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Definitive Technology Mythos Series Thread - Page 155

post #4621 of 5540
Quote:
Originally Posted by bodosom View Post

Don't do that. If you don't have stand-alone sub-woofer don't say sub-woofer=yes in your AVR and don't hook it up via sub-woofer out except ...
This is a gross simplification however good level matching can be tricky. If you have XT32 you can temporarily use the sub-woofer output to set the output level. I think the lesser versions will also do level checks but it's harder.

Fortunately this isn't the bipolar thread. While Audyssey isn't perfect the idea that a typical listener can level match and time align a multi-channel system by ear better than Audyssey is silly. Yes the buil-in amps make things a bit trickier but as long as the powered portion is close Audyssey will fix it up. Particularly if you don't make the mistake of running a center channel as LARGE/Full-Range.

Thanks bodosm,

I will re-run Audyssey and just stick with what it sets my speakers to.

If I set sub=no for the calibration, then later set sub=yes afterward Audyssey is complete, would I be ok? The reason I ask is for the bass shakers they need a signal from the receiver's LFE. If I set sub=no I am pretty sure they will not work...

Thanks
post #4622 of 5540
Quote:
Originally Posted by FantaXP7 View Post

If I set sub=no for the calibration, then later set sub=yes afterward Audyssey is complete, would I be ok?

That won't work.

Quote:
The reason I ask is for the bass shakers they need a signal from the receiver's LFE.

Then you'll have to live with the potential problems of having both an internal (DT) and external (AVR) cross-over.
post #4623 of 5540
Quote:
Originally Posted by bodosom View Post

That won't work.

Then you'll have to live with the potential problems of having both an internal (DT) and external (AVR) cross-over.


Bodosom, can you elaborate? Why wouldn't it work? Audyssey wouldn't "see" the subwoofer if the "subwoofer" was a butt shaker running off the LFE out channel from his reciever (as he explains it, I've never used them or even experienced them,but I'm figuring they don't transmit sound waves such that Audyssey would "hear" and figure into their calculations..) so what would be the harm in telling the reciever to output the subwoofer's LFE (at least the .1) to the butt shakers? He'd have to say "yes" for subwoofer or those LFE .1 would be routed (on most receivers anyways) to his main/front speakers,butt shakers would be inactive. I suppose if he ran his center and fronts "small" the frequencies below the crossover would also go to the "butt shakers" too I would think. I'm not seeing the problem...kf
post #4624 of 5540
Quote:
Originally Posted by FantaXP7 View Post

Thanks bodosm,

I will re-run Audyssey and just stick with what it sets my speakers to.

If I set sub=no for the calibration, then later set sub=yes afterward Audyssey is complete, would I be ok? The reason I ask is for the bass shakers they need a signal from the receiver's LFE. If I set sub=no I am pretty sure they will not work...

Thanks

In many/most AVR's with Audyssey, if you run the setup without a sub (sub = no) and then after calibration change to sub=yes, the AVR will defeat the EQ settings, in effect turning off Audyssey for all channels. Audyssey allows the user to change some settings, such as level and crossover, as it can "see" these and monitor the changes, but it won't allow a mixture of uneq'd and eq'd speakers to run at the same time.

Perhaps run an RCA from the sub out to the LFE in on your towers during calibration, set up the towers as large and the LFE as both/double bass/Mains+LFE (whatever the verbiage is) then after calibration switch the sub out from the speakers to the butt shaker and leave the towers as large. This isn't a perfect solution as Audyssey will apply some EQ to the sub channel based off of its measurements, but it at least will allow you to keep the EQ from Audyssey for all channels and add the shakers.
post #4625 of 5540
Thanks guys for the info,

I guess I didn't realize how much I was effecting Audyssey...
post #4626 of 5540
Quote:
Originally Posted by kmfellows View Post

Bodosom, can you elaborate?

If you tell Audyssey there's a sub-woofer it will try to equalize it. This may be harmless but it may not. This might be a use case for LFE+Main (in Denon parlance).
post #4627 of 5540
Quote:
Originally Posted by kmfellows View Post

Bodosom, can you elaborate? Why wouldn't it work?

To answer the specific question you can't change the speaker configuration after Audyssey. If you do Audeyssey will switch off.
post #4628 of 5540
Quote:
Originally Posted by bodosom View Post

Do answer the specific question you can't change the speaker configuration after Audyssey. If you do Audeyssey will switch off.

