Definitive Technology Mythos Series Thread - Page 153

Originally Posted by Mantis10

I'm not understanding the Move to Denon even using the AVR4311ci. It's not a better receiver in any way.

Originally Posted by Mantis10

It's strange you feel the 9 outperforms the 10 for center duty with ST front speakers. I have found the exact opposite. I like the 9 with STS and the 10 with the ST. They are a perfect match both ways. Yes you can mix and match IF necessary as the timbre seems to be exact across the Mythos line. I have found all Mythos speakers to play nice together but for the ULTIMATE performance , I can lay down a guideline to live by when build a Said Mythos system.

Front speakers are ST , Mythos 10 should be used for all other duties including surround back. You will have the ULTIMATE Mythos system. Adding a Supercube Reference is a nice touch or 2. Not necessary in medium size rooms , the ST can provide plenty of room filling bass as I have done large theater with them without extra subs and covered all the seats well. In wider deeper rooms I found by adding a Reference sub helps cover better or 2. It's not a matter of more bass but covering seating locations.

Front speakers are STS , Mythos 9's for all other duties including surround back. I like the STS system in Medium size rooms as they perform their best in rooms around 18 x 24 or 16 x 21. Even getting into rooms around 20 x 28 they still hold their own.

Any other Mythos packages needed to be put together just PM me or address me here and I'll lay out a Mythos system given room size and placement / seating positions. This is where most people make the most mistakes is buying speakers for locations that don't make sense.
The SC-57 is a perfect match for this speaker package in all but the very largest rooms. Even then the SC-57 has enough juice to fill large theater rooms. I'm not understanding the Move to Denon even using the AVR4311ci. It's not a better receiver in any way. I actually find it to sound noisy compared to the Pioneer. It doesn't have the last word in musical abilities like the Pioneer SC models do. You are closer to a seperate sound then with the Denon which sounds like a typical receiver. With the Pioneer you get quite between the notes and the Denon you have noise. You have to directly compare to hear this difference or swap out back and forth with just your main speakers , a CD player and the 2 receivers. I have done such tests and found the Pioneer outclasses just about everything made anywhere near it's price class. I'm actually looking to shoot out the Anthem MX700 with the SC-57 as I think that will be a close battle.

Lets talk about your surround placement , why can't the speakers be mounted with the tweeter at 72 inches from floor? This gives you about 2 to 3 feet above ear height which is Ideal for all Surround formats. I have found through trail and error that placing the surround Tweeters at this height(72 inches measured to the center of the Tweeter) to the seating gives the best overall experience one can have. You get involved in the movie instead of noticing every time the surround fire. Balance and calibration is also critical in any surround system but we can go down that road another time.

Originally Posted by palmfish

FWIW, if I was in the market today, I would choose the Denon over the Pioneer too. Audyssey XT32 is definitely the way to go.

I think you made the right choices.

Originally Posted by leroyjr1


Is that based off experience or hear say?

Originally Posted by sdrucker

I'm aware that these are your opinions. Perhaps this might provide some useful clarification:

a) I chose the Nines over the Tens when I had an SC-27 (a few months before the 57 came out). Three people in our room (myself, my wife, and the Magnolia design guy that came over to our place with to drop off the Mythos) tested the Nine vs. the Ten and thought that the Nine was a little clearer than the Ten as a center with the Mythos. That was admittedly 'personal preference'. In retrospect now, I think that it had to do with thinking that a center should be neutral (enough that the front sounded like a continuous soundstage) rather than clarity, but given other changes I was making with our HT later, the center didn't seem like a priority to swap as much as, say, surrounds or how I wanted to handle bass response - first having the ST only, then a Supercube that I didn't like, and finally, after research, getting an AS-EQ1 for bass EQ and dual HSU ULS-15s.

However, once I heard the CS-8080HD in our room - LeroyJr1 sold me his on Friday, BTW, as part of a deal where I sold him my SC-57 - I realized that there _was_ something missing with the center that a larger center could give us. DefTech has been recommending the 8080HD for center as a match for the Mythos ST line , and with good reason. We have the 8080 below our TV in our entertainment center, since it doesn't fit either a shelf above the Panny G15 or on it.

b) Since I now have an extra Mythos Nine, I've been debating whether to pick up another one and use them as surrounds, or sell it if I'm happy with the Gem XLs as surrounds (flanking our couch in a 5.2 system). In our place, I can't do side surrounds without getting into wiring and mounting issues which have other consequences. We live in a condo building, and I don't want to do structural things to our walls or celing that I'd have to plug when we sell our unit in the next few years. I _know_ that ideally back surrounds should be six feet or more from the ground, but that's not practical (especially since our back wall borders the freight elevator, and I don't want to introduce those vibration issues into the room or deal with any safety risks).

