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Definitive Technology Mythos Series Thread - Page 147

post #4381 of 5241
1/17/12 at 10:24am
Do you guys run the 8080 "Large" or "Small?"

What crossover frequency are you using (if any)?
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post #4382 of 5241
1/17/12 at 10:34am
Yea I'm still waiting on Baja to re-stock the 8080 on ebay...
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post #4383 of 5241
1/17/12 at 11:04am
Quote:
Originally Posted by palmfish View Post

Do you guys run the 8080 "Large" or "Small?"

What crossover frequency are you using (if any)?


I'm running mine small @ 80hz.
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post #4384 of 5241
1/17/12 at 11:10am
Does anyone have a pair of mythos gem XL's for sale?
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post #4385 of 5241
1/17/12 at 11:17am
Quote:
Originally Posted by leroyjr1 View Post


I'm running mine small @ 80hz.

Mine is set to large at I believe around 40 or was it 60? I don't have a dedicated subwoofer yet... So my mythos ST towers have that burden. I thought running them large was the way to go... According to the manual, when using high and low level inputs. Although thinking about it now.... Probably best to set as small and at 80hz as all the standards point that direction.
I should probably never have gotten powered towers and center. Mainly because you normally are supposed to have all speakers set to small crossed over at 80hz... Which really defeats the concept of large full range mains. The subs purpose is to handle all that non direct Freq range anyways and handle it in a much more and percise manor. Just my 2 cents.... I could just as equally be wrong in that thought process as well.
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post #4386 of 5241
1/17/12 at 2:41pm
Thanks for the feedback.

I'm going to have to audition the 8080 and seriously think about picking one up. I don't understand how it can sound so much better than the 10 - especially crossed over at 80Hz, but with the dramatic improvement you are hearing, I'm definitely intrigued.
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post #4387 of 5241
1/17/12 at 2:41pm
Thanks for the feedback.

I'm going to have to audition the 8080 and seriously think about picking one up. I don't understand how it can sound so much better than the 10 - especially crossed over at 80Hz, but with the dramatic improvement you are hearing, I'm definitely intrigued.
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post #4388 of 5241
1/17/12 at 4:01pm
Don't get me wrong.... There was definately a Dramatic difference between the mythos 10 and the 8080hd.... Big difference.... But in my case, I don't have a dedicated sub yet and my towers wear that burden. I also purchased all my speakers before researching and spent a grip of $$$$ to do it in the mind set of all speakers should be full range. Now that I'm a bit more tuned in to what's really needed.... I would have gotten some high end mid to high range speakers all around and a couple of kickin subs to go with it.... We all have read it everywhere that typically or shall I say (THX) and alike.... All speakers Small set to 80hz. With that said... Large and full range speakers with subs built in is a moot point right? This is in consideration for multi channel setup. I could see full range with powered subs for the 2 channel realm...
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post #4389 of 5241
1/17/12 at 4:23pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hvacins View Post

Don't get me wrong.... There was definately a Dramatic difference between the mythos 10 and the 8080hd.... Big difference.... But in my case, I don't have a dedicated sub yet and my towers wear that burden. I also purchased all my speakers before researching and spent a grip of $$$$ to do it in the mind set of all speakers should be full range. Now that I'm a bit more tuned in to what's really needed.... I would have gotten some high end mid to high range speakers all around and a couple of kickin subs to go with it.... We all have read it everywhere that typically or shall I say (THX) and alike.... All speakers Small set to 80hz. With that said... Large and full range speakers with subs built in is a moot point right?

No, not a moot point.

Generally, small speakers and separate sub(s) are better because the spot in your room for the best bass response rarely coincides with where your main speakers are located. Separate subs give you much better placement flexibility to better match your room response.

Having powered towers is usually a compromise in sound, but EQ can largely compensate for room response and the convenience and aesthetics of having the speakers and subs in the same box is very appealing for most home theaters located in normal living spaces.

