at hand really. You have to calibrate the ST tower to play full range. To do so you have to level match the sub with it's volume control on the back and dial it until you get a even matched spl reading from top to bottom. Now the speaker is calibrated for your room and 2 channel listening full range. This is not however how you calibrate the LFE channel. Since you have 2 subs in different locations , If your preamp or receiver(which all should have 2 dedicated out's like the Pioneer ELite SC-09) you have to level match the LFE to the rest of the system. So you run manual test tone to balance the subs if they are Y'd together as most only have one sub out to get balance.
Now your system is calibrated and designed to be as such. Definitive technology speakers are designed to do exactly what we are talking about. There is no external crossover point for your to set. They do that for you and match the top end to the bottom end exactly. Don't over think this.
You can run however use speaker level if you choose. I see no reason this can't be the case but you lose the ability to level match the LFE track to the room. You can't balance it correctly and have a balanced 2 channel experience as the ST is designed to run the sub as it's full range finish. Think deeper on this and I think you will understand why all of that you are worried about is trivial. Think about LFE track on it's own , then think about left or right low end info on it's own and a deeper understanding you will gain. I know Powered Towers are hard to wrap your head around.

So now lets talk about SACD. Purest way of transmission would be full digital not analog. Reason is that Analog can be interfered with and digital does not. Good high quality IC's for analog most do a excellent job of keeping the noise out but they are prone to EMI and RF. Not really a problem most of the time so using 6 channel is really not a bad idea. Having the ability to run HDMI and pass all signals digital is a beautiful thing. I do it in my system as I also use to run 6 channel analog. I find no sonic benefit either way. I used very high quality Kimber Kable IC's as I liked the braid design for shielding. For HDMI I use a high speed 1.3 rated cable and it doesn't sound any better or worse processing it in the receiver or the player. I don't have a extremely high end system or anything but I use high quality everything and don't have any balance issues anywhere in my system. It's very balanced as I hand picked every single part of the chain right down to dedicated 20 amp circuit to the speakers.
So really the only reason I like the HDMI over the 6 channel analog is not for performance rather a cleaner install. I don't have to have 3 pairs of IC's in my system I can only have 1 HDMI cable. I like that. If it didn't sound as good I would reinstall the 2 IC's for 6 channel.

My best advise for you with all this is to set up the ST and SACD both ways and see if you can notice any difference. Remember proper calibration is more important then knowing where and why by bass is going. Havng a deep understanding is great but following the manufactures best setup is the way to go. My St's are wired with 14 gauge speaker wire in Large and LFE to both using a high quality Y adapter at the LFE sub pre out. I find this setup to be very pleasing for both music and movies.

Good luck and report back what you find. Theory is one thing , real world is another. Listen and you will see.

Hello,
The W5's from paradigm are a higher class speaker and a better speaker then the Mythos 10. I find the W5 to be Paradigms best speaker. I have installed them and felt this is it. This is what I would like to have. I would gladly step away from Definitive Technology to own the W5's but they are way out of my price class.
A better challenge for the Mythos 10's vs paradigm would be the Esprits. These are stupid clear and powerful. yet another on wall gem from Paradigm. This is there finest studio level work and I would be hard pressed to pick between the Mythos 10 and the Studio Esprit. My god are they good.I did a full 7.2 system with them and I gotta tell you it was one of the very best sounding theaters I have Installed to date. I'm all about the Studio esprit's. Do yourself a favor and go listen to them Amazing. They maybe slighty better then the Mythos 10.

On a side note here , most on wall speakers are not the best for 2 channel music. It's difficult to get them right and make a KING SEAT. This is what I love about the W5 and Studio Esprit. They have a bracket that allows you to move the speaker on wall left or right. This really helps with on wall toe. I love it.
Vienna Acoustics , Sonus Faber , Martin Logan all have models like this with the ability to toe in the main speakers. This is a huge advantage. Definitive Technolgy should have this style bracket as a option. I would love to have this level of flexibility. But they don't and I don't miss it either. They perform well enough for theater. I would not choose them for a 2 channel as well system. I would go with a Supertower for the mains and then all 10's on wall.
Totem also makes really nice on wall speakers. You should give them a test drive.