So when I was running without a center channel for a week, I didn't have the benefit of Audyssey because I changed my center to "none" so I could use a phantom center...That's too bad as I would think removing a speaker with Audyssey running wouldn't compromise the sound as much as removing a speaker and having no correction applied.

BTW, I swapped out my center, sent someone my Mythos 10 for his cs-8080. Not yet re-calibrated, and yes, DT says not to use the build in correction software on the receiver (but... I will...how can I do better with a radio shack spl meter? don't think so...)I tried the sub gain at only 10 o'clock and it was rattling my Verizon stb in my cabinet something fierce at some frequencies..will have to address that this weekend...kf
post #4629 of 5540
I would think you could get a rough calibration of your center either by ear or with a RS meter and then run Audyssey - as long as it's speaker wire only to your 8080, Audyssey should treat it like any other speaker.
post #4630 of 5540
Quote:
Originally Posted by kmfellows View Post

BTW, I swapped out my center, sent someone my Mythos 10 for his cs-8080. Not yet re-calibrated, and yes, DT says not to use the build in correction software on the receiver (but... I will...how can I do better with a radio shack spl meter? don't think so...)I tried the sub gain at only 10 o'clock and it was rattling my Verizon stb in my cabinet something fierce at some frequencies..will have to address that this weekend...kf

Nice trade.

Depending on how much room you have to work with, you may want to look at something like the Auralex MoPads under the 8080. I use a set under my 8060 for both the isolation aspect and the tilt to aim the center up more towards my ears.
post #4631 of 5540
Hi Fanta, Snow, Bodosom., KMF etc,
There is quite a bit of discussion about Audyssey here. I want to chime in that yes, it's OK to use Audyssey with our powered center channels. The main reasons the warning about not using correction software exists is that, in our bipolar speakers, correction software can see the reflected output, which is slightly delayed, and interpret it as phase error, which can be confusing. The same thing can happen with our powered centers with a sub firing up and reflecting off the shelf above. I do want to reassure you that you aren't likely to damage either the speaker or your receiver by using Audyssey. It may in fact do a great job of getting everything dialed in correctly. Obviously our powered center channels have a lot of bass and mid-bass capability as compared to lesser center channels. So a crossover point below 80 (perhaps 60 or 40) makes lots of sense. In the current versions of correction software, you have more flexibility in where the crossover point goes, which is a good thing. I hope this helps - best, Joe
post #4632 of 5540
Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe@Definitive View Post

Hi Fanta, Snow, Bodosom., KMF etc,
There is quite a bit of discussion about Audyssey here. I want to chime in that yes, it's OK to use Audyssey with our powered center channels. The main reasons the warning about not using correction software exists is that, in our bipolar speakers, correction software can see the reflected output, which is slightly delayed, and interpret it as phase error, which can be confusing. The same thing can happen with our powered centers with a sub firing up and reflecting off the shelf above. I do want to reassure you that you aren't likely to damage either the speaker or your receiver by using Audyssey. It may in fact do a great job of getting everything dialed in correctly. Obviously our powered center channels have a lot of bass and mid-bass capability as compared to lesser center channels. So a crossover point below 80 (perhaps 60 or 40) makes lots of sense. In the current versions of correction software, you have more flexibility in where the crossover point goes, which is a good thing. I hope this helps - best, Joe

Thanks for the explanation!
post #4633 of 5540
I know I've asked about this in the past but...

Bajawaverunner has a great deal now on the SuperCube I. About 300 less than the Rythmik F12SE (which I have talked about and not purchased for some time now...).

Is there a big drop off in difference between these two? From what I had gathered from other posts is the price on the SuperCube I vs. ID brands wasn't justifiable. And some say the SuperCube I is great but the Rythmik is just better...

Just wondering what people thought of that deal.

Thanks
post #4634 of 5540
Quote:
Originally Posted by FantaXP7 View Post

I know I've asked about this in the past but...

Bajawaverunner has a great deal now on the SuperCube I. About 300 less than the Rythmik F12SE (which I have talked about and not purchased for some time now...).

Is there a big drop off in difference between these two? From what I had gathered from other posts is the price on the SuperCube I vs. ID brands wasn't justifiable. And some say the SuperCube I is great but the Rythmik is just better...

Just wondering what people thought of that deal.