If I were starting over from scratch, I honestly don't know if I would choose the ST's again. Even though I am very pleased with my DefTechs, I would probably go with a sat/multi-sub system.
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post #4390 of 5241
1/17/12 at 4:33pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by palmfish View Post

No, not a moot point.

Generally, small speakers and separate sub(s) are better because the spot in your room for the best bass response rarely coincides with where your main speakers are located. Separate subs give you much better placement flexibility to better match your room response.

Having powered towers is usually a compromise in sound, but EQ can largely compensate for room response and the convenience and aesthetics of having the speakers and subs in the same box is very appealing for most home theaters located in normal living spaces.

If I were starting over from scratch, I honestly don't know if I would choose the ST's again. Even though I am very pleased with my DefTechs, I would probably go with a sat/multi-sub system.

Hey Palmfish, after reading this post I could hear your words "Diminishings returns" go off in my head. If I get a chance I with check out the 8080 too. As much as we both love our individual systems, it sounds like we both have hit that "Diminishing returns" point. I know I have. Love my power amps but I know I am passed overkill.
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post #4391 of 5241
1/17/12 at 4:39pm
Agreed... Same here.... I do love the way everything sounds. I'll just shift these def techs to my living room and do it all over again in the HT room!!! Lol... Blown a good amount of scratch already, why not just throw some more at it they will still be put to good use none the less.
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post #4392 of 5241
1/17/12 at 5:49pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hvacins View Post

Agreed... Same here.... I do love the way everything sounds. I'll just shift these def techs to my living room and do it all over again in the HT room!!! Lol... Blown a good amount of scratch already, why not just throw some more at it they will still be put to good use none the less.

If you don't have a sub and listen to music then the ST's I am sure they sound great as full range?
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post #4393 of 5241
1/17/12 at 6:23pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by cdnbum88 View Post


If you don't have a sub and listen to music then the ST's I am sure they sound great as full range?

Yes.... They sound awesome as full range in pure 2 channel.... Just probably not put to good use in a X.1+ multi channel setup....
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post #4394 of 5241
1/17/12 at 6:31pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by palmfish View Post


No, not a moot point.

Generally, small speakers and separate sub(s) are better because the spot in your room for the best bass response rarely coincides with where your main speakers are located. Separate subs give you much better placement flexibility to better match your room response.

Having powered towers is usually a compromise in sound, but EQ can largely compensate for room response and the convenience and aesthetics of having the speakers and subs in the same box is very appealing for most home theaters located in normal living spaces.

If I were starting over from scratch, I honestly don't know if I would choose the ST's again. Even though I am very pleased with my DefTechs, I would probably go with a sat/multi-sub system.

Palmfish:

I think I found the Holy Grail to solve the large full range speaker setup.... Check out this preamp and also look at the TEQ under room correction equipment. This looks like the answer for using Large Powered Full Range speakers.


Although its not very pretty to look at.... But function will definately out weigh that issue.

http://www.ada.net/products/ht/cinem...sody_mach4.php
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post #4395 of 5241
1/17/12 at 6:35pm
What really caught my eye on the pre-pro was they flat out address the large speaker and multiple subwoofer (if used) issues.... And that TEQ room correction equalizer is far out!!!!! Please guys check this out and let me know what your thoughts are.... I might invest in this and keep my DefTech's after all.
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post #4396 of 5241
1/17/12 at 6:45pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by palmfish View Post

Do you guys run the 8080 "Large" or "Small?"

What crossover frequency are you using (if any)?

Running small and crossed at 60
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post #4397 of 5241
1/17/12 at 6:52pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hvacins View Post

Palmfish:

I think I found the Holy Grail to solve the large full range speaker setup.... Check out this preamp and also look at the TEQ under room correction equipment. This looks like the answer for using Large Powered Full Range speakers.