Hi Mantis

thank you so much for your reply. So is w5 are essentially the best on-wall speakers currently available?

Funny you mentioned the Espirit. I was just thinking about them - i.e to possibly lower the budget and use the money elsewhere. I will definitely give them a try. But i really appreciate your comments it has been really, really useful to me. Your descriptions on the products have been very helpful as well.

Hmmm the brackets seem to be more convincing as well to go with Paradigm.

Thank you

Thanks, that was a good explanation. I get it now!

I have a question about frequency response that I can't seem to find an answer to. I am currently using 2 NHT VT-1's that have a FR of 65Hz-21kHz (+/- 3db). I am looking at the Mythos 1's and 4's for L/R speakers. The 1's FR is 20Hz-30kHz and the 4's are 35-30. What I can't figure out or find an answer to is are lower numbers better for using these speakers in a home theater? Also, why doesn't Def Tech specify what the variance on their speakers is? It isn't noted in their specs on any of their speakers. My system is about 15 years old but sounds pretty good (just watched Pearl Harbor on my BDP-83 through the analog outs and boy it did sound fine). I'm using an Outlaw 950 pre/pro that has base management so my speakers are all set to large with the sub on (as advised by the experts over on the Outlaw forum) and wasn't sure if that would make any sort of difference if I pieced together a new system with these Mythos speakers (looking at the 9 or 10 for my center and either the BPVX of BPV's for my surrounds). I don't mind spending a bit more money but was wondering if the difference in the speaker's FR is worth the jump in price. I know this may be pretty basic but so is my knowledge about speakers and just want to get the best for my theater. thanks so much for checking this out.
Also, anyone ever buy from www.tvcity.tv or www.mydigitaluniverse.com. Found them and there prices on the Def Tech lines are pretty nice but not sure if they are legit.

Mythos Ones are designed to be used with subwoofers. Actual measured FR for the mythos series speakers can be found in the link below:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...t#post15475380

^^^

Also, check out this first page Post for more frequency responses.

thanks for that info. I did find that after I posted and I understand the Ones are supposed to be used with a subwoofer. It's my original question that I still don't know the answer to. Are lower FR numbers better than higher ones?

Hi,

Has anyone seen the new Mythos XTR®-50? I just noticed it on the def tech website. Pretty slim and light (5.1lbs) on wall speaker.

http://www.definitivetech.com/Produc...ythos%20XTR-50speaker.

Yes. But if you have a competent subwoofer to handle the lower frequencies, then the main speakers' lower FR numbers become irrelevant.

thanks. that makes things a bit clearer. so with a good sub, it's more about how speakers sound to you and the environment and how well they mesh with each other as far as creating a good sound stage. anything else I might be missing or not understanding before I head out and put my Mythos system together? appreciate it very much.

Yep, you got it. It's all about speaker placement, room acoustics, personal taste, listening habits, and your speakers' interaction with other gear that you have in your system. I have a Yamaha driving my Mythos Ones, but majority here seem to feel that the Pioneer Elite receivers are the perfect match for Mythos speakers.

If you could audition your speakers in your house for at least a couple of weeks connected to the electronics you will be using, that would be the most ideal. Acoustics in the store is almost always different from the acoustics in your house.

Some speakers give jaw dropping first impressions, but can be impossible to 'live with' in the long run because they can be fatiguing to listen to. On the other hand, there are more laid back speakers that don't grab your attention right away, but won't cause listening fatigue even after listening to them for hours. Thus, long term auditioning is important.