I also just picked up 45" adjustable/swervable stands for the Gems, so I want to see how they work with a more proper elevation than they had before (more like 30", on old bookshelf stands I had around, and I didn't like the Gem XL stands because I thought they were flimsy and a pain in the neck to wire). But I'm open to doing Nines or Tens as surrounds. I want to see how XT32 plays with the Gem XLs first - only so much change at a time.

c) I have two HSU ULS-15s, which can reach down to almost 10 Hz; two of them to even out bass response in our room. Whether this is better than one or two Supercube References is a matter of taste (based on what I read in the sub forums, it's a no-braine due to the level of detectable LF bass at +/- 3 db and the price/value, but that's a judgment call of course).

d) That brings me to the last point: I agree that the SC-57 is a fine unit, albeit one without bass EQ below 63 Hz, and from my POV (sorry, ss9001 if your're reading this:-)), the best sounding, fully featured AVR Pioneer has ever manufactured. I don't want to go too far down the well-trodden Denon/Audyssey vs. Pioneer/MCACC argument, but Audyssey's XT32 offers something beyond even what I had with an AS-EQ1 to do bass EQ with the Pioneer SC-57's MCACC correction: as high a resolution filter for the satellite/surounds as the sub, and intregrated room correction. I made what was a difficult choice after reading the experiences of at least a dozen people on AVS I respect (like you, BTW), and weighting two other factors: Audyssey's continued commitment to upgrading its firmware (as well as Denon's), and the possibility of working with Audyssey Pro as my HT knowledge increases. Both of those were advantages for where I want to go in the future, vs. where I am today.

Are my surrounds perfect? Of course not. But like anything else in life, we have learning experiences, and I chose to go the Denon route so I could have what I considered a proper tool to get the most use out of the Mythos and my subs. We can agree to disagree as to whether a Pioneer unit is overall a 'better match' for the Mythos; at least I want to do an A/B comparison for myself.

At any rate, I still have the old SC-27 around, so if I feel that you've been proven "right", there's still another choice sonically. And I may wind up PMing you anyway with more details if I ever want to go the 'ultimate Mythos route' in our place (or our next, bigger home that would ideally have a dedicated HT room rather than a 23 x 17 x 9.5 living room if/when that comes in our stage of life). Hope that provides some guidance.

Originally Posted by Mantis10

I'm curious to read your thoughts on how the Denon sounds. Coming from 2 Pioneer SC models , you should really know how the Pioneer / Mythos system sounds compared to the Denon / Mythos.

The 8080 center is a beast. Def Tech always has a killer BP center channel and Im pleased it matches the ST's as a optional center in some cases. I have debated this very move myself not out of being unhappy with the 10 but to try a powered center with it's own bass. I could easily move my 60" Kuro up the wall a few inches to make room for it. Our Def Tech Rep encourages me to take one home and give it a run.

The Gems are fine surround speakers and if you have placement issues then maybe you stick with them. They will work in not so Ideal places better then the 9's will. But If you can get the 9's placed close to proper , I believe you will enjoy them more. It's not a bad idea to try another 9 and go for it. I'd like to read your comments on them as well.

With having 2 external subs I'm assuming your running your ST's just speaker wire in full range? Or are you running line level to all 4?

Originally Posted by leroyjr1

Is that based off experience or hear say?

Originally Posted by palmfish

How do any of us really choose gear? It's all hearsay and subjective reviews in magazines, right? Then you go to the store and do sighted A/B listening in a room filled with shelves of gear and speakers. If anyone claims they can tell the difference between a Pioneer and a Denon in a Magnolia showroom, they are either imagining it or hearing what they want/expect to hear. Often, I'll check the AVRs after the salesman leaves me alone to play and I'll find tone controls set differently of some listening mode engaged. And how do you know if they are even level matched?

All of these AVR's have very good amps built in. The only significant difference between them is how they process. And right now, XT32 is the ruler of the land.