Although its not very pretty to look at.... But function will definately out weigh that issue.

http://www.ada.net/products/ht/cinem...sody_mach4.php

"This makes it possible for the Cinema Rhapsody Mach IV to work with full-range speakers, permitting them to play bass information while at the same time summing the bass of full-range channels with channels that are rolled off as well as the LFE (low frequency effects or ".1") channel. The subwoofer (speaker best designed to deliver bass) plays the bass from all channels simultaneously with the other speakers that are capable of delivering bass. With any other preamp, full range speakers would need to "roll-off" (not play bass) so that the subwoofer would play the bass."

If I'm reading this correctly, this is no different than setting your towers to "LARGE" and entering "Subwoofer NO" in your processor.
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post #4398 of 5241
1/17/12 at 6:56pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by palmfish View Post

Thanks for the feedback.

I'm going to have to audition the 8080 and seriously think about picking one up. I don't understand how it can sound so much better than the 10 - especially crossed over at 80Hz, but with the dramatic improvement you are hearing, I'm definitely intrigued.

Having a "close to full range" center with a built in sub puts less stress on the mids and allows the vocals to shine through. In essence, I just think the built in sub allows the mids to work more efficiently? Also, allows a better blending with a separate sub. The deeper your center will play, the better it will theoretically blend with your dedicated sub. The 8080 is the real deal.
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post #4399 of 5241
1/17/12 at 7:01pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Maddmaster View Post

Hey Palmfish, after reading this post I could hear your words "Diminishings returns" go off in my head. If I get a chance I with check out the 8080 too. As much as we both love our individual systems, it sounds like we both have hit that "Diminishing returns" point. I know I have. Love my power amps but I know I am passed overkill.



And yet nobody has offered an opinion on how a powered CC can sound better than a normal CC when using a 80 Hz crossover point.

Frequency response (on and off-axis) should be a far larger determinant on SQ than the presence of a built-in amp. And since both of these CC speakers have a horizontal D'Appolito array, both speakers should be similarly flawed in this respect.

I don't get it, but I'm willing to check it out for myself.
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post #4400 of 5241
1/17/12 at 8:11pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by palmfish View Post


"This makes it possible for the Cinema Rhapsody Mach IV to work with full-range speakers, permitting them to play bass information while at the same time summing the bass of full-range channels with channels that are rolled off as well as the LFE (low frequency effects or ".1") channel. The subwoofer (speaker best designed to deliver bass) plays the bass from all channels simultaneously with the other speakers that are capable of delivering bass. With any other preamp, full range speakers would need to "roll-off" (not play bass) so that the subwoofer would play the bass."

If I'm reading this correctly, this is no different than setting your towers to "LARGE" and entering "Subwoofer NO" in your processor.

I think you read it wrong.... It's saying you would be able to set any speaker to "large" and have a subwoofer as well. The subwoofer would recieve all frequencies below whatever crossover setting on each speaker "large and small" in addition to LFE and .1 information.

"Unlike" With any other preamp, full range speakers would need to "roll-off" (not play bass) so that the subwoofer would play the bass."

Palmfish quoted:
And yet nobody has offered an opinion on how a powered CC can sound better than a normal CC when using a 80 Hz crossover point.

Once again... I agree with you.... No point for powered built-in subs crossed over at 80hz. Any midrange speaker of quality can surely put out clean and precise sound at 80hz without the need for built in power assisting subs....
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post #4401 of 5241
1/17/12 at 9:52pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hvacins View Post

I think you read it wrong.... It's saying you would be able to set any speaker to "large" and have a subwoofer as well. The subwoofer would recieve all frequencies below whatever crossover setting on each speaker "large and small" in addition to LFE and .1 information.

"Unlike" With any other preamp, full range speakers would need to "roll-off" (not play bass) so that the subwoofer would play the bass."

Bear with me, I'm still wrapping my brain around this...

First, I should point out that .1 information is LFE. They are one and the same.

Also, any speaker set to LARGE, by definition, would not have a crossover setting. Only SMALL speakers get crossed over.