Finally, don't buy exotic cables/interconnects. Just get good quality, thick and shielded cables/interconnects that can be had rather cheaply from Blue Jeans or Monoprice. I got 99% of my cables from Monoprice, and have never been disappointed.

well after that comforting answer my breathing has slowed down. I just wanted to be sure about a few things before embarking on this journey. It's been nearly 16 years for my current speaker set-up and with blu-ray I felt it was time to bring in some equipment to really get the most out of the HD sound in my theater. I've already purchased a HSU VTF-2 MK 3 Subwoofer so it's good to know that was a good first step.

I've been pretty happy with my new STS speakers paired with my Pioneer SC-25 receiver. I'm going to get the Mythos Nine center channel and need to get some surrounds as well. Any recommendations for the surrounds? I'm currently considering two Gems or two XL's.

I have the Gems. I thought I'd be disappointed (but since they came as a set with the system (STS, 9, Gems) I hooked them up and have loved them.

The only thing I never could balance out was the sub portion of the STS's. I never tweaked them as much as I should have probably and was about to pull the trigger on a Hsu sub but I happened to run across a Klipsch SW-250 8 inch floor firing sub at Best Buy. It was an open box they had lowered by 10% and then had an additional 20% off. It has added just what I felt my room needed....although I probably should have just turned my subs on the STS up a little (they are still at 1 o'clock).

Either way, I'm happy for now, but my wife is about to send me to electronic detox.

Thanks for the info regarding the Gems. Regarding the built-in subs, I did increase them ever so slightly from the 1 o'clock position, and have been happy thus far with the bass performance.

I am temporarily running my system without a subwoofer.
What difference is there in setting the ST speakers as large (full range) with just speaker wires connected with NO subwoofer selected in the AVR and setting the STs as large (full range) with speaker wires and RCA cables connected to their LFE input and TWO subwoofers selected in the AVR?

HD, One thing to consider is that the recommended crossover for the Gem is 120 whereas for the XL it's 80. I'm not sure on the SC-25, but on my SC-05 I can only set one crossover for all the speakers, which I have at 80 (for my Klipsch 5.1). I think the XL will give you a bigger sound.

Of course Mantis will say (and I agree, if you can swing it) get the Nines for surrounds.

Blue

We just covered this in detail yesterday...

Well... Audyssey people say that if you set STS to small and rise crossover to 80Hz, you can benefit from 8x resolution of low frequency Audyssey filters for the sub....

I take delivery of my ST's on March 5th, Mythos 10 the following week. I'm so happy to have finally decided. Time to enjoy them rather than read about them.

It will allow you and your AVR to calibrate the LFE channel separate from the mains.

Also, and I don't mean to insult anyone's intelligence, but to help alleviate confusion for others that may be reading this, please remember that the LFE channel is not just for passing sound below the front, center and surround speakers' crossover to the subwoofer. There's also a separate LFE 'track',which contains different audio information than what's sent to the fronts, center, and surrounds, that is intended to be played by the subwoofer. So, hypothetically, if you were running all your speakers 'large', the subwoofer would just play the LFE track. If you're running one or more of your speakers as 'small', the subwoofer will play the LFE track plus all the audio below the crossovers of the 'small' speakers.

Again, I'm sure this is common knowledge, but for a long time I went around thinking that the subwoofer/LFE was just for handling the low end of the other speakers. Once I realized there was a separate LFE track, the benefit of running LFE to the ST/STS and being able to calibrate it separately became obvious.

I am very interested in purchasing a Mythos system so I have a question about searching out prices for these speakers. I've checked most of the authorized dealers and the prices all seem to be the same. Is it a matter of waiting for a sale or price reduction or is it smart to come up with a system and present it to a dealer and say "Hey I'd like to buy this system from you what kind of deal can we make?" Or do you just bite the bullet and pay the advertised prices? I figured most of the experts here would have some sound advice. I'd really like to upgrade to some of these speakers (love the way they sound) just need to know what's the next move. thanks for the advice.

The SC-25 only has a single cross-over for all speakers, so that is a very good point regarding the XL's. I wish I could afford Nines for the surrounds, but it's unfortunately over my budget.

That said, anyone using XL's as surrounds with the STS? If so, may I ask how it's working out?