Thanks

I used to have a SC1 in my old small HT (12'x15'x8'), it sounds great in that little room! Most people doesn't like DefTech sub mainly (or only?) because of it's price, not the sub itself. If you can get it in a deep discount price, then they are very worthy sub to have.

Newegg was having a big sales on SC1 & SC2 back in January, they were selling the SC1 (brand new in box, not refurbished) for $600 shipped, SC2 for $400 shipped! I bought a SC2 for the bedroom at that time. And I just recently sold my old SC1 for $575 local pick up.

At those price point, the DefTech sub is a very good performance vs dollar sub even when compare to the ID companies.

But that being say, I think the SC1 +/-3db point is around mid-low 30hz only (about the same of the Mythos ST according to Chet). The Rymthik certainly could dig deeper than that.

But with the discount, now you are comparing a $1000 sub vs a $700 sub..... @<$700, the SC1 is an excellent value vs performance sub IMHO. But it's performance still can't compare to a $1000 (F12SE, or other equal value ID sub like SVS) one.

I guess it depends how much you want to spend?
post #4635 of 5540
Quote:
Originally Posted by FantaXP7 View Post

Is there a big drop off in difference between these two?

It depends on what you mean. Compare the frequency response graphs for a start.
post #4636 of 5540
Quote:
Originally Posted by landshark1 View Post

I used to have a SC1 in my old small HT (12'x15'x8'), it sounds great in that little room! Most people doesn't like DefTech sub mainly (or only?) because of it's price, not the sub itself. If you can get it in a deep discount price, then they are very worthy sub to have.

Newegg was having a big sales on SC1 & SC2 back in January, they were selling the SC1 (brand new in box, not refurbished) for $600 shipped, SC2 for $400 shipped! I bought a SC2 for the bedroom at that time. And I just recently sold my old SC1 for $575 local pick up.

At those price point, the DefTech sub is a very good performance vs dollar sub even when compare to the ID companies.

But that being say, I think the SC1 +/-3db point is around mid-low 30hz only (about the same of the Mythos ST according to Chet). The Rymthik certainly could dig deeper than that.

But with the discount, now you are comparing a $1000 sub vs a $700 sub..... @<$700, the SC1 is an excellent value vs performance sub IMHO. But it's performance still can't compare to a $1000 (F12SE, or other equal value ID sub like SVS) one.

I guess it depends how much you want to spend?

I really don't have a lot of experience with home theater subs. I've owned two sets of towers now with built in subs and before that I bought a Cambridge Soundworks $200 sub. So that was my only real separate sub. I guess what I want is a sub that I will buy and not think "well if I had just spent a little more..."

I guess I should look at a $700 SC1 as about the performance of other $700 Internet direct subs.
post #4637 of 5540
Quote:
Originally Posted by FantaXP7 View Post

I really don't have a lot of experience with home theater subs. I've owned two sets of towers now with built in subs and before that I bought a Cambridge Soundworks $200 sub. So that was my only real separate sub. I guess what I want is a sub that I will buy and not think "well if I had just spent a little more..."

I guess I should look at a $700 SC1 as about the performance of other $700 Internet direct subs.

Let me put it this way, for <$700, the SC1 is a very good decent sub to have, and did I mention it's beautiful piano finish too?

But if you have around $1000 budget, there's quite a few other better choice imho. e.g. F12SE, F15SE, SB13+ if there's some size restriction. or VTF15H if size not a concern. All could have for around $1000 +/-$200 shipped. Depends on your requirement (sub size, room size music/accurate vs movie/output)
post #4638 of 5540
What is the sound difference between the mythos series and the BP 8000 series?
post #4639 of 5540
Quote:
Originally Posted by FantaXP7 View Post

I guess I should look at a $700 SC1 as about the performance of other $700 Internet direct subs.

I don't understand this sentence. DefTech speakers are not Internet Direct.
post #4640 of 5540
Quote:
Originally Posted by bodosom View Post

I don't understand this sentence. DefTech speakers are not Internet Direct.

They are if you buy them from Directed Electronics (bajawaverunner).
post #4641 of 5540
Quote:
Originally Posted by LowTech1 View Post

What is the sound difference between the mythos series and the BP 8000 series?

People will tell you any number of things regarding the sound of bi/di polar (ish) speakers. The only way to know is to listen in your room. Any reputable DT dealer should let you audition some. The "2010" BP series has reduced the gain on the rear-firing drivers which suggests to me that the market for the "bipolar" sound is not what it used to be.