OK, I pulled out my AVR owner's Manual. Here's an explanation I found on speaker setup. I think it covers what we're talking about:

"SW - LFE signals and bass frequencies of channels set to SMALL are output from the subwoofer when YES is selected. Choose the PLUS setting if you want the subwoofer to output bass sound continuously or you want deeper bass (the bass frequencies that would normally come out the front and center speakers are also routed to the subwoofer).*

*If you have a subwoofer and like lots of bass, it may seem logical to select LARGE for your front speakers and PLUS for the subwoofer. This may not, however, yield the best bass results...due to low frequency cancellations."

So if you set your powered towers to LARGE, they get full-range signal (no crossover). Set subwoofer to YES and it gets LFE and low frequencies signal from all speakers set to SMALL.

The footnote (*) indicates that if you run your front speakers LARGE and set your subwoofer to PLUS, the AVR will sum the bass from ALL channels (large and small) and send it to the subwoofer while your powered towers will still have no roll off.

In both examples, you are running your towers with no roll-off AND sending LFE and low freqs (from speakers) to the subwoofer.
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post #4402 of 5241
1/17/12 at 10:29pm
Oh palmy..... Lol We have gone over a couple different routes each time bringing a new piece to the puzzle. Ohhh... my heads spinning and eyes are burning. Now are we talking about your pioneer or that ADA Cinema Mack IV?

Never mind, let's go for the pioneer cause we both have one. If you use loudness plus and sub "yes" you get LFE, .1 and all small channels below the crossover settings sent to the sub(s). The full range "large" channels get no crossover from the avr applied.... Leaving this to the built in crossovers in your "large" speakers. But the problem I see is you still loose bottom frequency playback to those "large" channels cause they are not going to produce worth a junk under.... Let's say conservatively 20hz-30hz right? So those channels below the internal crossover is forever lost and not routed to a capable, more worthy adversary subwoofer? Going backwards again... A dedicated sub(s) will most likely produce cleaner mid to low bass than our powered full range speakers. So if setting to standard THX 80Hz crossover.... Why do we need powered full range speakers? And what gain would you get from going this route adhering to THX 80Hz? I think investing in a solid say 60Hz+ rated speaker for all channels and good separate performing subwoofer(s) would be the best overall sounding solution and properly integrated.
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post #4403 of 5241
1/17/12 at 10:41pm
Never mind.... I misread your post.... Sorry I'm tired.... Needs some rest. Been fun and I'll sleep on this one. Now I'm really at a toss up on utilizing powered built in subs. My setup sounds great right now, not complaining one bit. I'm just gonna have to revisit my calibration and tweak some settings to see what works. Curious though on when i add a sub or two if I'm going to have the need to disable the powered portion on my large speakers or not? Btw.... I just picked up an SVS ASEQ1 to integrate the LFE on my ST's for the interim, not sure if that's going to pan out either.... Trial and error may be my next method.
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post #4404 of 5241
1/18/12 at 5:41am
Has anyone listened to both the Gem XL and the new SR-8080BP?

I am using these are two top surround models of different model lines.
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post #4405 of 5241
1/18/12 at 5:44am
Quote:
Originally Posted by yosh7 View Post

Having a "close to full range" center with a built in sub puts less stress on the mids and allows the vocals to shine through. In essence, I just think the built in sub allows the mids to work more efficiently? Also, allows a better blending with a separate sub. The deeper your center will play, the better it will theoretically blend with your dedicated sub. The 8080 is the real deal.

Thanks for the response Yosh. I understand what you're saying but I just don't agree with you.

If you are using a 80 Hz crossover, then your center is only going down to 80 Hz. And the Mythos 10 and 8080HD are both equally capable of doing this without "stress."

I don't believe that frequencies get "stressed." A small speaker will roll off low frequencies sooner than a large (or powered) speaker, but above about 50 Hz, neither of these speakers will break a sweat.