Originally Posted by palmfish

How do any of us really choose gear? It's all hearsay and subjective reviews in magazines, right? Then you go to the store and do sighted A/B listening in a room filled with shelves of gear and speakers. If anyone claims they can tell the difference between a Pioneer and a Denon in a Magnolia showroom, they are either imagining it or hearing what they want/expect to hear. Often, I'll check the AVRs after the salesman leaves me alone to play and I'll find tone controls set differently of some listening mode engaged. And how do you know if they are even level matched?

All of these AVR's have very good amps built in. The only significant difference between them is how they process. And right now, XT32 is the ruler of the land.

Originally Posted by leroyjr1

Was just asking because how can one make a statement like XT32 is definitely the way to go if he has no experience with it. I've always made suggestions based on experience.

Originally Posted by palmfish

And right now, XT32 is the ruler of the land.

Originally Posted by bodosom

That's probably an overly enthusiastic endorsement. There are alternatives that are considered much more capable although probably not near the XT32 price point.

One thing that's quite nice about XT32 is the dual-sub level check. The procedure in this thread (or maybe the BP thread) for setting the amp gain on the powered towers is quite error prone. Of course that's assuming you're not using dedicated sub-woofers.

Originally Posted by sdrucker

Is there anything else that's more expensive than XT32, cheaper than Trinnov, but arguably better without compromising the sub EQ?

Originally Posted by bodosom

ARC gets good reviews as do the various incarnations of the Harman SFM system. ARC is probably close to XT32. The JBL/Lexicon systems are presumably a bit (or a lot for high-end Synthesis systems) more.

Originally Posted by bodosom

That's probably an overly enthusiastic endorsement. There are alternatives that are considered much more capable although probably not near the XT32 price point.

One thing that's quite nice about XT32 is the dual-sub level check. The procedure in this thread (or maybe the BP thread) for setting the amp gain on the powered towers is quite error prone. Of course that's assuming you're not using dedicated sub-woofers.

Originally Posted by sdrucker

ARC is in a similar price range as XT32 (i.e. <$2K).

Originally Posted by palmfish

I believe Audyssey XT32 is King because, for most people in the Def Tech demographic (upper mid-fi)

Originally Posted by bodosom

See I don't think of Mythos as upper mid-fi. I don't use categories like that because I think they're nonsensical. The measured in-room response of my STSs + Rythmiks is excellent. It's true I was ready for a change from the classic styling of Vandersteen but I wouldn't have gotten them if they had crappy specs or performed poorly in my room. If I want to make significant improvements I need room treatments not $100k speakers.

Originally Posted by sdrucker

Update: Leroyjr1 drove down to my area and demo'd the 8080 while we were working out details for buying my SC-57. Even not rejiggering MCACC (Small and 80 Hz for the center) and having the 8080's sub at about 11 o'clock, the newer center was clearer and had a much more firmly centered, less neutral presentation of movie dialogue (The Island on BluRay) and MC music I tested. DK about how it shapes up vs. a Mythos Ten, but IMO it's worth it. The HT should be awesome once I get the new 4311 dialed in...

Originally Posted by Joe@Definitive

Hello Sdrucker, Palmfish and Leroy,
I am so glad that you like the CS-8080 HD when Leroy demo'ed it for you. The center speaker is really critical for movie listening. The dialog just sounds better when you have a speaker that can really reproduce the lower range of the human voice. The center is the most under-rated speaker in many home theater buyer's systems... but a good one rocks. Best, Joe

Originally Posted by jomama

i've recently demoed a handful of speakers and came across the Mythos ST. i was really quite impressed with these speakers and went back to listen to them a second and third time. i was about to pull the trigger on them, but i didn't do so b/c i feel like i need to listen to a few more speakers to justify a purchase of this magnitude, which for me is not insignificant. i'm looking to pick up the sc55 or sc57 and will eventually build the setup into a 5.0 or 5.1 system.
i know this is a def tech thread, but can anyone tell me if the additional cost of the sc57 over the sc55 is worth it when paired to the mythos? also, any encouragement to take this leap may be appreciated...haah! thanks in advance!

Originally Posted by sdrucker

As a former owner of the SC-57, I'd get the SC-55 unless you get a good deal on the 57. For the extra money, what you're buying is THX certification, precision distance (which is a relatively minor tweak to MCACC), and IIRC gold plated speaker terminals. Otherwise the difference in SQ is non-existent from what I've read, if you don't generally use the THX re-equalization.

You should check out the SC-55/7 thread, particularly the first few pages of posts, to get a sense of what you'd be buying.

Hope that helps,
Stuart