There's real science behind our preference for the "spaciousness" imparted by certain reflections but true management of virtual reflections requires dedicated channels and (standard) speakers.
post #4642 of 5540
Quote:
Originally Posted by palmfish View Post

They are if you buy them from Directed Electronics (bajawaverunner).

Last time I looked there was only a 30-day return warranty from the Def Tech (Directed, DT, Polk) EBay store.
post #4643 of 5540
Quote:
Originally Posted by bodosom View Post

I don't understand this sentence. DefTech speakers are not Internet Direct.

Just saying if most consider full retail too much performance/price of the def tech subs, the discounted price of 700 might be better suited. And perhaps I should compare it (SC1) to the $700 ID class of subs. Rather than the f12.
post #4644 of 5540
Quote:
Originally Posted by landshark1 View Post


Let me put it this way, for <$700, the SC1 is a very good decent sub to have, and did I mention it's beautiful piano finish too?

But if you have around $1000 budget, there's quite a few other better choice imho. e.g. F12SE, F15SE, SB13+ if there's some size restriction. or VTF15H if size not a concern. All could have for around $1000 +/-$200 shipped. Depends on your requirement (sub size, room size music/accurate vs movie/output)

Yea, I see what you're saying. Now I'm back to wanting a f12se.

Thanks
post #4645 of 5540
Quote:
Originally Posted by FantaXP7 View Post

And perhaps I should compare it (SC1) to the $700 ID class of subs. Rather than the f12.

Well to be fair you'd have to use "refurb" speakers from all parties in your comparison. Although my understanding is that used Rythmiks are hard to find.

Full disclosure -- I have two Rythmik F12SEs supporting my STS fronts. I don't think that makes me biased but you never know.
post #4646 of 5540
Quote:
Originally Posted by bodosom View Post

People will tell you any number of things regarding the sound of bi/di polar (ish) speakers. The only way to know is to listen in your room. Any reputable DT dealer should let you audition some. The "2010" BP series has reduced the gain on the rear-firing drivers which suggests to me that the market for the "bipolar" sound is not what it used to be.

There's real science behind our preference for the "spaciousness" imparted by certain reflections but true management of virtual reflections requires dedicated channels and (standard) speakers.

So are you saying the bipolar 2010 def techs are a gimmick? What about Mirage.. I listened to some Mirage today and you can definitely hear the omnipolar sound.. I'm still trying to hear the bipolar sound of the def techs..I own the 8060's.
post #4647 of 5540
I had a SC1 and currently have an F12SE. The Supercube 1 to me was a fantastic sub for it's size. It didn't dig as low as many but in the world of subs it's just a little guy. The F12 digs deeper and is more musical, I'll be adding a second one soon. My mains are STS and the F12 blends seamlessly.
post #4648 of 5540
Quote:
Originally Posted by LowTech1 View Post

So are you saying the bipolar 2010 def techs are a gimmick?

Not at all. I'm saying DT changed their design in ways that might seem heretical to old-school BP7000 owners and I'm saying there are better ways to inject desirable reflections into a room than bipolar speakers.
post #4649 of 5540
Like how?
post #4650 of 5540
Quote:
Originally Posted by bodosom View Post

[snip] The "2010" BP series has reduced the gain on the rear-firing drivers which suggests to me that the market for the "bipolar" sound is not what it used to be.

There's real science behind our preference for the "spaciousness" imparted by certain reflections but true management of virtual reflections requires dedicated channels and (standard) speakers.

The idea of different gains/levels for the front rear drivers isn't all that new either. I still have a set of Energy A3+2's that were designed by John Tchilingurian in the 1990's. Here's a http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/volume_5_4/energyaudissey3+2speakers.html"]review that also has some excerpts from the designer on why he chose that design.

As there is nothing new under the sun. I'm sure the concept goes back much further than that. It's a solid idea, which is one of the reason I still have those speakers I bought 14 years ago.

As for the sound stage and spaciousness vs the Mythos, they're different. Bi-polars put out a bigger sound, more of a wall of sound, than the Mythos in my room and to my ears, but the Mythos are better at placing items within the sound stage, especially in regards to the depth of the sound stage.

I agree trying them out at home with plenty of material is the best way to audition and forms ones opinion.
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