Vocals shining through doesn't make sense to me either. Are you talking about the mids being artificially boosted above flat or is it a dispersion characteristic? This actually sounds more like a room EQ/DSP phenomenon to me.
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post #4406 of 5241
1/18/12 at 6:00am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hvacins View Post

I think investing in a solid say 60Hz+ rated speaker for all channels and good separate performing subwoofer(s) would be the best overall sounding solution and properly integrated.

I agree.

Quote:


I just picked up an SVS ASEQ1 to integrate the LFE on my ST's for the interim

I think it will work very well - with the ST's and with any external sub(s) you end up with.

Quote:


If you use loudness plus and sub "yes" you get LFE, .1 and all small channels below the crossover settings sent to the sub(s).

.1 is LFE. "Subwoofer YES" sends LFE and all "SMALL" channel bass to the subwoofer. The fronts play full-range. "Subwoofer PLUS" sends LFE and all channels (LARGE and SMALL speakers) bass to the subwoofer. The fronts still play full-range.

Quote:


the problem I see is you still loose bottom frequency playback to those "large" channels cause they are not going to produce worth a junk under.... Let's say conservatively 20hz-30hz right? So those channels below the internal crossover is forever lost and not routed to a capable, more worthy adversary subwoofer?

The ST internal crossovers separate the midrange from the bass (and treble from midrange). Frequencies below 20-30 Hz are not cut off "below the crossover," they are rolled off by the limits of the speakers. It is true that the ST's won't go as low as a high quality, well positioned, and EQ-tuned subwoofer, however the extremely low frequency information in movies is in the LFE channel - which will go to the subwoofer no matter what. With music, only pipe organs and a few other sounds go that low. I find that my ST's (which by my ear and SPL meter extend just below 30Hz) sound amazing with all kinds of music and have ample bass for even pipe organs. I don't get that last bit of low octave rumble, but I don't crave that. On the other hand, if you love pipe organ music and want to flake the paint off your walls, just set your subwoofer to PLUS and front speakers to LARGE. And remember, with bass reproduction, most of what you hear is your room - not your subwoofer. Unless you have good placement and accurate EQ, you're not going to get good bass response no matter how good your subwoofer(s) is (are).

Quote:


So if setting to standard THX 80Hz crossover.... Why do we need powered full range speakers?

You don't.
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post #4407 of 5241
1/18/12 at 8:05am
Palmfish:

Well this has been much fun. I think we are both officially on the same page finally. I believe all powered "large" speaker types definately have their spot in the HT market. It all really boils down to your needs, budget, and space available. These speakers I think would be best suited for anything that's not set up as .1(+) In all reality.... And theory.... Keeping to the original Multi Channel Mixing standards whether it THX or another, there is really no place for "large" speakers effectively. Because we all are guilty of setting one channel or another off point of 80Hz.

As a side note.... If using the "large" and subwoofer "plus" setting.... Your really going to create something muddy or boomy.... Cause there is no way to EQ and match the "large,plus" powered subs to seperate dedicated ones. Everybody who runs "multiple" subs runs into phasing, alignment, shift, integration issues and need something like Audyessey to blend it all together properly. If your running with multiple "large" powered channels your creating more integration problems as you go. This especially applies when crossing over anywhere outside 80Hz.
Sorry to beat the bush with a stick.... But I believe the true multi channel setup has no place for "large" channels.... It's just not needed... Plus, if its power your after, then get a seperate amp to drive your mid and high range... Probably would sound a whole lot better that way anyways and without integration issues.

I still love my ST and CS8080HD.... they really do sound great... If built in powered speakers are what your looking for, I highly recommend them.
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post #4408 of 5241
1/18/12 at 8:58am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hvacins View Post

Palmfish:

Well this has been much fun. I think we are both officially on the same page finally. I believe all powered "large" speaker types definately have their spot in the HT market. It all really boils down to your needs, budget, and space available. These speakers I think would be best suited for anything that's not set up as .1(+) In all reality.... And theory.... Keeping to the original Multi Channel Mixing standards whether it THX or another, there is really no place for "large" speakers effectively. Because we all are guilty of setting one channel or another off point of 80Hz.

As a side note.... If using the "large" and subwoofer "plus" setting.... Your really going to create something muddy or boomy.... Cause there is no way to EQ and match the "large,plus" powered subs to seperate dedicated ones. Everybody who runs "multiple" subs runs into phasing, alignment, shift, integration issues and need something like Audyessey to blend it all together properly. If your running with multiple "large" powered channels your creating more integration problems as you go. This especially applies when crossing over anywhere outside 80Hz.
Sorry to beat the bush with a stick.... But I believe the true multi channel setup has no place for "large" channels.... It's just not needed... Plus, if its power your after, then get a seperate amp to drive your mid and high range... Probably would sound a whole lot better that way anyways and without integration issues.

I still love my ST and CS8080HD.... they really do sound great... If built in powered speakers are what your looking for, I highly recommend them.

I pretty much agree with you - except the part about getting muddy bass from summing the bass in PLUS mode. It's been shown that using multiple subs is usually superior to using a single sub. I'm far from an expert, but from what I've read, a single subwoofer is most likely to excite room modes. Multiple subwoofers, if placed correctly, can cancel room modes. That said, there is no reason to not treat 2 powered towers as being 2 subwoofers. Imagine having your front towers placed symmetrically along the front wall and having two stand-alone subs placed symmetrically and opposite on the rear wall. It's over simplified of course, but in a rectangular room, this is one of the best ways to optimize bass response.

Using 5 sats and 4 subs would be the ideal system due to better placement flexibility, but having full-range front L and R speakers would be an effective alternative.

Another advantage of using 2 large front speakers is if you listen to 2-channel music from a device with analog outs (turntable, tape deck, CD player, etc). With no provisions to use bass management or room EQ, large speakers are definitely desirable.

EDIT: Disregard that last bit about bass management. That's not really correct.
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post #4409 of 5241
1/18/12 at 11:14am
Palmfish:

Lol here we go again.... "LARGE" channels crossed over at 80Hz give you what as a benifit? As far as our large towers are concerned.... If your going to push below 80hz then all theories are void anyways. Simple enough for me. We could go around the block on this for months Then again, are we talking about Preference or Reference?

As far as 2 channel.... "Large" is the way to go.... But that's not my main discussion, referring to large speaker's in the multi channel .1(+) THX standard realm.

P.s. please accept my friend invite!!!_
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post #4410 of 5241
1/18/12 at 11:18am
Quote:
Originally Posted by palmfish View Post

I pretty much agree with you - except the part about getting muddy bass from summing the bass in PLUS mode. It's been shown that using multiple subs is usually superior to using a single sub. I'm far from an expert, but from what I've read, a single subwoofer is most likely to excite room modes. Multiple subwoofers, if placed correctly, can cancel room modes. That said, there is no reason to not treat 2 powered towers as being 2 subwoofers. Imagine having your front towers placed symmetrically along the front wall and having two stand-alone subs placed symmetrically and opposite on the rear wall. It's over simplified of course, but in a rectangular room, this is one of the best ways to optimize bass response.

Using 5 sats and 4 subs would be the ideal system due to better placement flexibility, but having full-range front L and R speakers would be an effective alternative.

Another advantage of using 2 large front speakers is if you listen to 2-channel music from a device with analog outs (turntable, tape deck, CD player, etc). With no provisions to use bass management or room EQ, large speakers are definitely desirable.

EDIT: Disregard that last bit about bass management. That's not really correct.

Watching this go back and forth. :-) I have the STS and I run them full range. I have a Supercube Reference for my Sub. Yes if not place correctly, regardless of Bass Management you can create problems. It seemed much of my Bass had disappeared until I move the Sub far away from the STS's. It had always worked well where it use to sit until the Towers we put in place. I actually moved the Sub about 13 ft away from the front speakers and put a sofa between the Sub and Front STS's. After that all is well again.
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